Hey fellers

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287021705' post='930750']
LOL

Ok, sure...whatever you want. Though, that would leave open the possibility of a trade and/or quality free agent signing which would technically make me lose the bet while still proving my point.

It isnt really an agenda, it is simply pointing out the facts. I am hardly the only one who has noticed. I could post a dozen articles (actually, they have already been posted in the other forum) that same the same thing. Hell, many of the members of the forum say the same thing.
[/quote]


Fine if Palmer isnt the #1 QB on the Roster opening day next year (not due to injury), same sig bet, from opening day until the first game between our teams.

Its an agenda when you go on about Palmer's career being done when we both know the opposite.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287021891' post='930753']
Odd that he needs pro bowl caliber players across the line to perform as a 1st round pick should. Not many QB's in the league have that luxury.
[/quote]


he doesn't need pro bowl caliber, but he certainly could use better than the current oline that is starting 3 former undrafted practice squad players.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287022132' post='930757']
I am not necessarily blaming him for all of the team's ills. I am offering a counter argument to the sentiment expressed by many here that it is everyone else's fault BUT Palmer's.
[/quote]

I don't disagree. He's played poorly, but many other aspects of the team have failed or failed HIM as well. Its a combination of many factors. Read my last post and address it.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1287022343' post='930758']
Fine if Palmer isnt the #1 QB on the Roster opening day next year (not due to injury), same sig bet, from opening day until the first game between our teams.

Its an agenda when you go on about Palmer's career being done when we both know the opposite.
[/quote]

That leaves open the possibility that they draft a rookie to sit for a year before taking over, a common practice.

How about this. If they dont draft a QB in rounds 1-3 or acquire a veteran with starting experience before Week 1 (assuming it isnt due to a Palmer season ending injury in the preseason).

[oftt4]

[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1287023268' post='930764']
I don't disagree. He's played poorly, but many other aspects of the team have failed or failed HIM as well. Its a combination of many factors. Read my last post and address it.
[/quote]

Fine. I am going to reference Ben at various points because he is the QB for my team, so I know more about his career than other QB's.

[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1287013498' post='930719']
It doesn't take a statistician, no, but a little objectivity. Notice how precipitously his QB rating drops from 2006 to 2007? That's the watermark for the erosion of an offensive line that played at a very high level from 2004-2006. Sure, some QB's can play well with shit for an offensive line, but Palmer can't. Losing your starting LT, LG, C and RT over the course of a season or so and replacing them with lesser talent really had an impact on Palmer's performance. I'm not going to sit here and act like Palmer is just as good as he was in 2005-2006, because he isn't, but there are mitigating factors at work here.
[/quote]

And again. Losing talent around you shouldnt make you go to shit unless the talent around you was the sole reason you were "good" to begin with.

Ben had a stellar rookie year. His sophmore year he lost his #1 target in Burress. People said he would regress...he had an even better year statistically and won the SB (and spare me the 22 rating crap). He did this with such feared pass catchers as Randle El, Cedric Wilson, and Quincy Morgan.

In 2008 Ben lost his best offensive lineman in Faneca. People said he would regress because he lost his best protection. He had a rather pedestrian year by his standards, yet still was able to put up great numbers in the playoffs, (you guessed it) win the Superbowl, and lead one of the greatest winning drives in SB history.

In 2009 Ben put up 4300 yards, 23 TD's and a 100+ rating despite having an offensive line that consisted of two 3rd round picks, a fourth round pick, and two 6th round picks.


[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1287013498' post='930719']

And that good defense you mentioned? He only enjoyed that luxury ONCE, and that was last season. Which of course coincided with the elimination due to injury of both starting TE's in training camp, the injury and then death of Chris Henry (our last viable tall, speedy downfield threat), our switch to a run-first mentality because that's all our patchwork line was really good at, and then finally, our offense being exposed as one-dimensional due to a lack of viable passing options not numbered 85 and the erosion of the defense because of injuries to Roy Williams, Rey Maualuga, Antwan Odom, Chris Crocker and the inability down the stretch to keep the ailing defense off the field due to offensive miscues, and there you have it.
[/quote]

The Bengals have had a top half of the league defense (i.e. above average) in yards and/or points allowed for the last three years. You had a great running game last year and it led to success. Yet for some reason the Bengals decide to spend a shitload of money on more wide receivers for Palmer.

This team had success last year with a 48/52 pass-to-run ratio, 10-6 record, swept the north, made the playoffs.

Now this year, you get away from the run game and it leads to disaster. 58/42 pass-to-run and a 2-3 record.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287085266' post='930918']
That leaves open the possibility that they draft a rookie to sit for a year before taking over, a common practice.

How about this. If they dont draft a QB in rounds 1-3 or acquire a veteran with starting experience before Week 1 (assuming it isnt due to a Palmer season ending injury in the preseason).
[/quote]

That leaves it open to them getting a vet with starting experience that isnt starting opening day. Which happens [b]alot[/b] when getting a backup. (Like we did with Fitzpatrick a few years ago.)

It also allows for Palmer to be injured in week 1 and thus he isnt your opening day starter.

1. If they dont draft a QB in rounds 1-3
2. If they dont acquire a vet with starting experience that is starting opening day
3. If Palmer isnt injured opening day

[Hooky]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287021705' post='930750']
LOL

Ok, sure...whatever you want. Though, that would leave open the possibility of a trade and/or quality free agent signing which would technically make me lose the bet while still proving my point.

It isnt really an agenda, it is simply pointing out the facts. I am hardly the only one who has noticed. I could post a dozen articles (actually, they have already been posted in the other forum) that same the same thing. Hell, many of the members of the forum say the same thing.
[/quote]

That's a sucker's bet, offt. Not because he doesn't deserve to be replaced, but because you're forgetting the Mike Brown factor. He owes Palmer too much money to replace him. You are right that the few members here that make excuses for Palmer are the minority of Bengals and football fans that watch him play and realize that he's not very good. And the fact that they know that MB's not going to let Palmer go may be the reason that they're clinging to Palmer since he's our QB and we're stuck with him and might as well support him.

So I would strongly advise you not to bet. It's what should happen, but it won't. The only chance of that is if Palmer gets injured again. Even then, Mike Brown would probably stick with the back-up charity case who has no chance of even riding the bench with a team that doesn't employ his brother. Then again, most teams wouldn't waste a 2nd string QB roster spot just to make his big brother happy.

If it was up to me, I would let ML walk and replace Brat and Palmer. Palmer gets out-played by rookies and second-year QBs and Brat and ML get outcaoched by rookie and second-year coaches. Time to start over on offense. They've got a lot of talent on offense if you plug in a great OC and a smart QB.

Oh crap, I'm in agreement with a stealers fan. I need to take a shower.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1287092291' post='930946']
That leaves it open to them getting a vet with starting experience that isnt starting opening day. Which happens [b]alot[/b] when getting a backup. (Like we did with Fitzpatrick a few years ago.)

It also allows for Palmer to be injured in week 1 and thus he isnt your opening day starter.

1. If they dont draft a QB in rounds 1-3
2. If they dont acquire a vet with starting experience that is starting opening day
3. If Palmer isnt injured opening day
[/quote]

1 is settled.

For 2, many teams bring in vets to put pressure on the starter with the intention of keeping him on a short leash. How about if he isnt the starter by week 5.

So, if they draft a QB in R1-3 or if he gets pulled for a vet by week 5 (barring a NEW injury, I dont want to hear anything about his shoulder/elbow/hymen flaring up). This is certainly a long term bet, I'm not even going to remember this in a year.

Though I am told that I am being conned, in that your ownership is retarded.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287149215' post='931043']
1 is settled.

For 2, many teams bring in vets to put pressure on the starter with the intention of keeping him on a short leash. How about if he isnt the starter by week 5.

So, if they draft a QB in R1-3 or if he gets pulled for a vet by week 5 (barring a NEW injury, I dont want to hear anything about his shoulder/elbow/hymen flaring up). This is certainly a long term bet, I'm not even going to remember this in a year.

Though I am told that I am being conned, in that your ownership is retarded.
[/quote]


1. Settled
2. Fair enough said backup is starting not due to injury by week 5.
3. Not injured


No more retarted than a number of posters around here.

And if we play our first game on or before week 5 then we hold the sig from week 5 until the 2nd game

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Hooky' timestamp='1287143239' post='931019']
That's a sucker's bet, offt. Not because he doesn't deserve to be replaced, but because you're forgetting the Mike Brown factor. He owes Palmer too much money to replace him. You are right that the few members here that make excuses for Palmer are the minority of Bengals and football fans that watch him play and realize that he's not very good. And the fact that they know that MB's not going to let Palmer go may be the reason that they're clinging to Palmer since he's our QB and we're stuck with him and might as well support him.

So I would strongly advise you not to bet. It's what should happen, but it won't. The only chance of that is if Palmer gets injured again. Even then, Mike Brown would probably stick with the back-up charity case who has no chance of even riding the bench with a team that doesn't employ his brother. Then again, most teams wouldn't waste a 2nd string QB roster spot just to make his big brother happy.

If it was up to me, I would let ML walk and replace Brat and Palmer. Palmer gets out-played by rookies and second-year QBs and Brat and ML get outcaoched by rookie and second-year coaches. Time to start over on offense. They've got a lot of talent on offense if you plug in a great OC and a smart QB.

Oh crap, I'm in agreement with a stealers fan. I need to take a shower.
[/quote]



After this year the Bengals don't owe Carson a dime of guaranteed money. They could cut him easily. That said, they won't, nor should they.

[Hooky]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1287176454' post='931156']
After this year the Bengals don't owe Carson a dime of guaranteed money. They could cut him easily. That said, they won't, nor should they.
[/quote]

I stand corrected. That's encouraging. Why shouldn't they? Put your personal feelings aside and tell me why they should keep him if he continues to play this way. This is business and you're taking it very personal. But that's a problem too that the Redeemer might be too worried about hurting people's feeling and keep him on regardless of how he's playing. Everybody deserves a second, third , fourth, etc... chance. The Bengals are just a consistently good QB from going back and even advancing in the play-offs. I want what's best for the team. I'm not a fan of Palmer's or any other Bengal, I'm a Bengals fan and I don't care who plays on the team or individual stats if they're winning. Palmer plays like a rookie and it's embarrassing as a Bengals fan.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Hooky' timestamp='1287233555' post='931241']
I stand corrected. That's encouraging. Why shouldn't they? Put your personal feelings aside and tell me why they should keep him if he continues to play this way. This is business and you're taking it very personal. But that's a problem too that the Redeemer might be too worried about hurting people's feeling and keep him on regardless of how he's playing. Everybody deserves a second, third , fourth, etc... chance. The Bengals are just a consistently good QB from going back and even advancing in the play-offs. I want what's best for the team. I'm not a fan of Palmer's or any other Bengal, I'm a Bengals fan and I don't care who plays on the team or individual stats if they're winning. Palmer plays like a rookie and it's embarrassing as a Bengals fan.
[/quote]


Because there are other bigger needs.

Joseph and Cedric are in their contract years.

Oline is playing much worst than Carson (which is saying something)

Chad and TO are up there in age.

We cant rush the passer worth a damn.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1287236496' post='931251']
1. Because there are other bigger needs.

2. Joseph and Cedric are in their contract years.

3. Oline is playing much worst than Carson (which is saying something)

4. Chad and TO are up there in age.

5. We cant rush the passer worth a damn.
[/quote]

1. QB is arguable the most important position in professional sports. Solid, consitent play from a QB can cover up a lot of other team flaws.

2. Maybe so, but opening up space by not paying Palmer a kings ransom in salary would actually help wouldnt it?

3. Not sure how you can say that. Your OL has been called average by many. There is an article in the other forum that ranks them as 25th in the league. Palmer is the 22nd ranked QB in the league (soon to be 23rd) in terms of passer rating. That is not much worse, that is if anything equally bad. (FO ranks your OL 5th in run blocking, and 8th in pass protection. Not saying FO is the end-all of stats, but at least they have a statistical method.)

4. You also have two young receivers and a young TE that you all seem to be happy with. TO and Chad have enough years left to let those younger guys develop.

5. True

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287245280' post='931270']
Palmer is the 22nd ranked QB in the league ([b]soon to be 23rd[/b]) in terms of passer rating.
[/quote]

So Ben is going to occupy the 22nd spot?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287245280' post='931270']
1. QB is arguable the most important position in professional sports. Solid, consitent play from a QB can cover up a lot of other team flaws.

2. Maybe so, but opening up space by not paying Palmer a kings ransom in salary would actually help wouldnt it?

3. Not sure how you can say that. Your OL has been called average by many. There is an article in the other forum that ranks them as 25th in the league. Palmer is the 22nd ranked QB in the league (soon to be 23rd) in terms of passer rating. That is not much worse, that is if anything equally bad. (FO ranks your OL 5th in run blocking, and 8th in pass protection. Not saying FO is the end-all of stats, but at least they have a statistical method.)

4. You also have two young receivers and a young TE that you all seem to be happy with. TO and Chad have enough years left to let those younger guys develop.

5. True
[/quote]


1. And as such it might be a good idea to give him better protection than 25th in the league

2. He isnt making a kings ransom in comparison around the league

3. And the oline blocking goes hand in hand with how Palmer is playing. This isnt rocket science.

4. We have a good young TE and a #3 WR who may be good, but I also dont know how he is going to hold up as he is a small guy who has already taken a concussion. He may pan out he may do nothing. We dont have a #1 type waiting in the wings for when Chad retires, and I have no idea who you think our second young good WR is, because Caldwell has already been beaten out by a rookie.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1287246103' post='931273']
So Ben is going to occupy the 22nd spot?


[/quote]

Do you honestly think Ben will post a QB rating below 80 against the Browns?

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1287246248' post='931275']
1. And as such it might be a good idea to give him better protection than 25th in the league

2. He isnt making a kings ransom in comparison around the league

3. And the oline blocking goes hand in hand with how Palmer is playing. This isnt rocket science.

4. We have a good young TE and a #3 WR who may be good, but I also dont know how he is going to hold up as he is a small guy who has already taken a concussion. He may pan out he may do nothing. We dont have a #1 type waiting in the wings for when Chad retires, and I have no idea who you think our second young good WR is, because Caldwell has already been beaten out by a rookie.
[/quote]

1. 25th according to Prisco, who has never been confused with a football expert. Football Outsiders says your line is plenty good enough. And as I said, good QB's can overcome team flaws.

2. His contract isnt exactly cheap: 12/29/2005: Signed a six-year, $118.75 million contract extension through 2014. The deal included a $15 million signing bonus and a third-year option bonus of $9 million. 2010: $10.5 million, [b]2011-2012: $11.5 million[/b], 2013: $13 million, 2014: $14 million, 2015: Free Agent

3. See #1. Your line may not be great, but it is as good or better than plenty of OL's in the league.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Hooky' timestamp='1287233555' post='931241']
I stand corrected. That's encouraging. Why shouldn't they? Put your personal feelings aside and tell me why they should keep him if he continues to play this way. This is business and you're taking it very personal. But that's a problem too that the Redeemer might be too worried about hurting people's feeling and keep him on regardless of how he's playing. Everybody deserves a second, third , fourth, etc... chance. The Bengals are just a consistently good QB from going back and even advancing in the play-offs. I want what's best for the team. I'm not a fan of Palmer's or any other Bengal, I'm a Bengals fan and I don't care who plays on the team or individual stats if they're winning. Palmer plays like a rookie and it's embarrassing as a Bengals fan.
[/quote]


lol I'm the one taking it personally? The "Carson haters" here can't even control themselves with some of the stupid crap they say.


Why don't I think they should? Carson's not nearly as bad as some want to think he is, replacing him won't fix the real issues on the team, and bringing in a young replacement is merely setting the team back 2-3 years at minimum. This team can win, and win quite a bit with Carson under center. A lot of people need to play up to their level though.


[quote]The Bengals are just a consistently good QB from going back and even advancing in the play-offs. [/quote]


The Bengals are currently the 18th ranked rushing attack, 28th in sacks, 21st in stopping the run, 31st in kick returns, 25th in punt returns, and 27th in kick coverage.

And Carson's the only thing holding this team back?


Child Please.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1287282412' post='931338']

And Carson's the only thing holding this team back?


Child Please.
[/quote]

Not the only thing, but it is foolish to claim that his play isnt a large part of their current record. He pretty much single handidly lost the Tampa game.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287360180' post='931523']
Not the only thing, but it is foolish to claim that his play isnt a large part of their current record. He pretty much single handidly lost the Tampa game.
[/quote]



not really.

[JC]

Watching the game today..I learned the Steelers are really, really, good. Rashard is coming into his own. A faster mini-version of the Bus. Ben is still very aware in the pocket. Throws a good ball when he steps into it. Hard as hell to take down. Doesn't need a good O-line to make things happen. Have the deep threat in Mike Wallace, who is going to be a load whenever he plays with Ben giving him time to get open, Hines the possession reciever who is probably the most reliable guy in the NFL, Heath Miller a great two way Tight End, and a cast of recievers that given time can get open and make plays. The mastermind of Defense on their side in LeBeau and Troy P, the best safety in the game. Harrison and Woodley coming off the edge. The team is loaded.

Barring injuries..the Steelers are probably unfortunately going to be playing in January. I hate them..but they have such a solid core of players. I wish they would just suck for 20 years..

On another division note..it looks like the Browns may finally have a QB. The AFC north is going to be a competitive division for the next five years for sure. Hopefully we can keep pace..but with the offensive line we have..it's going to be a hard task.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1287360977' post='931528']
not really.
[/quote]

How do you argue with someone who refuses to accept reality?

Your Running game averaged 5.3 yards per touch. Your defense got 3 sacks, an interception, and 2 fumbles. Your offensive line didnt allow a sack. Your kicker was 2 for 2 on field goals. Your punter averaged 51 yards per kick with a long of 72 yards.

Palmer threw a pick six in the first half. That is a direct responsibility for roughly 30% of Tampa's points, 7 points in a game TB won by 3. In the last 4 minutes of the game, with a 7 point lead, Palmer threw TWO picks.

Palmer lost that game all by himself. But hey, you enjoy whatever fantasy world you are living in.

[oftt4]

[quote name='JC' timestamp='1287362014' post='931531']
Watching the game today..I learned the Steelers are really, really, good. Rashard is coming into his own. A faster mini-version of the Bus. Ben is still very aware in the pocket. Throws a good ball when he steps into it. Hard as hell to take down. Doesn't need a good O-line to make things happen. Have the deep threat in Mike Wallace, who is going to be a load whenever he plays with Ben giving him time to get open, Hines the possession reciever who is probably the most reliable guy in the NFL, Heath Miller a great two way Tight End, and a cast of recievers that given time can get open and make plays. The mastermind of Defense on their side in LeBeau and Troy P, the best safety in the game. Harrison and Woodley coming off the edge. The team is loaded.

Barring injuries..the Steelers are probably unfortunately going to be playing in January. I hate them..but they have such a solid core of players. I wish they would just suck for 20 years..

On another division note..it looks like the Browns may finally have a QB. The AFC north is going to be a competitive division for the next five years for sure. Hopefully we can keep pace..but with the offensive line we have..it's going to be a hard task.


[/quote]


Ben looked pretty good, barring a couple of poor throws (the interception and missing a wide open receiver for a first down). The think I was most encouraged about was that he didnt get sacked once. Ben threw a few balls away rather than trying to make something out of nothing. It was only Cleveland, so I will temper my enthusiasm, but it definately was an encouraging start.

The defense is the defense. They are good.

McCoy looked OK, though most of his success came in garbage time when the game was out of reach. I have never understood why LeBeau gets so conservative at the end of games. If you ignore the last 5 minutes (10/13, 140 yards, TD) of the game McCoy's numbers werent very impressive at all.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287410205' post='931626']
How do you argue with someone who refuses to accept reality?

Your Running game averaged 5.3 yards per touch. Your defense got 3 sacks, an interception, and 2 fumbles. Your offensive line didnt allow a sack. Your kicker was 2 for 2 on field goals. Your punter averaged 51 yards per kick with a long of 72 yards.

Palmer threw a pick six in the first half. That is a direct responsibility for roughly 30% of Tampa's points, 7 points in a game TB won by 3. In the last 4 minutes of the game, with a 7 point lead, Palmer threw TWO picks.

Palmer lost that game all by himself. But hey, you enjoy whatever fantasy world you are living in.
[/quote]


yes Palmer threw a pick six in the first half, and DESPITE it, the team was still up 21-14 late. So no, it didn't directly lose them the game.


In the last 3 minutes, Carson did throw 2 picks. But neither were his fault. One bounced off Chad's hands, and the other the coaches have called out TO for not running his route right and not fighting for the ball. Not to mention the coaches made a bonehead playcall to begin with.


Meanwhile, the defense gave up over 391yds to an average Tampa offense, gave up 5.7ypc to tampa RB's, the team had 9 costly penalties, WR's dropped about 5 passes including two key ones on 3rd down, the coaches abandoned a running game that was working, and the defense got a gift unforced fumble on the 2 yd line or we're not even talking about this being only a 3pt loss.



Carson did not directly cost them that game. Did he play a part? Sure, but stupidity to put it all on his shoulders.


The stupidest thing you can do, which you did, is to merely look at the stat column and think you know shit about what happened in the game.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1287411261' post='931639']
yes Palmer threw a pick six in the first half, and DESPITE it, the team was still up 21-14 late. So no, it didn't directly lose them the game.


In the last 3 minutes, Carson did throw 2 picks. But neither were his fault. One bounced off Chad's hands, and the other the coaches have called out TO for not running his route right and not fighting for the ball. Not to mention the coaches made a bonehead playcall to begin with.


Meanwhile, the defense gave up over 391yds to an average Tampa offense, gave up 5.7ypc to tampa RB's, the team had 9 costly penalties, WR's dropped about 5 passes including two key ones on 3rd down, and the defense got a gift unforced fumble on the 2 yd line or we're not even talking about this being only a 3pt loss.



Carson did not directly cost them that game. Did he play a part? Sure, but stupidity to put it all on his shoulders.


[color="#FF0000"]The stupidest thing you can do, which you did, is to merely look at the stat column and think you know shit about what happened in the game.[/color]
[/quote]


Which he has done since his existence here. He watches 2 bengals games a year and then argues the rest from stats which tells only so much about the games. You're wasting your breath, he's here with an agenda and that agenda isnt to be intellectuality honest.

[bammorrisgotmehigh]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1287411390' post='931640']
Which he has done since his existence here. He watches 2 bengals games a year and then argues the rest from stats which tells only so much about the games. You're wasting your breath, he's here with an agenda and that agenda isnt to be intellectuality honest.
[/quote]



I don't mean to get in this argument but when Ben was "managing" his way through his first couple of years and not putting up any gaudy stats but Palmer was putting up crazy numbers the Palmer vs Roethlisberger debate on this board was all about stats. Now it's not about stats?