|Elflocko| Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 [quote]7. [s]McVeigh[/s] The 9/11 hijackers [s]was[/s] were not [s]a christian[/s] Muslims. [s]He[/s] They may have called [s]himself[/s] themselves [s]one[/s] so but [s]his[/s] their acts say otherwise. [/quote] Bigot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 I agree, follow the politics. Because that is what this is all about--it's a fallacious issue drummed up by some fucking idiots to manipulate dumbasses. And apparently the shoe fits for some folks, but even then they put that shoe on the wrong goddamn foot. Meanwhile, in the real world, we are sandwiched in the middle of two crucial, potential history-making/turning point type events/decisions which is barely getting any media attention at all. One decision made a few days ago, another to be made over the next week or so. Either and/or both will affect your lives shit tons more than some crummy gym near a hole in the ground in a fucked up city on the east coast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalsRZ Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='John~Galt' timestamp='1282056594' post='907096'] 6. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were hit in a declared war that had nothing to do with religion. [/quote] And 9/11 was a religious attack? That too was 100% political. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1282068845' post='907173'] Yes and this isnt a Mosque either. [/quote] Oh... I didn't know that folks of all religions would be allowed to practice their religion within this facility... Well hell, Jamie why didn't you just come out and tell everyone that it was a non-denominational chapel that anybody of any religion would be able to celebrate their religion in? :tongueplantedfirmlyincheek: To Homer... I'll agree that it is political. I'll stand by what I said yesterday - why doesn't he just go the path of least resistance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBeaverHunter Posted August 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [img]http://fun256.com/photos/1167.gif[/img] [img]http://bigmentaldisease.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/mohammed-islam.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John~Galt Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1282071528' post='907201'] Bigot... [/quote] Reread the posts. I simply stated that McVeigh through his acts revealed himself to be anything but a christian. As a Catholic I feel okay making that statement. I assume most Muslims feel the same way about the 9/11 attackers but I would not be so presumptuous as to pretend to speak for them. If that makes me a bigot somehow I guess I will have to learn to live with your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John~Galt Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='BengalsRZ' timestamp='1282115078' post='907387'] And 9/11 was a religious attack? That too was 100% political. [/quote] You proceed from the assumption that the two events are somehow equal. Far from it. The bombing of Japan was an act of a declared war. No one tried to justify it by calling it God's work etc. I do happen to agree that the motives of the 9/11 attackers were in fact political. The thing that makes it so dangerous is that these are political operatives using religion to justify horrific acts. When religion and politics are mixed it never ends well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John~Galt Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1282064789' post='907141'] He is painting the whole religion based on the actions of extremists. Pretty ignorant. [/quote] +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mullichicken25 Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 it is nothing short of mind blowing to me that people can not comprehend the diference between muslims and terrorist extremists dont people realize that if they were to say "ok, you're right, we won't build here" they're effectively acknowledging that they, and all muslims, share responsibility for the attacks of 9/11? Would any catholics here be willing to raise their hand and take some responsibility for molesting boys and covering it up? its a true tesitimate to the ignorance and lunacy of the general population of this country...our kids and grandkids will one day look at back at these types of things with the same thoughts of "what the fuck? people really thought and said shit like that?" the way i did when i first learned about things like separate but equal and the intergration of public schools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='mullichicken25' timestamp='1282143950' post='907456'] it is nothing short of mind blowing to me that people can not comprehend the diference between muslims and terrorist extremists dont people realize that if they were to say "ok, you're right, we won't build here" they're effectively acknowledging that they, and all muslims, share responsibility for the attacks of 9/11? Would any catholics here be willing to raise their hand and take some responsibility for molesting boys and covering it up? its a true tesitimate to the ignorance and lunacy of the general population of this country...our kids and grandkids will one day look at back at these types of things with the same thoughts of [color="#FF0000"]"what the fuck? people really thought and said shit like that?" the way i did when i first learned about things like separate but equal and the intergration of public schools[/color] [/quote] Or when we threw Japaneese in internment camps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John~Galt Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='mullichicken25' timestamp='1282143950' post='907456'] it is nothing short of mind blowing to me that people can not comprehend the diference between muslims and terrorist extremists dont people realize that if they were to say "ok, you're right, we won't build here" they're effectively acknowledging that they, and all muslims, share responsibility for the attacks of 9/11? Would any catholics here be willing to raise their hand and take some responsibility for molesting boys and covering it up? its a true tesitimate to the ignorance and lunacy of the general population of this country...our kids and grandkids will one day look at back at these types of things with the same thoughts of "what the fuck? people really thought and said shit like that?" the way i did when i first learned about things like separate but equal and the intergration of public schools [/quote] This is a great lesson in historical context isn't it? We know the mistakes our parents and grandparents made. Do we repeat them or learn from them? Your point about the Catholic scandal is well taken. I am not sur eof your political leanings but I admire your intellectual honesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mullichicken25 Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1282144740' post='907460'] Or when we threw Japaneese in internment camps... [/quote] exactly i remember my 8th grade history teacher sort of breezing over that paragraph in the book and thinking to myself, "wait a mintue, back up the truck...we did what?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='mullichicken25' timestamp='1282143950' post='907456'] it is nothing short of mind blowing to me that people can not comprehend the diference between muslims and terrorist extremists dont people realize that if they were to say "ok, you're right, we won't build here" they're effectively acknowledging that they, and all muslims, share responsibility for the attacks of 9/11? Would any catholics here be willing to raise their hand and take some responsibility for molesting boys and covering it up? its a true tesitimate to the ignorance and lunacy of the general population of this country...our kids and grandkids will one day look at back at these types of things with the same thoughts of "what the fuck? people really thought and said shit like that?" the way i did when i first learned about things like separate but equal and the intergration of public schools [/quote] actually... to get your rationale accurate let me paint it this way... As boy, Fred was molested by a Catholic priest. Fred is now grown up and lives across town. Me, Catholic archdiocese decide that I'm going to build a Catholic church right across the street from Fred's house. Fred freaks, gets media involved, makes a firestorm of the whole thing... "I'm still scarred, every time I'll look out my window I'll see that church and be reminded...", etc. Me, as archdiocese, to reduce the media attention, etc. would look at different alternatives... or, most rational thinking people would. They're not acknowledging shit by acquiescing to the media storm. They can come out of it "the bigger people"... it is amazing the thought process that some people here it is automatically that by taking the road less burdensome, or the one easier traveled, that you're acknowledging weakness, or anything else. It is acknowledging that you are aware of public opinion and PR and choose to paint yourself in a positive light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1282144740' post='907460'] Or when we threw Japaneese in internment camps... [/quote] are you equating that to the outcry of not wanting an Islamic cultural center within a stones throw of ground zero? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John~Galt Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1282148938' post='907486'] actually... to get your rationale accurate let me paint it this way... As boy, Fred was molested by a Catholic priest. Fred is now grown up and lives across town. Me, Catholic archdiocese decide that I'm going to build a Catholic church right across the street from Fred's house. Fred freaks, gets media involved, makes a firestorm of the whole thing... "I'm still scarred, every time I'll look out my window I'll see that church and be reminded...", etc. Me, as archdiocese, to reduce the media attention, etc. would look at different alternatives... or, most rational thinking people would. They're not acknowledging shit by acquiescing to the media storm. They can come out of it "the bigger people"... it is amazing the thought process that some people here it is automatically that by taking the road less burdensome, or the one easier traveled, that you're acknowledging weakness, or anything else. It is acknowledging that you are aware of public opinion and PR and choose to paint yourself in a positive light. [/quote] There is a difference between having rights and choosing how and where to exercise those rights. Just because they can doesn't mean they should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='John~Galt' timestamp='1282149299' post='907489'] There is a difference between having rights and choosing how and where to exercise those rights. Just because they can doesn't mean they should. [/quote] Bingo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_dish Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1282080565' post='907249'] Meanwhile, in the real world, we are sandwiched in the middle of two crucial, potential history-making/turning point type events/decisions which is barely getting any media attention at all. One decision made a few days ago, another to be made over the next week or so. [/quote] I feel as if I follow the news pretty well... read BBC, FOX, CNN, MSNBC... Can you clarify what the two events/decisions are that you refer to? I am guessing one may be Irans nuke issue and what to do/if anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mullichicken25 Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1282148938' post='907486'] actually... to get your rationale accurate let me paint it this way... As boy, Fred was molested by a Catholic priest. Fred is now grown up and lives across town. Me, Catholic archdiocese decide that I'm going to build a Catholic church right across the street from Fred's house. Fred freaks, gets media involved, makes a firestorm of the whole thing... "I'm still scarred, every time I'll look out my window I'll see that church and be reminded...", etc. Me, as archdiocese, to reduce the media attention, etc. would look at different alternatives... or, most rational thinking people would. [b]They're not acknowledging shit by acquiescing to the media storm. They can come out of it "the bigger people"... it is amazing the thought process that some people here it is automatically that by taking the road less burdensome, or the one easier traveled, that you're acknowledging weakness, or anything else. It is acknowledging that you are aware of public opinion and PR and choose to paint yourself in a positive light.[/b] [/quote] my point about catholics was not meant as an exact representation of the situation at hand. I merely used it as an example of characterizing an entire group of people based on the actions a select few "bad apples" as for everything else you wrote, the bolded part specifically, theres nothing else to really say besides I completely, and whole heartedly, disagree while i can understand where you're coming from with your arguement, i can not see anyone honestly looking at them as anything less than subordinate, let alone "the bigger people", if they decided to build elsewhere. Im sure you'd hear the statements of "we're very thankful that they decided to be respectful and considerate" but i'd be willing to bet that on the inside, and on a friend to friend level of conversation, thoughts would be more along the lines of "thats right Akhmed..you back the fuck down and build your terrorist temple somewhere else!" i suppose you assume the populaiton is more mature than i do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1282149175' post='907487'] are you equating that to the outcry of not wanting an Islamic cultural center within a stones throw of ground zero? [/quote] I'm comparing not equating the larger xenophobia of people fighting them on ground zero (really not a mosque or on ground zero) with them fighting them in statin island or murphysborough ten, or in wisconson, or california with the xenophobia of putting innocent Japanese in internment camps due to that xenophobia yes. Because where does the bigotry stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='mullichicken25' timestamp='1282150762' post='907500'] as for everything else you wrote, the bolded part specifically, theres nothing else to really say besides I completely, and whole heartedly, disagree while i can understand where you're coming from with your arguement, i can not see anyone honestly looking at them as anything less than subordinate, let alone "the bigger people", if they decided to build elsewhere. Im sure you'd hear the statements of "we're very thankful that they decided to be respectful and considerate" but i'd be willing to bet that on the inside, and on a friend to friend level of conversation, thoughts would be more along the lines of "thats right Akhmed..you back the fuck down and build your terrorist temple somewhere else!" [/quote] fair enough. We disagree. Happens all the time. Not a thing wrong with that. As for the comments about the populace... you will most definitely have a large portion of people that will think that. But that would be an extreme minority. What is comical in this whole debate... honestly, I could care less if they build it or not. My only point is that I can see the argument of those that are offended. I can understand that argument. And, on the flipside, I asked several posts back for anything that was anchoring the Imam to HAVING to build on that land. I never got any reason other than that would be "giving in"... and "they shouldn't have to"... I understand that argument as well. But pride will come back and kick you in the ass pretty good. I just didn't see what the Islamic community was "giving up" by moving the location. Still don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1282148938' post='907486'] actually... to get your rationale accurate let me paint it this way... As boy, Fred was molested by a Catholic priest. Fred is now grown up and lives across town. Me, Catholic archdiocese decide that I'm going to build a Catholic church right across the street from Fred's house. Fred freaks, gets media involved, makes a firestorm of the whole thing... "I'm still scarred, every time I'll look out my window I'll see that church and be reminded...", etc. Me, as archdiocese, to reduce the media attention, etc. would look at different alternatives... or, most rational thinking people would. They're not acknowledging shit by acquiescing to the media storm. They can come out of it "the bigger people"... it is amazing the thought process that some people here it is automatically that by taking the road less burdensome, or the one easier traveled, that you're acknowledging weakness, or anything else. It is acknowledging that you are aware of public opinion and PR and choose to paint yourself in a positive light. [/quote] Muslims died in those buildings too, your anaolgy doesnt work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='mullichicken25' timestamp='1282150762' post='907500'] my point about catholics was not meant as an exact representation of the situation at hand. I merely used it as an example of characterizing an entire group of people based on the actions a select few "bad apples" as for everything else you wrote, the bolded part specifically, theres nothing else to really say besides I completely, and whole heartedly, disagree while i can understand where you're coming from with your arguement, i can not see anyone honestly looking at them as anything less than subordinate, let alone "the bigger people", if they decided to build elsewhere. Im sure you'd hear the statements of "we're very thankful that they decided to be respectful and considerate" but i'd be willing to bet that on the inside, and on a friend to friend level of conversation, thoughts would be more along the lines of [color="#FF0000"]"thats right Akhmed..you back the fuck down and build your terrorist temple somewhere else!" [/color] i suppose you assume the populaiton is more mature than i do [/quote] I'm having conversations with a few folks on another site who have directly called it a sleeper cell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1282151399' post='907504'] I'm comparing not equating the larger xenophobia of people fighting them on ground zero (really not a mosque or on ground zero) with them fighting them in statin island or murphysborough ten, or in wisconson, or california with the xenophobia of putting innocent Japanese in internment camps due to that xenophobia yes. Because where does the bigotry stop? [/quote] so you expect those that are "bigoted" to be sensitive to Islamic / Muslim requests or demands... Should they not expect any sensitivity in return? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1282151484' post='907505'] fair enough. We disagree. Happens all the time. Not a thing wrong with that. As for the comments about the populace... you will most definitely have a large portion of people that will think that. But that would be an extreme minority. What is comical in this whole debate... honestly, I could care less if they build it or not. My only point is that I can see the argument of those that are offended. I can understand that argument. And, on the flipside, I asked several posts back for anything that was anchoring the Imam to HAVING to build on that land. I never got any reason other than that would be "giving in"... and "they shouldn't have to"... I understand that argument as well. But pride will come back and kick you in the ass pretty good. I just didn't see what the Islamic community was "giving up" by moving the location. Still don't. [/quote] I dont see the offended argument at all, it isnt on ground zero at all and it used to be a burlington coat factory for gods sake. "Hallowed ground"? Hardly. Bigotry masked in patriotism, yes.[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1282151683' post='907508'] so you expect those that are "bigoted" to be sensitive to Islamic / Muslim requests or demands... Should they not expect any sensitivity in return? [/quote] No I expect that the first amendment be upheld. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1282151501' post='907506'] Muslims died in those buildings too, your anaolgy doesnt work. [/quote] Sure it works... a populace is injured in some form. populace is then intruded upon by a symbol (whether right or wrong) that offends / brings back memories / whatever of that injury. populace goes all firestorm media, etc. entity attempting to intrude with symbol has a decision to make. Either tell em to kiss off, or try to sooth the masses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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