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Okay, fans. I am sick and tired of having to ALWAYS remind humanity that the football team playing in Baltimore today is the franchise owned by Art Modell, the franchise founded by Paul Brown, the franchise that dominated the AAFC, joined the NFL in 1950, and pretty much dominated the NFL for a decade and a half. The franchise that moved to Maryland in 1995, and was going to be called the Baltimore Browns before the City of Cleveland let loose their lawyers on a wimped-up Pete Rozell and the NFL pansies from 280 Park Avenue, NY NY.

The team in Baltimore today are the original Browns founded in 1946. Otto Graham was their quarterback. Paul Brown coached them.

The team in Cleveland today is an expansion franchise founded in 1999. Tim Couch was their quarterback. Chris Palmer coached them.

[img]http://www.hogsofolddc.com/assets/images/baltbrown2.jpg[/img]
Buy the t-shirt here: http://www.hogsofolddc.com/html/baltbrown.html

I'll go dig up statements I've made in assorted other threads and paste them here. Some of the arguments are weak sauce, but others are works of beauty that I'm proud to have penned. But regardless of the quality of anything posted here by me or others, there are immutable facts that no amount of legislation or legal wrangling can ever change. The team currently known as the Baltimore Ravens are the original, Mark-I, Cleveland Browns.

The league may say that they came into existence in 1996, the league may claim that the Browns' "history" remained in Cleveland when the team moved east, the league may claim that two plus two are five.... regardless of anything the league may claim, facts are facts. The Ravens were the Browns, and the Browns are a baby-fresh team with no history before 1999, one playoff appearance, and a history of sub-mediocre players delivering sub-mediocre performances.

Flame on!
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[quote name='CougarQuest' date='28 June 2010 - 09:43 PM' timestamp='1277779438' post='895041']
Are we gonna talk about the Baltimore Colts?
[/quote]

The Colts simply changed locations and took thier name and history with them. The Browns were re-invented out of thin air and got to keep the history that truthfully belongs in Baltimore with the Ravens.
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[quote name='scharm' date='29 June 2010 - 07:49 AM' timestamp='1277812141' post='895053']
Nah, it is more fun to remind those sad fucks in Cleveland about "the drive", "the fumble" etc.

Don't give them away out.
[/quote]


But now whenever you talk to Browns fans about "the drive" you have to distinguish between the one that occurred on the football field and the one that occurred from Cleveland to Baltimore.

;)

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[quote name='Cricket' date='29 June 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1277853794' post='895234']
But now whenever you talk to Browns fans about "the drive" you have to distinguish between the one that occurred on the football field and the one that occurred from Cleveland to Baltimore.

;)
[/quote]

Don't forget the drive out of Cleveland in general...

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Linky: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/sports/cleveland_2-8.html
[quote][b]Turf Wars[/b]
PBS - McNeill Lehrer Newshour
February 8, 1996

[img]http://www.pbs.org/newshour/images/sports/foot11.gif[/img]
GOV. PARRIS GLENDENING, Maryland: (Nov. 6th) Ladies and gentlemen, we have a signed contract in hand. (applause) The Browns are, indeed, coming to Baltimore. (cheers and applause) We are standing on the very spot where in less than three short years I believe 70,000 cheering fans will be cheering for Maryland's new team, the Baltimore Browns. (cheering and applause) [/quote]
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From 5/26/2006:

Just because the NFL says something is so does not make it so.

The franchise that played in Cleveland as the Browns thru 1995 is the same franchise that is currently playing as the Baltimore Ravens. The team currently in Cleveland is an expansion franchise that played their first game in 1999. No amount of legal posturing or statements from the league office will change these absolute and unchallengable facts.

They look like the Mark-I Browns because they're in the same city and have the same name, but the similarity ends there. There is no precident for a city keeping the "history" of a franchise when they move away... otherwise the 1901-1960 Washington Senators (who are now the Minnesota Twins) and the 1961-1971 Washington Senators (who are now the Texas Rangers) would be one and the same. It's obvious that there are two different franchises, different owners, different rosters... and it's the same for the 1946-1995 Cleveland Browns and the 1999-Present Cleveland Browns. Different franchises, different owners, different rosters = different teams.

I understand COMPLETELY the settlement between the NFL, the Modell family, and the city of Cleveland, but to accept that the settlement changes any of the facts requires an act of self-delusion.
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  • 3 weeks later...
All-time Cleveland Browns Records:

[u]CAREER[/u]
Passing Yards: Tim Couch, 11,131
Passing TDs: Tim Couch, 64
QB Rating (min 100 att): Kelly Holcomb, 83.3
Rushing Yards: Jamal Lewis, 2806
Rushing TDs: Jamal Lewis, 13
Recieving Yards: Kevin Johnson, 3836
Recieving TDs: Braylon Edwards, 28

[u]SINGLE SEASON[/u]
Passing Yards: Derek Anderson (2007), 3787
Passing TDs: Derek Anderson (2007), 29
QB Rating (min 50 att): Kelly Holcomb (2004) 96.8
Rushing Yards: Jamal Lewis (2007), 1304
Rushing TDs: Jamal Lewis (2007), 9
Recieving Yards: Braylon Edwards (2007), 1289
Recieving TDs: Braylon Edwards (2007), 16

All-time QB Stats:

Player Comp Att Comp % Yds Y/Att TD Int Rating
Tim Couch 1025 1714 59.8 11131 6.49 64 67 75.1
Derek Anderson 587 1109 52.9 7083 6.39 46 45 69.7
Charlie Frye 354 567 62.4 3490 6.16 14 24 70.4
Kelly Holcomb 323 507 63.7 3438 6.78 26 21 83.3
Trent Dilfer 199 333 59.8 2321 6.97 11 12 76.9
Brady Quinn 184 353 52.1 1902 5.39 10 9 66.8
Jeff Garcia 144 252 57.1 1731 6.87 10 9 76.7
Doug Pederson 117 210 55.7 1047 4.99 2 8 56.6
Luke McCown 48 98 49.0 608 6.20 4 7 52.6
Ty Detmer 47 91 51.6 548 6.02 4 2 75.7
Ken Dorsey 43 92 46.7 370 4.02 0 7 26.1
Spergon Wynn 22 54 40.7 167 3.09 0 1 41.2
Kevin Johnson 2 7 28.6 56 8.00 1 1 60.4
Bruce Gradkowski 7 21 33.3 26 1.24 0 3 2.8
Josh Cribbs 2 9 22.2 26 2.89 0 1 0.0
Phil Dawson 1 1 100.0 10 10.00 0 0 108.3
Kevin Thompson 1 1 100.0 8 8.00 0 0 100.0
Terry Kirby 1 1 100.0 2 2.00 0 0 79.2
Adimchinobe Echemandu 0 1 0.0 0 0.00 0 0 39.6
Brant Boyer 0 1 0.0 0 0.00 0 0 39.6
Dennis Northcutt 0 1 0.0 0 0.00 0 0 39.6
Frisman Jackson 0 3 0.0 0 0.00 0 0 39.6

Top 5's (Career):

Completions:
Tim Couch 1025
Derek Anderson 587
Charlie Frye 354
Kelly Holcomb 323
Trent Dilfer 199

Attempts:
Tim Couch 1714
Derek Anderson 1109
Charlie Frye 567
Kelly Holcomb 507
Brady Quinn 353

Completion % (min 50 att):
Kelly Holcomb 63.7
Charlie Frye 62.4
Tim Couch 59.8
Trent Dilfer 59.8
Jeff Garcia 57.1

Yards:
Tim Couch 11131
Derek Anderson 7083
Charlie Frye 3490
Kelly Holcomb 3438
Trent Dilfer 2321

Yards per Attempt (min 50 att):
Trent Dilfer 6.97
Jeff Garcia 6.87
Kelly Holcomb 6.78
Tim Couch 6.49
Derek Anderson 6.39

TDs:
Tim Couch 64
Derek Anderson 46
Kelly Holcomb 26
Charlie Frye 14
Trent Dilfer 11

QB Rating (min 50 att):
Kelly Holcomb 83.3
Trent Dilfer 76.9
Jeff Garcia 76.7
Ty Detmer 75.7
Tim Couch 75.1

Top 5's (Single Season)

Completions:
Derek Anderson 298 (2007)
Tim Couch 273 (2002)
Tim Couch 272 (2001)
Charlie Frye 252 (2006)
Tim Couch 223 (1999)

Attempts:
Derek Anderson 527 (2007)
Tim Couch 454 (2001)
Tim Couch 443 (2002)
Tim Couch 399 (1999)
Charlie Frye 392 (2006)

Completion % (min 50 att):
Kelly Holcomb 67.8 (2004)
Charlie Frye 64.3 (2006)
Kelly Holcomb 63.9 (2003)
Tim Couch 63.7 (2000)
Tim Couch 61.6 (2002)

Yards:
Derek Anderson 3787 (2007)
Tim Couch 3040 (2001)
Tim Couch 2842 (2002)
Charlie Frye 2454 (2006)
Tim Couch 2447 (1999)

Yards per Attempt (min 50 att):
Kelly Holcomb 8.47 (2004)
Kelly Holcomb 7.45 (2002)
Derek Anderson 7.19 (2007)
Trent Dilfer 6.97 (2005)
Tim Couch 6.90 (2000)

TDs:
Derek Anderson 29 (2007)
Tim Couch 18 (2002)
Tim Couch 17 (2001)
Tim Couch 15 (1999)
Trent Dilfer 11 (2005)

QB Rating (min 50 att):
Kelly Holcomb 96.8 (2004)
Kelly Holcomb 92.9 (2002)
Derek Anderson 82.5 (2007)
Tim Couch 77.6 (2003)
Tim Couch 77.3 (2000)
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All-time Rushing Stats:

Player Rush Yds Avg TD
Jamal Lewis 720 2806 3.9 13
William Green 568 2109 3.7 9
Reuben Droughns 529 1990 3.8 6
Jamel White 349 1324 3.8 9
Jerome Harrison 271 1310 4.8 6
James Jackson 321 1071 3.3 5
Lee Suggs 263 1048 4.0 4
Josh Cribbs 95 620 6.5 2
Jason Wright 156 578 3.7 2
Tim Couch 124 556 4.5 2
Travis Prentice 173 512 3.0 7
Terry Kirby 130 452 3.5 6
Abdul-Karim al-Jabbar 115 350 3.0 0
Dennis Northcutt 45 330 7.3 1
Charlie Frye 65 275 4.2 4
Errict Rhett 71 258 3.6 0
Chris Jennings 63 220 3.5 1
Derek Anderson 71 180 2.5 5
Benjamin Gay 51 172 3.4 1
Jeff Garcia 35 169 4.8 2
Brady Quinn 25 119 4.8 1
Lawrence Vickers 28 76 2.7 0
Doug Pederson 18 68 3.8 0
Trent Dilfer 20 46 2.3 0
Marc Edwards 8 44 5.5 0
Ty Detmer 6 38 6.3 1
Terrelle Smith 18 32 1.8 0
Andre' Davis 9 32 3.6 0
Quincy Morgan 8 30 3.8 0
Adimchinobe Echemandu 8 25 3.1 0
Luke McCown 6 25 4.2 0
Phil Dawson 2 18 9.0 1
James Davis 9 15 1.7 0
George Jones 8 15 1.9 0
Spergon Wynn 3 15 5.0 0
Kelly Holcomb 20 14 0.7 0
Braylon Edwards 3 7 2.3 0
Brant Boyer 1 7 7.0 0
Chansi Stuckey 2 6 3.0 0
Leslie Shepherd 1 5 5.0 0
Frisman Jackson 1 4 4.0 0
Antonio Bryant 1 3 3.0 0
Sedrick Shaw 3 2 0.7 0
Bruce Gradkowski 1 2 2.0 0
Rashaan Salaam 1 2 2.0 0
Derrick Frost 1 1 1.0 0
Scott Frost 1 1 1.0 0
Ken Dorsey 2 0 0.0 0
Jeff Faine 1 0 0.0 0
Kevin Thompson 1 0 0.0 0
Reggie Hodges 1 0 0.0 0
Dave Zastudil 2 -3 -1.5 0
Mohamed Massaquoi 1 -3 -3.0 0
Donte' Stallworth 1 -4 -4.0 0
Kevin Johnson 1 -6 -6.0 0
Ronnie Powell 1 -14 -14.0 0

Top 5's (Career)

Carries
Jamal Lewis 720
William Green 568
Reuben Droughns 529
Jamel White 349
James Jackson 321

Yards
Jamal Lewis 2806
William Green 2109
Reuben Droughns 1990
Jamel White 1324
Jerome Harrison 1310

Average (min 100 att)
Jerome Harrison 4.8
Tim Couch 4.5
Lee Suggs 4.0
Jamal Lewis 3.9
Jamel White 3.8

TDs
Jamal Lewis 13
Jamel White 9
William Green 9
Travis Prentice 7
Jerome Harrison 6
Reuben Droughns 6
Terry Kirby 6

Top 5's (Season)

Carries
Reuben Droughns 309 (2005)
Jamal Lewis 298 (2007)
Jamal Lewis 279 (2008)
William Green 243 (2002)
Reuben Droughns 220 (2006)

Yards
Jamal Lewis 1304 (2007)
Reuben Droughns 1232 (2005)
Jamal Lewis 1002 (2008)
William Green 887 (2002)
Jerome Harrison 862 (2009)

Average (min 100 att)
Jerome Harrison 4.44 (2009)
Jamel White 4.43 (2002)
Jamal Lewis 4.38 (2007)
Reuben Droughns 3.99 (2005)
William Green 3.94 (2003)

TDs
Jamal Lewis 9 (2007)
Travis Prentice 7 (2000)
William Green 6 (2002)
Terry Kirby 6 (1999)
Jerome Harrison 5 (2009)
Jamel White 5 (2001)
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All-time Recieving Stats:

Player Rec Yds Avg TD
Kevin Johnson 315 3836 12.2 23
Dennis Northcutt 276 3438 12.5 11
Braylon Edwards 238 3697 15.5 28
Kellen Winslow 219 2459 11.2 11
Steve Heiden 187 1602 8.6 12
Jamel White 166 1273 7.7 2
Quincy Morgan 133 2056 15.5 15
Antonio Bryant 111 1555 14.0 8
Aaron Shea 97 851 8.8 7
Andre' Davis 93 1412 15.2 13
Joe Jurevicius 90 1109 12.3 6
Reuben Droughns 66 538 8.2 0
Jamal Lewis 61 514 8.4 2
Terry Kirby 58 528 9.1 3
Jerome Harrison 57 402 7.1 3
Jason Wright 55 486 8.8 1
Darrin Chiaverini 52 555 10.7 5
Mark Campbell 46 390 8.5 4
William Green 45 277 6.2 0
Marc Edwards 43 340 7.9 4
Frisman Jackson 40 490 12.3 1
David Patten 38 546 14.4 1
Lawrence Vickers 37 256 6.9 3
Travis Prentice 37 191 5.2 1
Josh Cribbs 36 288 8.0 2
Mohamed Massaquoi 34 624 18.4 3
JaJuan Dawson 31 378 12.2 2
Andre King 30 327 10.9 0
James Jackson 30 201 6.7 0
Lee Suggs 28 204 7.3 1
Terrelle Smith 27 118 4.4 1
Irv Smith 24 222 9.3 1
Leslie Shepherd 23 274 11.9 0
Mike Furrey 23 170 7.4 0
Chansi Stuckey 19 198 10.4 1
Syndric Steptoe 19 182 9.6 0
Darnell Sanders 18 118 6.6 2
Donte' Stallworth 17 170 10.0 1
O. J. Santiago 17 153 9.0 2
Errict Rhett 14 78 5.6 0
Abdul-Karim al-Jabbar 13 59 4.5 1
Evan Moore 12 158 13.2 0
Robert Royal 11 134 12.2 1
Rickey Dudley 9 115 12.8 0
Keith Heinrich 9 65 7.2 2
Chris Jennings 9 56 6.2 0
Tim Carter 8 117 14.6 1
Darnell Dinkins 8 63 7.9 2
Brian Robiskie 7 106 15.1 0
Mike Sellers 7 73 10.4 2
Jammi German 7 65 9.3 0
Michael Gaines 5 59 11.8 1
Chad Mustard 5 38 7.6 0
Greg Estandia 4 45 11.3 0
Charles Ali 4 13 3.3 0
Benjamin Gay 4 11 2.8 0
James Davis 4 5 1.3 0
Adimchinobe Echemandu 3 25 8.3 0
Jake Moreland 3 15 5.0 0
Zola Davis 2 38 19.0 0
Travis Wilson 2 32 16.0 0
Martin Rucker 2 17 8.5 0
Paul Irons 2 16 8.0 0
Bobby Brown 2 14 7.0 0
Sedrick Shaw 2 8 4.0 0
Tim Couch 2 -13 -6.5 0
Ronnie Powell 1 45 45.0 0
Tarek Saleh 1 22 22.0 0
Brady Quinn 1 18 18.0 0
Steve Sanders 1 18 18.0 0
Damon Dunn 1 6 6.0 0
Lenzie Jackson 1 5 5.0 0
David Dunn 1 4 4.0 0
Orlando Bobo 1 3 3.0 0
R.J. Bowers 1 2 2.0 1
Shaun O'Hara 1 2 2.0 1
Jeff Faine 1 -1 -1.0 0

Top 5's (Career)

Receptions:
Kevin Johnson 315
Dennis Northcutt 276
Braylon Edwards 238
Kellen Winslow 219
Steve Heiden 187

Yards:
Kevin Johnson 3836
Braylon Edwards 3697
Dennis Northcutt 3438
Kellen Winslow 2459
Quincy Morgan 2056

Average (min 25 rec):
Mohamed Massaquoi 18.4
Braylon Edwards 15.5
Quincy Morgan 15.5
Andre' Davis 15.2
David Patten 14.4

TDs:
Braylon Edwards 28
Kevin Johnson 23
Quincy Morgan 15
Andre' Davis 13
Steve Heiden 12

Top 5's (Season)

Receptions:
Kellen Winslow 89 (2006)
Kevin Johnson 84 (2001)
Kellen Winslow 82 (2007)
Braylon Edwards 80 (2007)
Antonio Bryant 69 (2005)

Yards:
Braylon Edwards 1289 (2007)
Kellen Winslow 1106 (2007)
Kevin Johnson 1097 (2001)
Antonio Bryant 1009 (2005)
Kevin Johnson 986 (1999)

Average (min 25 rec):
Mohamed Massaquoi 18.4 (2009)
Quincy Morgan 17.2 (2002)
Braylon Edwards 16.1 (2007)
Braylon Edwards 16.0 (2005)
Braylon Edwards 15.9 (2008)

TDs:
Braylon Edwards 16 (2007)
Kevin Johnson 9 (2001)
Kevin Johnson 8 (1999)
Quincy Morgan 7 (2002)
Braylon Edwards 6 (2006)
Andre' Davis 6 (2002)
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[quote name='claptonrocks' date='16 July 2010 - 01:50 PM' timestamp='1279302617' post='897273']
If Brown fans want to incorporate that old team's record into their present one under the moniker "Browns" so be it...
Jesus H...what else to they have to cling to......
[/quote]
Okay, then since Elvis had the same # of arms and legs as I do, I'll incorporate all of his gold records into mine!
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In the entire history of the Cleveland Browns, only FIVE quarterbacks have posted a positive career TD-Int ratio, and only one of them has a ratio greater than TWO:

+5 = Kelly Holcomb (26/21) (2001-04)
+2 = Ty Detmer (4/2) (1999)
+1 = Derek Anderson (46/45) (2006-09)
+1 = Jeff Garcia (10/9) (2004)
+1 = Brady Quinn (10/9) (2008-09)

Meanwhile NINE have career negative ratios:

-1 = Trent Dilfer (11/12) (2005)
-1 = Spergon Wynn (0/1) (2000)
-1 = Josh Cribbs (0/1) (2006-09)
-3 = Tim Couch (64/67) (1999-2003)
-3 = Luke McCown (4/7) (2004)
-3 = Bruce Gradkowski (0/3) (2008)
-6 = Doug Pederson (2/6) (2000)
-7 = Ken Dorsey (0/7) (2008) <--- [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/lmao.gif[/img]
-10 = Charlie Frye (14/24) (2005-07)
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[quote name='AmishBengalFan' date='16 July 2010 - 01:53 PM' timestamp='1279302786' post='897275']
Okay, then since Elvis had the same # of arms and legs as I do, I'll incorporate all of his gold records into mine!
[/quote]

thats a pathetic analogy but whatever...

Why the fuck should you care how the Browns and their fans want to incorporate the teams past into the present..

I mean dont lose any sleep over it chief......its the fucking Browns for shits sake.
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[quote name='claptonrocks' date='16 July 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1279315719' post='897322']
thats a pathetic analogy but whatever...

Why the fuck should you care how the Browns and their fans want to incorporate the teams past into the present..

I mean dont lose any sleep over it chief......its the fucking Browns for shits sake.
[/quote]


Why do [i]you[/i] care?? He's just having fun with it.. Lighten up chief.
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[quote name='claptonrocks' date='16 July 2010 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1279315719' post='897322']
thats a pathetic analogy but whatever...

Why the fuck should you care how the Browns and their fans want to incorporate the teams past into the present..

I mean dont lose any sleep over it chief......its the fucking Browns for shits sake.
[/quote]

you're the only person here with a problem.....
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[img]http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/9585/alvspb.jpg[/img]

Remember, Al Lerner was the key player working behind the scenes on behalf of Art Modell to move the Browns to Baltimore. It was Al Lerner, not Art Modell, who orchestrated all the meetings with MD Governor Paris Glendenning during the early "feeling-out" phase. It was AL Lerner, not Art Modell, who negotiated with the Maryland Stadium Authority over the terms of the new stadium deal. And it was on Al Lerner's private jet that he and Modell met with Glendenning and the MSA representatives on the tarmac at BWI to sign the letter of intent, making the move of Art's franchise a "done deal".

If not for Al Lerner, there would be no Balimore Browns^h^h^h^h^h Ravens in the NFL today. So when the Mark-II Browns players stumble onto the field with Al Lerner's initials on their sleeves, and when uniform-wearing "Dawg Pound" puppies strut into their bleachers for another orgy of drinking, chain smoking, wife beating, and bottle hurling after yet another inevitable, predictable FauxBrowns defeat, they're all remembering fondly the man who was, more than any other person in the franchise, responsible for the move to Baltimore.

Seeing "A.L." on their sleeves only serves to cement the difference between THAT Browns franchise and THIS Browns franchise.

A.L. does not equal P.B.
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  • 3 years later...

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