|kennethmw| Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 I don't know if you guys saw this, but I would be interested in knowing what you think. Is this where we are going, or is it what we're trying to end? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/04/firefighters-watch-as-hom_n_750272.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 It's where some want us to head with all this privatization talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 If you pay your taxes in this country, you should be afforded protection by the police and the fire department, end of story. There should be no added on fees just because someone lives outside a metropolitan area and has to rely on their fire department because its the closest one available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote][size="5"][b]Libertarian Reluctantly Calls Fire Department[/b][/size] APRIL 21, 2004 | ISSUE 40•16 CHEYENNE, WY—After attempting to contain a living-room blaze started by a cigarette, card-carrying Libertarian Trent Jacobs reluctantly called the Cheyenne Fire Department Monday. "Although the community would do better to rely on an efficient, free-market fire-fighting service, the fact is that expensive, unnecessary public fire departments do exist," Jacobs said. "Also, my house was burning down." Jacobs did not offer to pay firefighters for their service.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 ^ I knew that had to come from where I thought it was coming from when I googled it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatorclaws Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1286297629' post='927012'] If you pay your taxes in this country, you should be afforded protection by the police and the fire department, end of story. There should be no added on fees just because someone lives outside a metropolitan area and has to rely on their fire department because its the closest one available. [/quote] the issue is this person didn't pay any taxes that go towards a fire department. It's like insurance, you can't go without insurance then try to buy it after a loss and expect them to cover you. I would hope that if any human lives were in danger, they would have put out the fire. They should have a policy that if you didn't pay for the service and need help, they'll do it but you have to cover all expenses. You can either let fire protection be optional and let things like this happen, or force everyone to pay for it through taxes so everyone's covered. Either way, people will complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote name='gatorclaws' timestamp='1286300682' post='927029'] You can either let fire protection be optional and let things like this happen, or force everyone to pay for it through taxes so everyone's covered. [/quote] Pretty much this. People are too stupid to have this choice, see first post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1286297629' post='927012'] If you pay your taxes in this country, you should be afforded protection by the police and the fire department, end of story. There should be no added on fees just because someone lives outside a metropolitan area and has to rely on their fire department because its the closest one available. [/quote] You are dead wrong...... Just because this guy pays his taxes does not mean his taxes go to that Fire Dept......Fire Dept's are paid for locally with grants from FEMA few and far between.... His community has an agreement with a local fire dept to pay a meager $75 a year for fire service. Most communities have an income tax or property tax that pays for their fire service. He lives outside of that community so he does not pay the property tax or income tax that pays for those services. He was told the risk of not paying the $75 and at the time he obviously thought not paying was worth the risk. As his house burned down I assume he did not think it was worth the risk not to pay. Think of the fire dept as a life insurance policy. You as a person have a policy for as much as you can afford or are willing to pay. The area that pays the taxes for that particular fire dept pays either a property tax or income tax to pay for that service. Crasnick lives outside that area so he does not pay that. He refused to pay the $75 to have fire coverage and he paid the price for it. If the fire dept responds to his house anyway then less and less people that live outside the area covered will pay for that service because they know the fire dept will come anyways. The trucks and people risking their lives cost money.... they don't just appear out of thin air because you happen to have an emergency that day. What would have happened if the fire dept responded to his fire and then a second fire came in for someone who does pay and there was no one left to respond? Being a firefighter myself, I can tell you it had to kill the guys working that day to not respond.....I can also tell you that if there had been an endangered life they would have responded... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote]He was told the risk of not paying the $75 and at the time he obviously thought not paying was worth the risk.[/quote] I'm guessing you don't take him at his word when he said he forgot to pay. You've never forgotten to pay a bill? Ever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1286303516' post='927042'] I'm guessing you don't take him at his word when he said he forgot to pay. You've never forgotten to pay a bill? Ever? [/quote] Um..... Not one that was that important...but I am sure I would say anything I had to to get the firefighters to work as my house was burning down. Do you ever let your home owners insurance lapse? or does the bank not let it(through your mortgage payment) because they know how important it is? Car insurance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1286303516' post='927042'] I'm guessing you don't take him at his word when he said he forgot to pay. You've never forgotten to pay a bill? Ever? [/quote] The video from the actual news station doesn't say anything about him "forgetting" to pay. The guy says he didn't pay, not he forgot to pay. Man, now I am understanding why people don't like this Fox News channel. http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local/Firefighters-watch-as-home-burns-to-the-ground-104052668.html On the local news version the guy says "I thought the fire department would come out even if you didn't pay your $75. I was wrong." Stupid Fox News. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1286304016' post='927046'] Um..... Not one that was that important...but I am sure I would say anything I had to to get the firefighters to work as my house was burning down. Do you ever let your home owners insurance lapse? or does the bank not let it(through your mortgage payment) because they know how important it is? Car insurance? [/quote] Truth? Yes I have forgotten to pay my car insurance and let it lapse once, because they had me set up as online pay and I never got a paper bill so I forgot about it when I was doing bills. I was lucky I didnt have a accident. Its why I dont participate in online pay anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted October 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1286304016' post='927046'] Um..... Not one that was that important...but I am sure I would say anything I had to to get the firefighters to work as my house was burning down. Do you ever let your home owners insurance lapse? or does the bank not let it(through your mortgage payment) because they know how important it is? Car insurance? [/quote] Tigers, you say you're a firefighter. Would you have gone out to the property next to the house because the field was burning, and then stood there and watched a member of your communities house burn down because he hadn't paid 75 dollars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1286304958' post='927052'] Tigers, you say you're a firefighter. Would you have gone out to the property next to the house because the field was burning, and then stood there and watched a member of your communities house burn down because he hadn't paid 75 dollars? [/quote] It is really hard to say because none of the communities around me are set up like that. The only thing close to it is one of the townships contracts with another township for coverage.... but everyone is covered by the contract. I would have wanted to help him, but if I was ordered by an officer not to I would have stayed on my truck. It would have killed me not to though.... If I was the officer.... I would have had a really....really...really(can I stress really anymore) hard time standing there and doing nothing, but if I knew I would be fired or disciplined if I did fight the fire I probably would have done nothing. This decision I am sure had to come from higher up than the fire dept.... If it was a life saving issue, I have no doubt in my mind that I would have taken action whether my officer told me to or not..... Needless to say, it is a very poor system in the first place. The fee should be taken directly out of their property taxes without them having the choice.....at the very least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1286305866' post='927060'] Needless to say, it is a very poor system in the first place. The fee should be taken directly out of their property taxes without them having the choice.....at the very least. [/quote] Well this was essentially what I was getting at in my previous post. Not being a firefighter I didn't know that taxpayer money wasn't used to pay for firefighting services, I just assumed it. And it absolutely should be paid for by state/local taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted October 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1286305866' post='927060'] It is really hard to say because none of the communities around me are set up like that. The only thing close to it is one of the townships contracts with another township for coverage.... but everyone is covered by the contract. I would have wanted to help him, but if I was ordered by an officer not to I would have stayed on my truck. It would have killed me not to though.... If I was the officer.... I would have had a really....really...really(can I stress really anymore) hard time standing there and doing nothing, but if I knew I would be fired or disciplined if I did fight the fire I probably would have done nothing. This decision I am sure had to come from higher up than the fire dept.... If it was a life saving issue, I have no doubt in my mind that I would have taken action whether my officer told me to or not..... Needless to say, it is a very poor system in the first place. The fee should be taken directly out of their property taxes without them having the choice.....at the very least. [/quote] I appreciate your frankness. I guess I always remember a situation like this, that my father was in, although it wasn't identical. We grew up on a farm, and our FD was 90% volunteers, with my father being one of them. A guy that had stiffed my dad on something, I forget if it was grain or feed, had his barn catch on fire, and the radio call went out. My dad went out and helped put out the fire, and helped save the majority of the barn. The next day, I asked him why he helped this guy out, after having just argued with him a couple of weeks before. He said something to me that day that I'll always remember. He told me that just because someone has treated you wrong, doesn't mean that you stop treating him right. I've always tried to live by this. For some reason, it seems that we have forgotten this in the way we treat each other today. It's all about the holy dollar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 If I was the "victim" I would bring a lawsuit against whomever was telling to order them not to do it, even if thrown out it would cost the state/defendant more than 75 bucks to defend, if only to prove a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1286308822' post='927079'] I appreciate your frankness. I guess I always remember a situation like this, that my father was in, although it wasn't identical. We grew up on a farm, and our FD was 90% volunteers, with my father being one of them. A guy that had stiffed my dad on something, I forget if it was grain or feed, had his barn catch on fire, and the radio call went out. My dad went out and helped put out the fire, and helped save the majority of the barn. The next day, I asked him why he helped this guy out, after having just argued with him a couple of weeks before. He said something to me that day that I'll always remember. He told me that just because someone has treated you wrong, doesn't mean that you stop treating him right. I've always tried to live by this. [color="#FF0000"]For some reason, it seems that we have forgotten this in the way we treat each other today. It's all about the holy dollar.[/color] [/quote] Sadly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBallerson Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1286303516' post='927042'] I'm guessing you don't take him at his word when he said he forgot to pay. You've never forgotten to pay a bill? Ever? [/quote] Eh, same results when you "forget" you insurance lapses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote name='McBallerson' timestamp='1286311450' post='927086'] Eh, same results when you "forget" you insurance lapses. [/quote] yes and had i gotten in an accident i would have been responsible (and im lucky my state didnt catch me as owning insurance or paying an opt out is required) but were talking about fire protection which [i]should[/i] be payed for by taxes which is what i was getting at about privatization in my original post Actually I covered privatization and fire departments over a year ago here - http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=50209&st=0&p=803176&hl=franklin&fromsearch=1&#entry803176 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1286311967' post='927088'] yes and had i gotten in an accident i would have been responsible (and im lucky my state didnt catch me as owning insurance or paying an opt out is required) but were talking about fire protection which [i]should[/i] be payed for by taxes which is what i was getting at about privatization in my original post Actually I covered privatization and fire departments over a year ago here - http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=50209&st=0&p=803176&hl=franklin&fromsearch=1&#entry803176 [/quote] This is not a privatization issue..... The fire dept that would have responded to Cranick was for another municipal area. For some strange reason, the people living outside this area have decided to pay this fire dept what is essentially a $75/year tax to cover them instead of paying a property tax or income tax for their "own" municipality and organizing their "own" fire dept. Technically, the fire dept that did not put out the fire could just say "fuck it" and say they are only covering "their" tax base and leave these people out in the cold..... I don't think people realize how poorly some municipalities/townships are covered for fire protection. When times are bad fire dept's are usually one of the first things cut....because technically it is an insurance policy and nobody really cares about the fire dept until "they" have an emergency or the feel like they need to hold up a "hero".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1286316865' post='927104'] This is not a privatization issue..... The fire dept that would have responded to Cranick was for another municipal area. [color="#FF0000"]For some strange reason, the people living outside this area have decided to pay this fire dept what is essentially a $75/year tax to cover them instead of paying a property tax or income tax for their "own" municipality and organizing their "own" fire dept.[/color] Technically, the fire dept that did not put out the fire could just say "fuck it" and say they are only covering "their" tax base and leave these people out in the cold..... I don't think people realize how poorly some municipalities/townships are covered for fire protection. When times are bad fire dept's are usually one of the first things cut....because technically it is an insurance policy and nobody really cares about the fire dept until "they" have an emergency or the feel like they need to hold up a "hero".... [/quote] which begs the question why Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatorclaws Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1286311100' post='927084'] If I was the "victim" I would bring a lawsuit against whomever was telling to order them not to do it, even if thrown out it would cost the state/defendant more than 75 bucks to defend, if only to prove a point. [/quote] yay... bankrupt the fire department so nobody has good fire protection. where do you draw the line of saying others have to pay for the service, but this guy doesn't? Everyone else would stop paying also. Be mad at the system and fight to change it, but don't punish the municipality/fire department cause you didn't want to pay your share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='gatorclaws' timestamp='1286328914' post='927150'] yay... bankrupt the fire department so nobody has good fire protection. where do you draw the line of saying others have to pay for the service, but this guy doesn't? Everyone else would stop paying also. Be mad at the system and fight to change it, but don't punish the municipality/fire department cause you didn't want to pay your share. [/quote] so your in the he didnt want to pay vs he forgot to pay camp too huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted October 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='gatorclaws' timestamp='1286328914' post='927150'] yay... bankrupt the fire department so nobody has good fire protection. where do you draw the line of saying others have to pay for the service, but this guy doesn't? Everyone else would stop paying also. Be mad at the system and fight to change it, but don't punish the municipality/fire department cause you didn't want to pay your share. [/quote] This "GUY" said he forgot, and offered to pay the entire cost for the FD to put out the fire at his house. That cost would have been less than trying to replace the house along with all the memories. They said NO. That is the part I do not understand. Hell, they could have charged him the cost, and if he didn't pay, attach a Lien to his property that would have ensured that they would get paid. I'm sorry, guys, but it's not letting the house burn down that pisses me off, It's consciously allowing someone's ENTIRE FAMILY to lose their HOME, you know, the place where all their life has been spent. Every Easter, Every Christmas, all the Thanksgivings, the marriages, the births, the DEATHS. I know it happens every day to someone, but I can't think of a single time that it has been by CHOICE. Until now. This is indefensible!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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