Jamie_B Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1286333796' post='927188'] This "GUY" said he forgot, and offered to pay the entire cost for the FD to put out the fire at his house. That cost would have been less than trying to replace the house along with all the memories. They said NO. That is the part I do not understand. Hell, they could have charged him the cost, and if he didn't pay, attach a Lien to his property that would have ensured that they would get paid. I'm sorry, guys, but it's not letting the house burn down that pisses me off, It's consciously allowing someone's ENTIRE FAMILY to lose their HOME, you know, the place where all their life has been spent. Every Easter, Every Christmas, all the Thanksgivings, the marriages, the births, the DEATHS. I know it happens every day to someone, but I can't think of a single time that it has been by CHOICE. Until now. This is indefensible!! [/quote] +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_dish Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1286333796' post='927188'] This "GUY" said he forgot, and offered to pay the entire cost for the FD to put out the fire at his house. That cost would have been less than trying to replace the house along with all the memories. They said NO. That is the part I do not understand. Hell, they could have charged him the cost, and if he didn't pay, attach a Lien to his property that would have ensured that they would get paid. [/quote] I agree with this... take a quick cell phone video of him agreeing to pay, either the $75 or the entire cost, as a contract basically, then put the fire out and deal with the invoicing later. I do understand the other point, where others have paid and he didnt, so why should he get the service... but with a fire right in front of you, a mans dogs trapped inside, I'd put the fire out. Hell, if I was the guy I'd start screaming bloody murder that a family member was still inside (and pay the piper about lying about that later). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1286334428' post='927190'] I agree with this... take a quick cell phone video of him agreeing to pay, either the $75 or the entire cost, as a contract basically, then put the fire out and deal with the invoicing later. I do understand the other point, where others have paid and he didnt, so why should he get the service... but with a fire right in front of you, a mans dogs trapped inside, I'd put the fire out. Hell, if I was the guy I'd start screaming bloody murder that a family member was still inside ([color="#FF0000"]and pay the piper about lying about that later[/color]). [/quote] easier to ask for forgiveness than permission as they say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1286333796' post='927188'] This "GUY" said he forgot, and offered to pay the entire cost for the FD to put out the fire at his house. That cost would have been less than trying to replace the house along with all the memories. They said NO. That is the part I do not understand. Hell, they could have charged him the cost, and if he didn't pay, attach a Lien to his property that would have ensured that they would get paid. I'm sorry, guys, but it's not letting the house burn down that pisses me off, It's consciously allowing someone's ENTIRE FAMILY to lose their HOME, you know, the place where all their life has been spent. Every Easter, Every Christmas, all the Thanksgivings, the marriages, the births, the DEATHS. I know it happens every day to someone, but I can't think of a single time that it has been by CHOICE. Until now. This is indefensible!! [/quote] Ok.... Simple fact: A fire doubles in size every minute. Firefighters can not freeze time...I am not being a smart ass... they can't. It is not plausible to expect the Chief to pull up to a house on fire and start negotiating a contract while the house continues to deteriorate. So lets start over..... The fire starts in the first room... The owner calls in the fire... we are at close to 2 mins... Dispatch tones out the fire dept.... all the guys run down to the trucks and get on and go...probably close to another 2 mins 4 mins: Our fire dept says...and it is about right... that we can get to anywhere in the city within 3 minutes....but remember this fire dept was traveling outside of it's municipality...so we will be generous and say it only took 4 mins to get there. That puts us at 7 mins. Ok... so the fire is already 7 times bigger than when it was first called in...... Now the Chief has to get out of the command vehicle, find the owner and negotiate a contract with this guy while everyone stands around and the house becomes more dangerous to enter by the second.(I am pretty sure no one here has studied Brannigans "Building Construction for the Fire Service"). So lets say the Chief just happens to be the best Lawyer in the world and negotiates a contract in 3 mins.....something that is [b]COMPLETELY[/b] out of his scope of practice and would probably not stand up in court anyways. Now we are at 10 mins and that is being [b]EXTREMELY[/b] generous with time. This whole scenario is ludicrous....... To even think this is plausible tells me that no one here has every been in an emergency situation much less on a house fire...When adrenaline is running high and you do more work in 15 mins then a lot people do all day. I am here to tell you... No. The thought of the Chief getting out and negotiating with the resident is 100% not plausible. If I was an officer I would never....ever hold my crews back....let a house deteriorate...and then send my crews in. The fire dept/municipality would be sued in a heartbeat if anyone got hurt. Bottom Line: The system that let this scenario happen is stupid. The township/area that Cranick lives in should either pay to have their own fire dept through a levy or income tax or the area that the municipality is going to cover should enter into a contract with the municipality paid for by [b]ALL[/b] the residents through property taxes for fire coverage. Edit: Not to mention most fire depts are woefully understaffed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1286334428' post='927190'] I agree with this... take a quick cell phone video of him agreeing to pay, either the $75 or the entire cost, as a contract basically, then put the fire out and deal with the invoicing later. I do understand the other point, where others have paid and he didnt, so why should he get the service... but with a fire right in front of you, a mans dogs trapped inside, I'd put the fire out. Hell, if I was the guy I'd start screaming bloody murder that a family member was still inside (and pay the piper about lying about that later). [/quote] Unless we are going to pay a lawyer to ride along with the chief(as if any dept needs an added expense) or require that all Fire Chiefs be lawyers this is not plausible.... I will tell you this... had there been a life safety issue I have to believe that the fire dept responding would have done something... if not they are pieces of shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhYFUFcVnSw[/media] Here is a simple video that is 3 mins long. What starts out as a garage fire in three mins has moved into the house(it looks like through the attic from the smoke that is coming out the eves at the other side of the house) and you are starting to see structure failure of the roof and wall over the gargage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 Lesson learned. When dealing with pay-for-protection situations like this one should run around screaming, "I can't find my 4-year-old son." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='CincyInDC' timestamp='1286367005' post='927224'] Lesson learned. When dealing with pay-for-protection situations like this one should run around screaming, "I can't find my 4-year-old son." [/quote] You are right.... That probably would have gotten the firefighters inside.... But imagine a firefighter was hurt trying to find a phantom child... Then who would all the disdain be projected at.... That is not 100% certain the firefighters would have fought the fire... you usually do not actually fight the fire until live saving operations are completed... you would push smoke, fire, heat and steam on the victims. Most victims in a fire succumb to smoke inhalation way before anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 ^^^that was meant to be a snarky comment. Hopefully we can all agree that it's a ridiculous, untenable, no-win situation that should have never been allowed to happen. Sure, he should have paid his bill, but the law needs to be changed to prevent this situation again in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='CincyInDC' timestamp='1286367956' post='927229'] ^^^that was meant to be a snarky comment. Hopefully we can all agree that it's a ridiculous, untenable, no-win situation that should have never been allowed to happen. Sure, he should have paid his bill, but the law needs to be changed to prevent this situation again in the future. [/quote] I know....but you would really be amazed at how little the general public knows about firefighting...or maybe not.... Like I said no one really cares until "they" have an emergency and their world is falling apart around them.... Agreed....that is a very piss poor system and it needs to be changed. Emergency operations need to be automatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted October 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1286335601' post='927195'] Ok.... Simple fact: A fire doubles in size every minute. Firefighters can not freeze time...I am not being a smart ass... they can't. It is not plausible to expect the Chief to pull up to a house on fire and start negotiating a contract while the house continues to deteriorate. So lets start over..... The fire starts in the first room... The owner calls in the fire... we are at close to 2 mins... Dispatch tones out the fire dept.... all the guys run down to the trucks and get on and go...probably close to another 2 mins 4 mins: Our fire dept says...and it is about right... that we can get to anywhere in the city within 3 minutes....but remember this fire dept was traveling outside of it's municipality...so we will be generous and say it only took 4 mins to get there. That puts us at 7 mins. Ok... so the fire is already 7 times bigger than when it was first called in...... Now the Chief has to get out of the command vehicle, find the owner and negotiate a contract with this guy while everyone stands around and the house becomes more dangerous to enter by the second.(I am pretty sure no one here has studied Brannigans "Building Construction for the Fire Service"). So lets say the Chief just happens to be the best Lawyer in the world and negotiates a contract in 3 mins.....something that is [b]COMPLETELY[/b] out of his scope of practice and would probably not stand up in court anyways. Now we are at 10 mins and that is being [b]EXTREMELY[/b] generous with time. This whole scenario is ludicrous....... To even think this is plausible tells me that no one here has every been in an emergency situation much less on a house fire...When adrenaline is running high and you do more work in 15 mins then a lot people do all day. I am here to tell you... No. The thought of the Chief getting out and negotiating with the resident is 100% not plausible. If I was an officer I would never....ever hold my crews back....let a house deteriorate...and then send my crews in. The fire dept/municipality would be sued in a heartbeat if anyone got hurt. Bottom Line: The system that let this scenario happen is stupid. The township/area that Cranick lives in should either pay to have their own fire dept through a levy or income tax or the area that the municipality is going to cover should enter into a contract with the municipality paid for by [b]ALL[/b] the residents through property taxes for fire coverage. Edit: Not to mention most fire depts are woefully understaffed. [/quote] Obviously, you didn't read the post or listen to the newscast. The fire started in barrels outside the house, caught a shed on fire, and then moved to the house. It took 2 hours to go from the barrels to the house, and the family called 911 numerous times over that two hour period, offering every time to pay the entire cost of FD response in order to save their home. These people said NO. Once they did come to the area, to put out the fire in the neighbor's field that was a result of the original fire, THE NEIGHBOR also offered to write a Check to the FD if they would take the water they were going to use on his fence line over to his neighbor's home. And again, they said NO. This is probably the most callous disregard for your fellow man that I have seen in my lifetime. There was time, plenty of time to save this man's house, and to not do it is utterly reprehensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1286370901' post='927243'] Obviously, you didn't read the post or listen to the newscast. The fire started in barrels outside the house, caught a shed on fire, and then moved to the house. It took 2 hours to go from the barrels to the house, and the family called 911 numerous times over that two hour period, offering every time to pay the entire cost of FD response in order to save their home. These people said NO. Once they did come to the area, to put out the fire in the neighbor's field that was a result of the original fire, THE NEIGHBOR also offered to write a Check to the FD if they would take the water they were going to use on his fence line over to his neighbor's home. And again, they said NO. This is probably the most callous disregard for your fellow man that I have seen in my lifetime. There was time, plenty of time to save this man's house, and to not do it is utterly reprehensible. [/quote] All of your posts in this thread have been dead on. Unfortunately there will be people to defend these sorts of actions and it seems that number of people is increasing......which is very scary. IMO, it's inhumane to allow that family's house to be destroyed. I don't give a shit if Im a firefighter and faced being fired, I would have saved the house. I dont give a shit if they've not paid their "fees" for 10 yrs....I save the house. Letting a FAMILY'S house burn down over a member of that family not paying a $75 fee.........ridiculous. We're losing our humanity. At an ever increasing rate now a days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1286376908' post='927271'] All of your posts in this thread have been dead on. Unfortunately there will be people to defend these sorts of actions and it seems that number of people is increasing......which is very scary. IMO, it's inhumane to allow that family's house to be destroyed. I don't give a shit if Im a firefighter and faced being fired, I would have saved the house. I dont give a shit if they've not paid their "fees" for 10 yrs....I save the house. Letting a FAMILY'S house burn down over a member of that family not paying a $75 fee.........ridiculous. We're losing our humanity. At an ever increasing rate now a days. [/quote] When I skip my auto insurance premium this month and get into a wreck, I will remember your name. Let's see if you come to my side and help me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1286379655' post='927275'] When I skip my auto insurance premium this month and get into a wreck, I will remember your name. Let's see if you come to my side and help me out. [/quote] Its not the same thing. Fire protection is [i]supposed[/i] to be a common good payed for by taxes. TJ is right, the current system is screwed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1286380101' post='927277'] Its not the same thing. Fire protection is [i]supposed[/i] to be a common good payed for by taxes. TJ is right, the current system is screwed up. [/quote] Yeah but in this case it wasn't and the guy was explicitly told that it was a separate fee. Yeah the policy is dumb. I'm all for protecting the stupid from themselves cause more often than not, it affects me. This is what happens when you give idiots choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1286379655' post='927275'] When I skip my auto insurance premium this month and get into a wreck, I will remember your name. Let's see if you come to my side and help me out. [/quote] That's not an apples to apples comparison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1286376908' post='927271'] All of your posts in this thread have been dead on. Unfortunately there will be people to defend these sorts of actions and it seems that number of people is increasing......which is very scary. IMO, it's inhumane to allow that family's house to be destroyed. I don't give a shit if Im a firefighter and faced being fired, I would have saved the house. I dont give a shit if they've not paid their "fees" for 10 yrs....I save the house. Letting a FAMILY'S house burn down over a member of that family not paying a $75 fee.........ridiculous. We're losing our humanity. At an ever increasing rate now a days. [/quote] Are you kidding me? In this economy you would risk losing your job and the means to feed your family by disobeying a direct order? Then if you get hurt going in to the fire and workers comp refuses to pay because you disobeyed a direct order? You would obviously be in violation of the two in two out rule as well.... I am telling you right now the guys from the fire dept that showed up have no fault in this situation... It is the system as a whole that is screwed up... not the individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1286380406' post='927278'] Yeah but in this case it wasn't and the guy was explicitly told that it was a separate fee. Yeah the policy is dumb. I'm all for protecting the stupid from themselves cause more often than not, it affects me. This is what happens when you give idiots choices. [/quote] Ok but were talking about 75 dollars. Now this guy is out of a home and if he doesnt have family or friends to take him in its going to cost the tax payer a hell of alot more than 75 dollars to shelter him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1286370901' post='927243'] Obviously, you didn't read the post or listen to the newscast. The fire started in barrels outside the house, caught a shed on fire, and then moved to the house. It took 2 hours to go from the barrels to the house, and the family called 911 numerous times over that two hour period, offering every time to pay the entire cost of FD response in order to save their home. These people said NO. Once they did come to the area, to put out the fire in the neighbor's field that was a result of the original fire, THE NEIGHBOR also offered to write a Check to the FD if they would take the water they were going to use on his fence line over to his neighbor's home. And again, they said NO. This is probably the most callous disregard for your fellow man that I have seen in my lifetime. There was time, plenty of time to save this man's house, and to not do it is utterly reprehensible. [/quote] [quote]The fire reportedly started in some barrels outside. As the flames crept closer to the home, Cranick says he offered to pay whatever it would take. The plea fell on deaf ears. [b]Hours later, the home was gone.[/b][/quote] Where does it say that it took two hours to get to the house? What was burning in the barrels? Why did this dumbass have barrels with flammables so close to his house? If the fire is contained in the barrels and has not touched the house why not find a way to move them away from the house or at least kick them over away from the house.... I am telling you right now those barrels had to have something HIGHLY flammable in them to get that out of control that quick....and if they did not get out of control that quick he should have been able to put the fire out with a regular garden hose just by sticking the hose in and turning it on and flooding the barrel.... I am telling you there is WAY more than meets the eye here and Olberman/Huffington are spinning it into an election year battle to try and hurt the Tea Party.... Disclaimer: The Tea Party scares me too...but this was turning a screwed up system for fire coverage into a way to bash the Tea Party for something they do not even have a hand in.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1286381773' post='927282'] Ok but were talking about 75 dollars. Now this guy is out of a home and if he doesnt have family or friends to take him in its going to cost the tax payer a hell of alot more than 75 dollars to shelter him. [/quote] Yeah we're talking about $75. The guy shouldn't have tried to stick it to the man. He should have just paid it. If they put out his fire, how many others would think that the fee was now optional? What would happen to the fire department? They don't work for free. If people just stop paying their fees because there is no consequence, then what? No fire protection for anyone. The rule is stupid but the man knew the rule. He made his choice. He seemed to accept responsibility and admit he was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1286380830' post='927280'] That's not an apples to apples comparison [/quote] How about this then: I will go rent a cool sports car and not pick up the insurance offered by the rental company. My current auto insurance does not cover rentals. I decline the extra fee and wreck the car. You gonna step up and pay for the damages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted October 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1286382198' post='927286'] How about this then: I will go rent a cool sports car and not pick up the insurance offered by the rental company. My current auto insurance does not cover rentals. I decline the extra fee and wreck the car. You gonna step up and pay for the damages? [/quote] What part of the guy saying that he would pay whatever it cost for the firefighters to put out the fire BEFORE it got to his house did you miss? He wasn't asking someone else to pay for the service, and he wasn't asking for them to only charge him $75 dollars. He, AS WELL AS HIS NEIGHBOR, were willing to pay what it cost to get the fire doused, so he wasn't asking for a handout, he was asking for technical support that HE WAS WILLING TO PAY FOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted October 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1286381911' post='927283'] Where does it say that it took two hours to get to the house? What was burning in the barrels? Why did this dumbass have barrels with flammables so close to his house? If the fire is contained in the barrels and has not touched the house why not find a way to move them away from the house or at least kick them over away from the house.... I am telling you right now those barrels had to have something HIGHLY flammable in them to get that out of control that quick....and if they did not get out of control that quick he should have been able to put the fire out with a regular garden hose just by sticking the hose in and turning it on and flooding the barrel.... I am telling you there is WAY more than meets the eye here and Olberman/Huffington are spinning it into an election year battle to try and hurt the Tea Party.... Disclaimer: The Tea Party scares me too...but this was turning a screwed up system for fire coverage into a way to bash the Tea Party for something they do not even have a hand in.... [/quote] Well, I did see it on Olberman, but I also made sure that the article I posted had the local News Report in it as well. That was the one where the LOCAL NEWS REPORTER said that it took approx 2 hrs to go from the barrels to the house. And did you ever hear the part where they stated that they tried to put it out with the garden hose, but were unable to? Tigers, I know your a Conservative, and you know I'm a liberal, but the problem is not the fee, it's that the people in control were willing to let a guy's HOME burn to the ground to prove a point. That's BULLSHIT, AND YOU KNOW IT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1286385134' post='927306'] Well, I did see it on Olberman, but I also made sure that the article I posted had the local News Report in it as well. That was the one where the LOCAL NEWS REPORTER said that it took approx 2 hrs to go from the barrels to the house. And did you ever hear the part where they stated that they tried to put it out with the garden hose, but were unable to? Tigers, I know your a Conservative, and you know I'm a liberal, but the problem is not the fee, it's that the people in control were willing to let a guy's HOME burn to the ground to prove a point. That's BULLSHIT, AND YOU KNOW IT! [/quote] I know fire science... The laws of physics are on my side... If it took 2 hours to spread from the barrels to the house this was not a volatile fire... it was more of a camp fire.... Someone... somewhere is not being completely honest. It is also obvious to me that you have never been at a real house fire..... they are violent situations that are not at all like lazy burning camp fires that take 2 hours to spread.... We put out dumpster fires all the time...if this really started in a barrel and took 2 hours to spread then there is not reason sticking a garden hose in the barrel and flooding the barrel would not have worked. When have you ever heard a Tea Partier...or whatever the fuck they are called say "We should disorganize all firefighting and police protection because it is a sign of BIG GOVERNMENT"...that is bullshit and Olberman is trying to discredit the Tea Party because he sees them as a real threat in this years elections. To me this is a sign of panic mode from extreme liberals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted October 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1286385380' post='927307'] I know fire science... The laws of physics are on my side... If it took 2 hours to spread from the barrels to the house this was not a volatile fire... it was more of a camp fire.... Someone... somewhere is not being completely honest. It is also obvious to me that you have never been at a real house fire..... they are violent situations that are not at all like lazy burning fires that take 2 hours to spread.... [/quote] Really? It actually sounds to me that someone is trying to justify why it's OK to let someone's HOME burn down. Guess who that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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