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Mel on Carson....back then
From Mel Kiper's 2003 Draft Report
Negatives: Lacks a quick arm like Elway or Mike Vick and has some windup and three-quarters arm delivery. Forces ball, making dumb mistakes at times. Doesn't have much personality or fire and is a marginal leader, who seems to lack the persona to attract teammates as followers. Average scrambler. Has short accuracy and is inconsistent on short-to-medium and long passes. Erratic, hot-and-cold player who lacks velocity on deep out. Does not have great instincts and intelligence or IQ. Streaky and loses poise and confidence. Can improve technique and accuracy. Slow reactor. Lacks field vision. Better in rhythm system. Ran a limited offense and loses accuracy when pressured, but he will throw away and take a sack. Good but not great arm. Has questionable mental toughness and is questionable at handling pressure. Tends to bird-dog his primary receiver.
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I always find it funny that some analyst, who's probably never met the guy, feels he's qualified to say how intelligent someone is or what their IQ is.




The only significant "true" thing I see in there is this:


[quote]

Better in rhythm system. [/quote]



This offense is on another level when its in an up-tempo style of play. They've acknowledged that in the past, they need to use it more to their advantage.
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[quote name='cp2024' timestamp='1284736435' post='919542']
Is this still the same Carson we have today.
[/quote]
Yes and thank God it is!

Pro Bowl QB who has led us OUT of the morass of losing to the level of a winning team, a playoff team, and to EXPECT to win rather than to look respectable losing.

Yes... this is the "same" Carson.

Damn good thing it is.
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[quote name='cp2024' timestamp='1284736266' post='919540']
Mel on Carson....back then
From Mel Kiper's 2003 Draft Report
Negatives: Lacks a quick arm like Elway or Mike Vick and has some windup and three-quarters arm delivery. Forces ball, making dumb mistakes at times. Doesn't have much personality or fire and is a marginal leader, who seems to lack the persona to attract teammates as followers. Average scrambler. Has short accuracy and is inconsistent on short-to-medium and long passes. Erratic, hot-and-cold player who lacks velocity on deep out. Does not have great instincts and intelligence or IQ. Streaky and loses poise and confidence. Can improve technique and accuracy. Slow reactor. Lacks field vision. Better in rhythm system. Ran a limited offense and loses accuracy when pressured, but he will throw away and take a sack. [b]Good but not great arm[/b]. Has questionable mental toughness and is questionable at handling pressure. Tends to bird-dog his primary receiver.
[/quote]

:24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24:

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Carson was giving Tom and Peyton a run for their money before that knee injury. When he came back he was still pretty damn good. Then as the line deteriorated so did Carson.

The rhythm thing is 100000% correct. IF Carson gets into a ryhthm, it's going to be a long day for the defense. If he is getting pressured, flushed out of the pocket, sacked, and kicked around..that's when mistakes start to happen.

GIVE THIS MAN A LINE!
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[quote name='cp2024' timestamp='1284736266' post='919540']
Mel on Carson....back then
From Mel Kiper's 2003 Draft Report
Negatives: Lacks a quick arm like Elway or Mike Vick and has some windup and three-quarters arm delivery. Forces ball, making dumb mistakes at times. Doesn't have much personality or fire and is a marginal leader, who seems to lack the persona to attract teammates as followers. Average scrambler. Has short accuracy and is inconsistent on short-to-medium and long passes. Erratic, hot-and-cold player who lacks velocity on deep out. Does not have great instincts and intelligence or IQ. Streaky and loses poise and confidence. Can improve technique and accuracy. Slow reactor. Lacks field vision. Better in rhythm system. Ran a limited offense and loses accuracy when pressured, but he will throw away and take a sack. Good but not great arm. Has questionable mental toughness and is questionable at handling pressure. Tends to bird-dog his primary receiver.
[/quote]

A couple things stand out...

1. Forces ball, making dumb mistakes at time

2. Average scrambler - his pocket awareness is slowly getting better

3. Slow reactor. Lacks field vision - His decisions at times are questionable. When it is 3 and long and he checks down for a 2 yard gain

4. Better in rhythm system - We all have seen how he looks bad at the beginning but once he starts hitting 3 or so in a row and running that no huddle, he heats up. Brat has a good way of taking away his rhythm with his play calling.


Dead Wrong..

1. Doesn't have much personality or fire and is a marginal leader

2. Has short accuracy and is inconsistent on short-to-medium and long passes - throws one of the best deep balls in the NFL

3. Has questionable mental toughness and is questionable at handling pressure - Last season, enough said.
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[quote name='TheBeaverHunter' timestamp='1284740050' post='919580']

Dead Wrong..

[b]1. Doesn't have much personality or fire and is a marginal leader[/b]

2. Has short accuracy and is inconsistent on short-to-medium and long passes - throws one of the best deep balls in the NFL

3. Has questionable mental toughness and is questionable at handling pressure - [b]Last season, enough said.[/b]
[/quote]

I have never considered Carson the leader of the team. He certainly does not portray himself as such. I rarely see any fire from him. He quietly walks on the field and does his thing. Chad is more the leader than anyone else. When people talk about this team they ususally don't mention Carson's name until the 2nd or third sentence. The quiet leader thing is all BS. Never met a good quiet leader. Great leaders lead by example and kick ass when necessary. Gotta be a cheerleader sometimes too.

How can you say Carson handled the presure last season? We lost 4 of the last 5 games and barely beat a 4-12 KC team at home. We scored 17 points against the 28th ranked defense at home. Winning down the stretch is how great QBs separate themselves. Don't pull the last regular season game nonsense either. Carson was 1-11 in that game the first half before he sat.

Carson is 1-5 in his last 6 games. Would have thought he would have chewed some ass on the sidelines at some point. Not exactly tearing it up. No, there is no alternative.
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[quote name='cp2024' timestamp='1284736266' post='919540']

Mel on Carson....back thenFrom Mel Kiper's 2003 Draft ReportNegatives: Lacks a quick arm like Elway or Mike Vick and has some windup and three-quarters arm delivery. [b]YES.[/b]


Forces ball, making dumb mistakes at times. [b]YES, GOD YES![/b]



Doesn't have much personality or fire and is a marginal leader, who seems to lack the persona to attract teammates as followers. [b]UH TRUE. ESPECIALLY THE FIRE PART. [/b]


Average scrambler. [b]YEP[/b]


Has short accuracy and is inconsistent on short-to-medium and long passes. [b]Now? Yep.[/b]


Erratic, hot-and-cold player who lacks velocity on deep out.[b] Yep thats why you get the Pick sixes.[/b]


Does not have great instincts and intelligence or IQ. [b] No comment. They say the defensive sacks start with the quarterback. [/b]




Streaky and loses poise and confidence. [b] YEP[/b]



Can improve technique and accuracy. [b]Has[/b]


Slow reactor. [b]YES. WHY DO YOU HOLD THE BALL YOU SCREAM AT THE TV?[/b]

Lacks field vision. L[b]OL. Still. Yep. All the time he forces something here when he should have gone there...[/b]


Better in rhythm system. [b]You don't say?[/b]


Ran a limited offense and loses accuracy when pressured, but he will throw away and take a sack. :shrugs:


Good but not great arm. [b]Can't really say either way on the arm strenght but Mel is kicking ass so far. [/b]



Has questionable mental toughness and is questionable at handling pressure. [b]Absolutely 100% correct.[/b]


Tends to bird-dog his primary receiver. [b] LOL NO SHIT[/b]
[/quote]






[quote name='cp2024' timestamp='1284736435' post='919542']
Is this still the same Carson we have today.
[/quote]


Its worse. We should trade for Mike Vick.



[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1284736779' post='919546']
I always find it funny that some analyst, who's probably never met the guy, feels he's qualified to say how intelligent someone is or what their IQ is. The only significant "true" thing I see in there is this:This offense is on another level when its in an up-tempo style of play. They've acknowledged that in the past, they need to use it more to their advantage.
[/quote]

Yet they don't use it more to their advantage.


Why is that?




[quote name='fluhartz' timestamp='1284736817' post='919547']
God Damn... you read that and it sounds like some freaking undrafted free agent... not the first pick in the draft. I still have faith in Carson, although I do think he is a little gun shy... thanks to injuries and his offensive line.... WHO-DEY
[/quote]


Sounds like what we got to me.




[quote name='Jason' timestamp='1284737664' post='919561']
:24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24: :24:
[/quote]


:boese035: You pick the one potentially "questionable" observation and make fun of it to make you feel good or something?


[quote name='JC' timestamp='1284739959' post='919579']
Carson was giving Tom and Peyton a run for their money before that knee injury. When he came back he was still pretty damn good. Then as the line deteriorated so did Carson. The rhythm thing is 100000% correct. IF Carson gets into a ryhthm, it's going to be a long day for the defense. If he is getting pressured, flushed out of the pocket, sacked, and kicked around..that's when mistakes start to happen.GIVE THIS MAN A LINE!
[/quote]


It's time to move on from the Carson Palmer Experiment. He's earned far too much fat cash for being mediocre middle of the pack.

I say we draft a quarterback in round one next year.


[quote name='TheBeaverHunter' timestamp='1284740050' post='919580']
A couple things stand out...1. Forces ball, making dumb mistakes at time2. Average scrambler - his pocket awareness is slowly getting better3. Slow reactor. Lacks field vision - His decisions at times are questionable. When it is 3 and long and he checks down for a 2 yard gain4. Better in rhythm system - We all have seen how he looks bad at the beginning but once he starts hitting 3 or so in a row and running that no huddle, he heats up.


Brat has a good way of taking away his rhythm with his play calling. BRAT IS EXCELLENT AT NOT HAVING ANY ZEN. I bet its all from the brain cell pickeling alcohol he pounds away. Sure can't help none. DER.




Dead Wrong..1. Doesn't have much personality or fire and is a marginal leader. [b]MARGINAL LEADER? CORRECT. NOT MUCH FIRE AND PERSONALITY? CORRECT.[/b] 2. Has short accuracy and is inconsistent on short-to-medium and long passes - throws one of the best deep balls in the NFL3. Has questionable mental toughness and is questionable at handling pressure - Last season, enough said.
[/quote]




[quote name='SF2' timestamp='1284740874' post='919590']
I have never considered Carson the leader of the team. He certainly does not portray himself as such. I rarely see any fire from him. He quietly walks on the field and does his thing. Chad is more the leader than anyone else. When people talk about this team they ususally don't mention Carson's name until the 2nd or third sentence. How can you say Carson handled the presure last season? We lost 4 of the last 5 games and barely beat a 4-12 KC team at home. We scored 17 points against the 28th ranked defense at home. Winning down the stretch is how great QBs separate themselves. Don't pull the last regular season game nonsense either. Carson was 1-11 in that game the first half before he sat.Carson is 1-5 in his last 6 games. Not exactly tearing it up. No, there is no alternative.
[/quote]



Must Draft a new quarter back or trade for Mike Vick. You need passion, and fire back there. Not california blowing in the wind like a candle. Hula hoop. You need fire, smarts, height, at least one big throwing hand/ fingers, and a zippy arm system.


Carson California is 100% a no go template. It just doesn't work.

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Completely off base, IMO.

When you draft a QB overall No. 1 or top 5 there are basically two things you expect, IMO. First - A general level competiveness. Meaning with this Franchise piece in place your team will always be a certain level of good. It will bring you more wins, more prime time games, more recognitiion etc.

Second - Playoff success and Superbowl.


First part - IMO, Carson has absolutely given Bengal fans that. With him under center, I think you can say this team is in the mix for playoffs. I think the chances vary from year to year but he has them in the conversation (To no surprise this is also the same stuff I say about Marvin, those two are tied together).

The second part is what needs to be answered. Same with Marvin, Same with Chad.


So whether Carson improved or what he is as QB? Does not matter to me. He's proven he's a Franchise qb, IMO. The thing he has to do is get them in the playoffs and advance in those playoffs, regardless of stats. He has reached the point that winning is the only thing that matters as far as his career legacy goes.
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[quote name='SF2' timestamp='1284740874' post='919590']
I have never considered Carson the leader of the team. He certainly does not portray himself as such. I rarely see any fire from him. He quietly walks on the field and does his thing. Chad is more the leader than anyone else. When people talk about this team they ususally don't mention Carson's name until the 2nd or third sentence. The quiet leader thing is all BS. Never met a good quiet leader. Great leaders lead by example and kick ass when necessary. Gotta be a cheerleader sometimes too.

How can you say Carson handled the presure last season? We lost 4 of the last 5 games and barely beat a 4-12 KC team at home. We scored 17 points against the 28th ranked defense at home. Winning down the stretch is how great QBs separate themselves. Don't pull the last regular season game nonsense either. Carson was 1-11 in that game the first half before he sat.

Carson is 1-5 in his last 6 games. Would have thought he would have chewed some ass on the sidelines at some point. Not exactly tearing it up. No, there is no alternative.
[/quote]


I have said time and time again that I wish he had more fire...a la Boomer, but I like how he gets on Chad. We don't know what goes on in the locker room and huddle. I have seen where players have said they feed off the poise Carson has in the huddle when they are down and driving for that game tying or winning TD. I would much rather have the fire of McMahon, Marino, Elway, Manning back there, but Carson isn't some mute who gets pushed around.
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[quote name='SF2' timestamp='1284740874' post='919590']
I have never considered Carson the leader of the team. He certainly does not portray himself as such. I rarely see any fire from him. He quietly walks on the field and does his thing. Chad is more the leader than anyone else. When people talk about this team they ususally don't mention Carson's name until the 2nd or third sentence. The quiet leader thing is all BS. Never met a good quiet leader. Great leaders lead by example and kick ass when necessary. Gotta be a cheerleader sometimes too.

How can you say Carson handled the presure last season? We lost 4 of the last 5 games and barely beat a 4-12 KC team at home. We scored 17 points against the 28th ranked defense at home. Winning down the stretch is how great QBs separate themselves. Don't pull the last regular season game nonsense either. Carson was 1-11 in that game the first half before he sat.

Carson is 1-5 in his last 6 games. Would have thought he would have chewed some ass on the sidelines at some point. Not exactly tearing it up. No, there is no alternative.
[/quote]



do you honestly think you see even 5% of Carson's leadership opportunities in a given season? Are you in meetings? are you in the huddle? are you on the sidelines? Are you in the locker room?
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[quote name='fluhartz' timestamp='1284742653' post='919600']
Micheal Vick fucking sucks...... i might trade Jordan Palmer for him....

just wait until teams actually prepare for him..... it will be back to shitsville....
[/quote]

Vick has a career record of 38-28 and took his team to the NFC Championship game. 3 time pro-bowler. He does not suck but he is NOT conventional by any stretch.

EDIT: If you want SUCK look at every starting QB that ever played for the "NEW" Browns. That is SUCK.

My opinion is that on the 2005 Bengals, Carson was by far the best QB for that team. Vick would not make that team better, in fact probably much worse.

On today's team (based only on last week's and late last year's O-Line play) I have to think the team would be better with Vick as the QB. The sole reason is that our offensive line simply can't give Carson enough time to be effective and if you can pressure Carson (or any pocket QB) ON ALMOST EVERY PASSING PLAY he will be ineffective. Vick is not a great passing QB but for a team with shitty pass blocking he can probably be more effective, roll outside and find an open receiver coming back for the ball. NO Offensive Coordinator wants to run his pass offense like that BTW.

I have hope the O line and Smith will finally show up so NO I am not in favor of Mike Vick coming here even if he didn't have the baggage. Vick type QBs don't win Superbowls and can be stopped by one good free safety and good corners.
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[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1284743972' post='919608']
do you honestly think you see even 5% of Carson's leadership opportunities in a given season? Are you in meetings? are you in the huddle? are you on the sidelines? Are you in the locker room?
[/quote]

No such thing as a "stealth" leader. I actually think one of the things that has hurt Carson the most is Chad and TJ being around so long. Most QBs who are around 2 or 3 years typically assume the role based on seniority. Joe Montana, Manning, Brady, Favre and Brees have never had this situation. They got to their young teams and just assumed the leadership role quickly as they were the best players on the team. Favre did it by simple heroics (over us) and never looked back. I think that is why TO was let go in Dallas. You need ONE leader and Romo was already it.

In today's media age if Carson WERE the leader you think he is then I am guessing we would already know that. Insiders love getting this information out nowadays. I really have never heard it said that Carson was THE LEADER in the lockerroom. I hear more Dhani Jones and Chad than Carson. Willie was THE leader before I believe.

Its simple to see the Leadership qualities in Drew Brees because he wears them on his sleave as does Brett Favre. Manning and Brady are well known to be tireless workers on and off season. You just don't see it or hear about it much with Carson. Not saying he isn't the leader just think that if he is, we should know it. You would think the organization would do a better job portraying Carson as the face of the franchise.
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The whole argument is funny...QB has been the least of our problems for the past 8 years (10 if you count two decent years from Kitna before CP took over). Definitely some additional things I would like to see out of Palmer, but all in all, these are all nits...our lackluster pass rush for the past 15 years and up-and-down defense have been (and may always be) our biggest issue. Really anxious to see if Brown finally addresses this with extensions for our corners and finding a way to get (keep) stars on that side of the ball.
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[quote name='BengalsFanNY' timestamp='1284748330' post='919622']
The whole argument is funny...QB has been the least of our problems for the past 8 years (10 if you count two decent years from Kitna before CP took over). Definitely some additional things I would like to see out of Palmer, but all in all, these are all nits...our lackluster pass rush for the past 15 years and up-and-down defense have been (and may always be) our biggest issue. Really anxious to see if Brown finally addresses this with extensions for our corners and finding a way to get (keep) stars on that side of the ball.
[/quote]

Totally agree. Carson is certainly good enough to get us deep in the playoffs IF HE HAS PROTECTION. He doesn't need to be Gen. Patton to win a Superbowl. Carson can yell all he wants, if the O line is not talented enough it WONT MATTER. Fudking Smith has really screwed this team over and face it, we had more than our share of bad luck with Levi and Stacy.

Peyton Manning would not make this team better with this o line. Brady looks like a genius back there drinking his wine, eating his cheese and getting 6 to 8 seconds to pass. Could you imagine Carson with that kind of time with this group of weapons? How did Brady do last year against the Ravens in the playoffs? Shits hard when you are running for your life and you lose your blankie (Welker) aint it Tommy Boy?
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