AZ Immigration law

[Xombie]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='17 June 2010 - 07:31 PM' timestamp='1276817478' post='893597']
Then fix that system so that the DLs clearly show legal or not legal status, and make the system harder for fake IDs, [url="http://www.thecollegianur.com/2009/03/26/fake-id-users-beware-va-licenses-get-makeover/"]like some states are[/url] (i might argue you'd kill 2 birds with one stone and cut down on kids buying alcohol and getting into clubs with them along with this), but stop with the carrying several forms of identification to prove your citizenship. (and especially when the guy did nothing wrong, aren't we still a nation of laws? hasn't that been some of you guys argument? )

And again I ask, in all honesty, do you believe that anyone whose skin is not brown are being asked for anything other than their DLs?
[/quote]


In my part of the city, the illegals from Russia is the predominate illegal immigrant population. I would hope that the same due diligence was being sought after in their cases. Other than the drink, I have never seen a black Russian. They try to pass off IDs that, I swear to whatever you deem holy, have the information filled in with a felt-tip pen and then laminated. And I put it to you to answer the question of why an undocumented person should be able to acquire -ANY- legal, U.S. identification. They should atleast be required to present the necessary documentation to obtain a student visa, work visa, or the like. That is not asking Heaven and Earth to be moved, that is simply asking people to basically sign the guest book on the way in.

And, if and when there are legitimate issues of bigotry, racism, and undue process, in what should be a fairly painless process with the available technology to run a backround check using provided identification, then hold the officers and their superiors to task to the fullest extent of the law. But if there is no provided identification and no credible information provided to the law enforcement officer at the time, I don't think you could argue there is a very probable cause to take a further look at somebody. Point of fact: I was pulled over, the last time, for a blown out taillight on the way, one early morning, to Waffle House. I forgot my wallet, therefore I didn't have my license. The officer then asked for my SSN and was able to use it to check for history, outstanding warrants, etc, etc. This took all of 10 minutes, start to finish, including his lecture about driving in pajamas. Now, if it would have taken 10 hours and I was detained for the duration, I could see an issue of an abuse of power.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Xombie' date='17 June 2010 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1276828910' post='893615']
In my part of the city, the illegals from Russia is the predominate illegal immigrant population. I would hope that the same due diligence was being sought after in their cases. Other than the drink, I have never seen a black Russian. They try to pass off IDs that, I swear to whatever you deem holy, have the information filled in with a felt-tip pen and then laminated. And I put it to you to answer the question of why an undocumented person should be able to acquire -ANY- legal, U.S. identification. They should atleast be required to present the necessary documentation to obtain a student visa, work visa, or the like. That is not asking Heaven and Earth to be moved, that is simply asking people to basically sign the guest book on the way in.

And, if and when there are legitimate issues of bigotry, racism, and undue process, in what should be a fairly painless process with the available technology to run a backround check using provided identification, then hold the officers and their superiors to task to the fullest extent of the law. But if there is no provided identification and no credible information provided to the law enforcement officer at the time, I don't think you could argue there is a very probable cause to take a further look at somebody. Point of fact: I was pulled over, the last time, for a blown out taillight on the way, one early morning, to Waffle House. I forgot my wallet, therefore I didn't have my license. The officer then asked for my SSN and was able to use it to check for history, outstanding warrants, etc, etc. This took all of 10 minutes, start to finish, including his lecture about driving in pajamas. Now, if it would have taken 10 hours and I was detained for the duration, I could see an issue of an abuse of power.
[/quote]

My argument isn't about providing a BC in cases where it should be necessary, such as when getting your drivers license to begin with (ect..) my argument is that when being pulled over on routines traffic stops (or in the case of the truck driver I posted), a drivers license should be the only documentation showing who you are that should be required, if you want to argue that they can be faked, fine make it tougher to fake them, if you want to argue that illegals shouldn't be allowed to have them, fine write to said states representatives and work to reverse those states laws that allow it, but we should not be in the business of requiring multiple documents to simply prove you are a US citizen. It should not be standard operating procedure for ICE to require that you, I, or Jose (the law abiding citizen) to show anything more than a drivers licence. After all where would we draw the line? What is too far? If a drivers licence can be faked, do I need to have the actual birth certificate or would a copy suffice? (I seem to remember a segment of our population that has issue with Obama's photocopied birth certificate) Also it couldnt a birth certificate just be faked too? Here is a report on [url="http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1745339/Print-Out-Fake-Birth-Certificates"]birth certificate fraud from the office of the inspector general[/url] (granted it is march of 88 so it is old)

[quote]. . . the foundation, or breeder document, for almost any other kind of identification for citizens is the birth certificate. Over 7000 State and local vital records offices issue birth certificates with no uniform standards for issuance processes, controls, or quality of documents. . In some jurisdictions, birth certificates are easily counterfeited, obtained through imposture, or created from stolen legitimate blank form.[/quote]

If they can fake DLs and BCs am I going to have to start providing my fingerprint, (my DNA?) to prove my citizenship? Where do we draw the line?

Remember that the truck driver in the case I presented did nothing wrong, he broke no law, he simply was getting his truck checked at a weigh station.

[Xombie]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='17 June 2010 - 11:15 PM' timestamp='1276830940' post='893622']
My argument isn't about providing a BC in cases where it should be necessary, such as when getting your drivers license to begin with (ect..) my argument is that when being pulled over on routines traffic stops (or in the case of the truck driver I posted), a drivers license should be the only documentation showing who you are that should be required, if you want to argue that they can be faked, fine make it tougher to fake them, if you want to argue that illegals shouldn't be allowed to have them, fine write to said states representatives and work to reverse those states laws that allow it, but we should not be in the business of requiring multiple documents to simply prove you are a US citizen. It should not be standard operating procedure for ICE to require that you, I, or Jose (the law abiding citizen) to show anything more than a drivers licence. After all where would we draw the line? What is too far? If a drivers licence can be faked, do I need to have the actual birth certificate or would a copy suffice? (I seem to remember a segment of our population that has issue with Obama's photocopied birth certificate) Also it couldnt a birth certificate just be faked too? Here is a report on [url="http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1745339/Print-Out-Fake-Birth-Certificates"]birth certificate fraud from the office of the inspector general[/url] (granted it is march of 88 so it is old)



If they can fake DLs and BCs am I going to have to start providing my fingerprint, (my DNA?) to prove my citizenship? Where do we draw the line?

Remember that the truck driver in the case I presented did nothing wrong, he broke no law, he simply was getting his truck checked at a weigh station.
[/quote]


I agree, but you can't obliterate a reasonable and necessary law because a few jackasses abuse it in some perverse sense of righteous indignation born out of ignorance. Legally, tear the dumbshits apart for abuse of power. And, yes, you will have to start providing fingerprints, if banks are any indication.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Xombie' date='17 June 2010 - 11:35 PM' timestamp='1276832144' post='893625']
I agree, but you can't obliterate a reasonable and necessary law because a few jackasses abuse it in some perverse sense of righteous indignation born out of ignorance. Legally, tear the dumbshits apart for abuse of power. And, yes, you will have to start providing fingerprints, if banks are any indication.
[/quote]


I would agree if this were a few jackasses abusing the law out of ignorance, but this is standard operating procedure.

I dont think I've ever had to give my fingerprint at the bank. Im sure there are cases where its required for high dollar accounts, but Ive never had to do it. I really dont want to be doing it for a traffic stop.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='18 June 2010 - 05:24 AM' timestamp='1276863898' post='893670']
I would agree if this were a few jackasses abusing the law out of ignorance, but this is standard operating procedure.

I dont think I've ever had to give my fingerprint at the bank. Im sure there are cases where its required for high dollar accounts, but Ive never had to do it. I really dont want to be doing it for a traffic stop.
[/quote]

If you cash a check at a bank that you don't have an account at = fingerprint...

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Elflocko' date='18 June 2010 - 09:31 AM' timestamp='1276867893' post='893677']
If you cash a check at a bank that you don't have an account at = fingerprint...
[/quote]


Ah, I haven't done that, but fair enough.

[Orange 'n Black]

Fingerprinting would be a quick easy and secure way to access information at any time. I'm actually surprised it hasn't caught on more quickly for personal ID. Get pulled over, stick your thumb on the pad, cop has all your info, get it done and go.

[Jamie_B]

I'm not sure how comfortable I am with that.

But even so I would think that it might be cost prohibitive. I would think maybe it might be cheaper to do what we do with Military IDs. The government has a system called the Common Access Card (CAC) where the card itself has a chip in it that is used to identify the person, which you do have to give your fingerprints to get. I would think it would be easier to employ a system like that with a drivers license. Logistically it would be easier for the cop to take your licenses back to his car and scan it rather than bringing a electronic finger print scanner with him to your car.

Of course none of that addresses privacy advocate concerns.

[Xombie]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='18 June 2010 - 03:14 PM' timestamp='1276888443' post='893747']
I'm not sure how comfortable I am with that.

But even so I would think that it might be cost prohibitive. I would think maybe it might be cheaper to do what we do with Military IDs. The government has a system called the Common Access Card (CAC) where the card itself has a chip in it that is used to identify the person, which you do have to give your fingerprints to get. I would think it would be easier to employ a system like that with a drivers license. Logistically it would be easier for the cop to take your licenses back to his car and scan it rather than bringing a electronic finger print scanner with him to your car.

Of course none of that addresses privacy advocate concerns.
[/quote]



Hell, some places of business utilize biometric (fingerprint) readers to clock in and out.

[CincyInDC]

[quote name='Orange 'n Black' date='18 June 2010 - 08:24 PM' timestamp='1276885467' post='893740']
Fingerprinting would be a quick easy and secure way to access information at any time. I'm actually surprised it hasn't caught on more quickly for personal ID. Get pulled over, stick your thumb on the pad, cop has all your info, get it done and go.
[/quote]

make sure all fingerprint readers check for a pulse....don't want some motherfucker chopping off your index finger for identification.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Xombie' date='18 June 2010 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1276897655' post='893782']
Hell, some places of business utilize biometric (fingerprint) readers to clock in and out.
[/quote]


but we still shouldn't be making that the way of life, people get to choose or not to choose to work at those places

[Xombie]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='18 June 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1276901275' post='893789']
but we still shouldn't be making that the way of life, people get to choose or not to choose to work at those places
[/quote]


But the trend is gaining momentum, I honestly would not be surprised if airlines do not start utilizing this soon.

[Jamie_B]

and that doesnt bother you?

[Go Skins]

Prince William County in VA wants to do this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/17/AR2010061705547.html?sub=AR

The chairman of the Prince William Board of County Supervisors is calling on Virginia legislators to pass a law cracking down on illegal immigration similar to a controversial Arizona measure.

Board Chairman Corey A. Stewart (R-At Large) said he will spend the rest of the year lobbying the General Assembly to pass legislation that enhances law enforcement powers to capture, detain and deport illegal aliens; curbs illegal day laboring; and creates specific state penalties for illegal immigrants. He called the effort the "Virginia Rule of Law Campaign."

Prince William has received national attention for its own crackdown on illegal immigration. The county's law, which was enacted in 2007 and modified in 2008, requires that police officers inquire into the immigration status of all people who are arrested on suspicion of violating a state or local law.

The Arizona law, signed in April, gives police wide latitude to check the residency status of anyone who they have "reasonable suspicion" is an illegal immigrant.

"We need to bring the rule of law to all of Virginia," Stewart said. "As long as the federal government shows no interest in securing the border and no interest in internal enforcement to promote self-deportation, then states and localities will have to pick up the slack."

Nancy Lyall of the immigrant advocacy group Mexicans Without Borders called the proposal "irresponsible."

Lyall said that there is a need for immigration reform but that it should be left up to the federal government, not the state. "This type of legislation targeting people who have been a productive part of society for most of their lives is just unheard of and unjust," Lyall said.

[Xombie]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='18 June 2010 - 07:23 PM' timestamp='1276903426' post='893802']
and that doesnt bother you?
[/quote]
To be able to use another's private property and/or service when other people's lives hang in the balance of knowing, within any reasonable fashion, exactly who is using the same property and/or service? Especially when it could feasibly cut down the amount of time and money spent on airline security and some of their ridiculous protocols? No, not so much.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='14 June 2010 - 10:30 PM' timestamp='1276569007' post='893011']
[url="http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/blogs/gems/culturalagency1/SamuelHuntingtonTheHispanicC.pdf"]FWIW, depending upon one's view towards Samuel P. Huntington.[/url] [link is a pdf file.)
[/quote]

Did no one else read this link? I think everyone should.

[Orange 'n Black]

I read it and it's very much worth the time. The guy can be easily misconstrued as anti- immigrant, which will probably turn off the more liberal minded among us. Still, he makes very valid points. Certain immigrant groups have zero interest in becoming part of American culture; the implications of this are interesting.

I personally feel that if you emigrate to this country you should be prepared to be pat of this country. Illegal or legal, America is giving these people a chance they would otherwise be without.

[oldschooler]

[url="http://twitter.com/TankJohnson99"][b][font="Helvetica"][size="3"][color="#0a0501"]TankJohnson99[/color][/size][/font][/b][/url]


Out here in AZ n havnt got pulled over yet despite multiple mexican friends and family! [url="http://twitter.com/search?q=%23yalltrippin"][color="#0084b4"]#yalltrippin[/color][/url] [url="http://twitter.com/search?q=%23tintedwindows"][color="#0084b4"]#tintedwindows[/color][/url] [url="http://twitter.com/search?q=%23darkmexicans"][color="#0084b4"]#darkmexicans[/color][/url] [url="http://twitter.com/search?q=%23dahomies"][color="#0084b4"]#dahomies[/color][/url]
[url="http://twitter.com/TankJohnson99/status/16945074795"]about 3 hours ago[/url] via [url="http://ubertwitter.com/"]UberTwitter[/url]

[Jamie_B]

Tank is crazy

[|Elflocko|]

^^ Good article, but I really don't think it fits this particular thread...

[Jamie_B]

haha doh

ill move it

[CincyInDC]

http://www.rall.com/rallblog/2010/06/30/then-they-came-for-the-babies

[quote]
[img]http://www.rall.com/rallblog/comics/2010-06-30-6-30-10.jpg[/img]

[size="5"]Then They Came for the Babies[/size]

Arizona lawmakers are trying to subvert the 14th Amendment by abolishing the right of anyone born in the US to citizenship.[/quote]

[Jamie_B]

http://blog.sojo.net/2010/07/01/fixing-immigration-president-obamas-speech/

[quote]God's Politics
Fixing Immigration: President Obama’s Speech
by LaVonne Neff 07-01-2010

100524_100501-0007-immigration-rallyPresident Obama is getting no respite from contentious issues. Today, speaking at American University’s School of International Service, he tackled immigration reform, held hostage for decades, he said, by political posturing. “We will not just kick the can down the road,” he promised his audience of faculty, students, and select legislators, police chiefs, mayors, and evangelical religious leaders. Despite the fact that the topic of immigration reform arouses emotions and “lends itself to demagoguery,” he said, “I believe we can put politics aside and finally have an immigration system that’s accountable.”

I hope he is right. I have friends who are undocumented immigrants, despite more than 20 years of trying desperately to become legal residents. At last count they had spent more than $30,000 on lawyers. They have appeared before panels of judges who manifested complete ignorance of their home country and the reason they need political asylum before turning down their petitions. Their amnesty applications were improperly handled by bureaucrats, who then said the deadline had passed and nothing could be done. They have been ordered to take time off work, only to wait for hours in immigration offices while the office staff rudely ignored them.

I’m not telling you their name or their country of origin because I suspect they have simply given up and are now flying beneath the radar. There are networks of fellow refugees who will help them, but this is not the way they want to live. They are law-abiding people who work and pay taxes. They have raised their children in America (in fact, one child was born here and so, is a U.S. citizen) and now have American grandchildren. In fact, many in their extended family are Americans. And yet, due to a series of departmental SNAFUs, they continue to wait for permission to stay in their adopted country. Apparently it would take an Act of Congress to legally admit this fine family to the United States — and indeed, two Senate bills have been introduced in their favor. Both bills died in committee.

As I watched President Obama’s speech, I was thinking about my friends. They are part of the “steady stream of hard-working and talented people” that have allowed our country to thrive. If the president is right that “being American is not a matter of blood and birth, but of faith,” then my friends are more American than I am. They still hold on to the hope that someday the system will be fixed and they will be fully welcome in the land they love. I hope so too, but unless something drastically changes the political climate, my faith is weak.

As the president pointed out, people are afraid of immigrants — especially during economic downturns. This was true in 1798, just 11 years after the adoption of the U.S. Constitution, when the Alien and Sedition Acts were passed. It was true in the 19th century when waves of immigrants from Ireland, Italy, and Poland swarmed our shores. It was true at the turn of the 20th century when Jewish immigrants fled persecutors in Eastern Europe, and from 1882 to 1943 when Chinese immigrants were routinely detained and deported. It is certainly true now.

As the president also pointed out, “without bipartisan support, we cannot solve this problem. Reform cannot pass without Republican votes.”

Bipartisan action is possible. Some Republicans, “including my predecessor, President Bush,” Mr. Obama said, “have shown courageous leadership.” For example, Senators John McCain (R-AZ) and the late Ted Kennedy (D-MA) worked together on the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007, though it failed to get through Congress. Senators Charles Schumer (D-NY) and Lindsey Graham (R-SC) have collaborated on a proposal to mend our “badly broken” immigration system that sounds a great deal like President Obama’s suggestions in this morning’s speech. And yet, as the president said, “the natural impulse among those who run for office is to turn away and defer decisions for another day, another year, another administration.”

Perhaps that is why the White House invited evangelical leaders to join the audience this morning and why megachurch pastor Bill Hybels was asked to introduce the president. Evangelicals, though far from a solid bloc, tend to vote Republican. However, as Hybels pointed out, many evangelicals know that “a recurring theme in Scripture is a mandate from God to care for widows, strangers, and orphans.” Believing that religious salvation depends on faith, not on blood or birth, they may be receptive to the president’s suggestion that faith (presumably in American ideals) is also the basis of citizenship. If Hybels is correct, “today an earnest bipartisan conversation begins that those of us in the faith community have been praying about for years.”

I hope that good people of both parties will unite to fix our immigration system. I hope that we can find a just approach that is both hospitable and responsible. I hope that businesses who exploit undocumented immigrants will be forced to straighten up or shut down, and that people who wish to move here and work hard will be given the means to do so legally. I hope that my friends will someday be able to say the Pledge of Allegiance along with other new American citizens.

As the president said, “Fixing our broken immigration system is a moral imperative.”[/quote]

[Xombie]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='01 July 2010 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1278015017' post='895508']
http://blog.sojo.net/2010/07/01/fixing-immigration-president-obamas-speech/
[/quote]


Might be the best conglomeration of all the viewpoints expressed here. I don't think anyone here is against immigration as opposed to illegal immigration.

[MichaelWeston]

[quote name='Xombie' date='01 July 2010 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1278032871' post='895544']
Might be the best conglomeration of all the viewpoints expressed here. I don't think anyone here is against immigration as opposed to illegal immigration.
[/quote]

I am very pro a social safety net like welfare. I think its a necessity for a nation like ours. It allows for entrepeneurship and taking risks. The problem is that we let it run rampant and let people run wild with it endlessly. Another problem is first illegal immigration and secondly legal immigration. It does not make sense to provide for persons who could be working and let other persons come into the country and take their jobs. welfare makes sense if immigration is closed. Then we are not letting people come into the country and take jobs from people we are already subsidizing.

If I were president this would be my plan.
1. Get all the troops back from the middle east. Its a stupid war that we should not be fighting. Put them in charge of border security and homeland security. Invest the war money in non fossil fuel energy. Its helping both us and the environment.
2. Have them round up the illegal immigrants and send them back. Fine heavily anyone from construction workers to farmers to wal mart who is found to be employing illegal immigrants.
3. Put a cap on welfare for the healthy at 6 months. They will be driven to work these jobs they refuse to currently work.
4. Start legal immigration again after we have say 11-12 persons for every 10 available jobs. We need competition and imigration helps us to get bright minds from other countries and also diversifies our culture, but when you don't have enough money to feed your family do you adopt another kid? The way we are running things now doesnt make much sense.
5. After the numbers are running better then use the social safety nets as opportunities for persons to be mobile in their jobs and entrepeneurial. This is what the health care reform will do for us. Our best and brightest will be able to take risks and move from job to job instead of being stuck at positions because they have pre-existing conditions.

The people who should be most furious about illegal immigration are legal immigrants. I stood in line and did all this work and am now paying taxes to receive the same benefits as other persons. Its just foolish.