|Tigers Johnson| Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='CincyInDC' date='17 June 2010 - 01:27 AM' timestamp='1276752460' post='893441'] so then what about this one? http://www.mattbors.com/archives/643.html [img]http://www.mattbors.com/strips/643.gif[/img] [/quote] If this is a true story then the police officer and anyone else involved should be disciplined for not following the law. Just like they would have been for any other misconduct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 and Hopefully Eduardo gets a nice settlement. Quantifying civil rights violations must be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='17 June 2010 - 04:56 AM' timestamp='1276743369' post='893433'] The writer does not want to take a deeper look..... He did exactly what he set out to do. ....Last I heard the Americans were no where near Baghdad. [/quote] Baghdad? I'm missing your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='17 June 2010 - 05:24 AM' timestamp='1276766649' post='893448'] If this is a true story then the police officer and [b]anyone else involved should be disciplined for not following the law[/b]. Just like they would have been for any other misconduct. [/quote] There is a crazy concept... hold people accountable for their actions... "blasphemy!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='CincyInDC' date='17 June 2010 - 06:36 AM' timestamp='1276770983' post='893450'] Baghdad? I'm missing your point. [/quote] The illustrator of the cartoon wanted to send a false message....propaganda per say. Just like Iraq's minister of information was saying(with smoke billowing on camera behind him) that the Americans are no where near Baghdad when the U.S. military was a few miles away from Baghdad during the beginning of the Iraq war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange 'n Black Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 That cartoon was disgusting. I'm no hardcore conservative but bleeding heart liberalism makes me sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 Still think its sad that he has to show his birth certificate. Am I going to have to start carrying that around now? I somehow doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='17 June 2010 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1276775326' post='893460'] There is a crazy concept... hold people accountable for their actions... "blasphemy!" [/quote] who said anything about the feds/cops? Of course heads should roll for this -- apparently it [url="http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local-beat/eduardo-caraballo-puerto-rico-deportion-94795779.html"]did happen[/url]. Do you want to live in the kind of country where this sort of bullshit can occur? Either the US should adopt a national id or maybe subdermal chips (whoops...can o' worms), or just admit that demanding papers from brown people is an unreliable way of establishing identity and legal status. Is what happened to Eduardo acceptable collateral damage? It won't happen to anyone here except maybe sois (because he's a dirty Mexican), so maybe it's just not that big a deal. [quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='17 June 2010 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1276777111' post='893469'] The illustrator of the cartoon wanted to send a false message....propaganda per say. Just like Iraq's minister of information was saying(with smoke billowing on camera behind him) that the Americans are no where near Baghdad when the U.S. military was a few miles away from Baghdad during the beginning of the Iraq war. [/quote] I think I see what you mean now. What was his message? I saw it as "put yourself in their (legal or otherwise) shoes and see how much it would suck." Of course it's an exaggeration, though. So I think we all agree that taking away the incentive for people to come here illegally is at least one of the things that need to happen. Make the under-the-table jobs go away by making the penalty too much to swallow. I'm surprised no one here thinks that having to prove your identity to the cops at their whim isn't a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='CincyInDC' date='17 June 2010 - 09:30 AM' timestamp='1276781412' post='893487'] who said anything about the feds/cops? Of course heads should roll for this -- apparently it [url="http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local-beat/eduardo-caraballo-puerto-rico-deportion-94795779.html"]did happen[/url]. Do you want to live in the kind of country where this sort of bullshit can occur? Either the US should adopt a national id or maybe subdermal chips (whoops...can o' worms), or just admit that demanding papers from brown people is an unreliable way of establishing identity and legal status. Is what happened to Eduardo acceptable collateral damage? It won't happen to anyone here except maybe sois (because he's a dirty Mexican), so maybe it's just not that big a deal. I think I see what you mean now. What was his message? I saw it as "put yourself in their (legal or otherwise) shoes and see how much it would suck." Of course it's an exaggeration, though. So I think we all agree that taking away the incentive for people to come here illegally is at least one of the things that need to happen. Make the under-the-table jobs go away by making the penalty too much to swallow. I'm surprised no one here thinks that having to prove your identity to the cops at their whim isn't a problem. [/quote] I think his message was to create a panic type situation. To make it look like we are burning people at the stake for being Mexican/Latino. Especially the way he portrayed the guy shoeing the governor away with a broom....the broom might as well be on fire. I am pretty sure xombie said it best earlier. I am asked for ID for just about everything I do anymore.....gas...groceries....alcohol....when I am pulled over.... Hell I am asked for ID to get ID...... If law enforcement personnel break a law or abuse someones rights then they should be disciplined. All laws at some point or another have been applied in the wrong manner.....does that mean we should just throw out every law we have because of a few instances of law enforcement misconduct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='17 June 2010 - 09:44 AM' timestamp='1276782283' post='893491'] I think his message was to create a panic type situation. To make it look like we are burning people at the stake for being Mexican/Latino. Especially the way he portrayed the guy shoeing the governor away with a broom....the broom might as well be on fire. I am pretty sure xombie said it best earlier. I am asked for ID for just about everything I do anymore.....gas...groceries....alcohol....when I am pulled over.... Hell I am asked for ID to get ID...... If law enforcement personnel break a law or abuse someones rights then they should be disciplined. All laws at some point or another have been applied in the wrong manner.....does that mean we should just throw out every law we have because of a few instances of law enforcement misconduct? [/quote] Are you asked for your birth certificate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='17 June 2010 - 09:46 AM' timestamp='1276782412' post='893492'] Are you asked for your birth certificate? [/quote] Yes... to get a passport, when I got my CDL, so my kids can play sports... just 3 right off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='17 June 2010 - 10:52 AM' timestamp='1276786347' post='893498'] Yes... to get a passport, when I got my CDL, so my kids can play sports... just 3 right off the top of my head. [/quote] you know that's not what im talking about. Have you ever had to show your birth certificate in a routine traffic stop? As the truck driver I showed in earlier in the thread? Or as this man in an arrest case? I [i]might[/i] almost understand the 2nd, although I'd argue that I doubt either you or I would have to show our birth certificate in that case, but for a routine traffic stop? And what the heck place makes you show birth certificate for your kids to play sports? Drivers license, ok, no issue there. Birth certificate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='17 June 2010 - 11:50 AM' timestamp='1276789824' post='893513'] you know that's not what im talking about. Have you ever had to show your birth certificate in a routine traffic stop? As the truck driver I showed in earlier in the thread? Or as this man in an arrest case? I [i]might[/i] almost understand the 2nd, although I'd argue that I doubt either you or I would have to show our birth certificate in that case, but for a routine traffic stop? And what the heck place makes you show birth certificate for your kids to play sports? Drivers license, ok, no issue there. Birth certificate? [/quote] Jamie... I'm not coming up with those just out of thin air. I, personally, have had to in all 3 instances. I have a CDL. I had to provide it to get that. You don't have kids so you don't understand but I assure you when your kids play sports and sports are, typically, defined by age ranges you have to prove their age, via a BC. I've got photocopies of each of my kids in a manila envelope in my console of my Explorer because I have to do it for each season of signups... football, then again at basketball, then again at baseball... the reason for the photocopies - because I they don't just have to see it at signups - they keep a copy of it. You can argue all you want, and doubt all you want, that you or I would have to... but you'd lose. Because I PERSONALLY have. So has my wife for her passport and CDL. We're both as white as white gets. As for "routine" traffic stops... I'm not going to defend or condone police officers' jobs - they have it hard and there isn't any way on Earth I'd do it. Screwups are made... just like in every line of work. They happen. Punish the person that mis-applies the law... not the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='17 June 2010 - 12:58 PM' timestamp='1276793924' post='893524'] Jamie... I'm not coming up with those just out of thin air. I, personally, have had to in all 3 instances. I have a CDL. I had to provide it to get that. You don't have kids so you don't understand but I assure you when your kids play sports and sports are, typically, defined by age ranges you have to prove their age, via a BC. I've got photocopies of each of my kids in a manila envelope in my console of my Explorer because I have to do it for each season of signups... football, then again at basketball, then again at baseball... the reason for the photocopies - because I they don't just have to see it at signups - they keep a copy of it. You can argue all you want, and doubt all you want, that you or I would have to... but you'd lose. Because I PERSONALLY have. So has my wife for her passport and CDL. We're both as white as white gets. [/quote] I'm not arguing with you about instances where you need to provide a BL in such as the CDL, I agree that there are instance in which you have to provide a BL (I did for my security clearance investigation). I'm arguing with you on the thing you're either willfully ignoring or just dont care about. The notion that someone who gets pulled over on a routine traffic stop should have to show his BL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 Except the case in AZ of the truck driver they asked ICE and ICE said that was SOP so this isnt just a bad cop misapplying the law, it's SOP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 Idiots...going some place where it is established well in advance that you need bring X,Y,Z (birth certificate, Social security card, passport) is COMPLETELY different than being expected to carry these things on you at all times. There is a reason people are TOLD to keep these items in a saftey deposit box or a safe...so you don't lose them or to a lesser degree have them stolen! They are essentially the most important documents in anyone's life, they prove you exist! If all these guys had to do was show a drivers liscense (aka the verbal semen spewd by the "I get asked for my ID when blah blah blah" crowd here) there wouldn't be a problem because most of them probably have one...which is another issue because IMO it should be a thousand times harder for ANYONE to get a fucking drivers liscense and they should re-test every 10 years. I got side swiped by white-haired dinosaur last week who, at that moment, I'm pretty sure thought she was cooking waffels and not driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='17 June 2010 - 01:16 PM' timestamp='1276794965' post='893528'] Except the case in AZ of the truck driver they asked ICE and ICE said that was SOP so this isnt just a bad cop misapplying the law, it's SOP. [/quote] What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='17 June 2010 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1276805941' post='893570'] What? [/quote] I may not have posted it, and I'm too lazy to go back and look. But the department of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) was asked by the local news with regard to that truck driver being pulled over and asked to show his birth certificate, they said doing that was standard operating procedure. I ask SOP for who? And why is asking for a BC, SOP when making routine stops to check the drivers load? I get a drivers license (in his case a CDL), but as Squirrlnutz said why would anyone carry their BC's that stuff should be secured at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 Ok here is what I am talking about... http://iowaindependent.com/32851/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate You will notice in the article that ICE is saying this is SOP. Asking for a Birth Certificate, and apparently I missed this one, a social security card. Is standard operating procedure at routine stops. Does anyone believe they ask for them for all people, and that it's SOP for all people? I would be surprised. And further isnt that a bit much in the way of identification? Should people now be carrying their BC's and SSC's in AZ? And if their laws are adopted elsewhere should we be carrying all those documents on us at all times? And does anyone really believe that anyone other than brown people will be asked for the extra documentation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 sOP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 No in this case we arent talking about Son of Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='17 June 2010 - 09:46 AM' timestamp='1276782412' post='893492'] Are you asked for your birth certificate? [/quote] Before the legal requirement of crossing our borders via the land routes and to get my passport and a copy of my Social Security card, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='17 June 2010 - 02:21 PM' timestamp='1276798918' post='893548'] Idiots...going some place where it is established well in advance that you need bring X,Y,Z (birth certificate, Social security card, passport) is COMPLETELY different than being expected to carry these things on you at all times. There is a reason people are TOLD to keep these items in a saftey deposit box or a safe...so you don't lose them or to a lesser degree have them stolen! They are essentially the most important documents in anyone's life, they prove you exist! If all these guys had to do was show a drivers liscense (aka the verbal semen spewd by the "I get asked for my ID when blah blah blah" crowd here) there wouldn't be a problem because most of them probably have one...which is another issue because IMO it should be a thousand times harder for ANYONE to get a fucking drivers liscense and they should re-test every 10 years. I got side swiped by white-haired dinosaur last week who, at that moment, I'm pretty sure thought she was cooking waffels and not driving. [/quote] But you forget, you obvious 'non-idiot' *chuckles*, that there are states that issue DLs to illegal immigrants; 7 at the last time I checked. Also, as I deal with this issue almost daily, people obtain, carry, and use, get this, FAKE IDS!!!!!! *theatrically gasps* As some of my training protocols have informed me, some of these IDs can be obtained for as little as $40 over the internet. So, if a person is pulled over and gives the officer an ID that appears to be invalid or the ID holder doesn't exist in the records when that information is ran, it would be asinine for the officer to not take the next, logical step in determining who this person is. But, hey, not everyone is omniscient as you, seeing as how you can look at people and know everything about them at a glance... almost as if you can judge them before going any deeper to determine things about them! Wow! You can totally pre-judge people! You are damned near a superhero, sir! We can call you 'Bias, the Prejustice', or something similar! Idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='Xombie' date='17 June 2010 - 06:48 PM' timestamp='1276814897' post='893588'] Before the legal requirement of crossing our borders via the land routes and to get my passport and a copy of my Social Security card, yes. [/quote] I swear some of you completely dodge this stuff.... He was in Phoenix, thats nowhere near the border, it's in the middle of the state. At the border I MIGHT be forgiving of it as standard operating procedure, he was not at the border. Further he wasn't getting his passport or a copy of his social security card, in those cases yes I expect that you should show your birth certificate, that was not the case here. Again this also was not a one time mess up, ICE said it is SOP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 [quote name='Xombie' date='17 June 2010 - 07:05 PM' timestamp='1276815920' post='893591'] But you forget, you obvious 'non-idiot' *chuckles*, that there are states that issue DLs to illegal immigrants; 7 at the last time I checked. Also, as I deal with this issue almost daily, people obtain, carry, and use, get this, FAKE IDS!!!!!! *theatrically gasps* As some of my training protocols have informed me, some of these IDs can be obtained for as little as $40 over the internet. So, if a person is pulled over and gives the officer an ID that appears to be invalid or the ID holder doesn't exist in the records when that information is ran, it would be asinine for the officer to not take the next, logical step in determining who this person is. But, hey, not everyone is omniscient as you, seeing as how you can look at people and know everything about them at a glance... almost as if you can judge them before going any deeper to determine things about them! Wow! You can totally pre-judge people! You are damned near a superhero, sir! We can call you 'Bias, the Prejustice', or something similar! Idiot. [/quote] Then fix that system so that the DLs clearly show legal or not legal status, and make the system harder for fake IDs, [url="http://www.thecollegianur.com/2009/03/26/fake-id-users-beware-va-licenses-get-makeover/"]like some states are[/url] (i might argue you'd kill 2 birds with one stone and cut down on kids buying alcohol and getting into clubs with them along with this), but stop with the carrying several forms of identification to prove your citizenship. (and especially when the guy did nothing wrong, aren't we still a nation of laws? hasn't that been some of you guys argument? ) And again I ask, in all honesty, do you believe that anyone whose skin is not brown are being asked for anything other than their DLs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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