Khatmandude Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1286381503' post='927281'] Are you kidding me? In this economy you would risk losing your job and the means to feed your family by disobeying a direct order? Then if you get hurt going in to the fire and workers comp refuses to pay because you disobeyed a direct order? You would obviously be in violation of the two in two out rule as well.... I am telling you right now the guys from the fire dept that showed up have no fault in this situation... It is the system as a whole that is screwed up... not the individuals. [/quote] Yes, in this economy I would still save the guy's house. That's the decent thing to do. There were no people inside so the firefighter wouldnt have had to go in, therefore drastically reducing the risk of injury and eliminating the need to go into the fire....correct? And I don't disagree that the system is screwed up...I think that's unanimous. I think it's also accepted that the firefighters have no fault in this ..... legally. But as human beings they are very much at fault IMO.....you may feel differently and that's up to you but this is how I feel personally. [quote name='sois' timestamp='1286382198' post='927286'] How about this then: I will go rent a cool sports car and not pick up the insurance offered by the rental company. My current auto insurance does not cover rentals. I decline the extra fee and wreck the car. You gonna step up and pay for the damages? [/quote] How about this then: You come up with an example that actually fits and I'll try to answer to the best of my ability. Deal? [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1286391741' post='927380'] Is there any legislation to allow a fire dept to put a lean on someone's house? Serious question. Jamie, if you owe me money for work I did on your house can I put a lean on your house? [/quote] Don't know about legislation where the FD can put a lien on a home but your second question's answer is yes. If I did basement work on your home and you didn't pay me...I could legally put a lien on your home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatorclaws Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='RayDoggBengal' timestamp='1286391533' post='927375'] Saw a couple interviews with the guy. First the system is crap, it shouldn't be set up that way. That being said, the owner said a couple times that there was a fire at his sons house who handn't paid and it was put out and he went the next day and paid the $75. This makes me think he was counting on doing this if his house ever caught on fire. I think the system there should be changed but based on his words alone I can't take his side on this one. Also, if I lived next door and had paid the $75 and got any damage while they were trying to put his out I would be major pissed. [/quote] It's hard to have symapthy for the guy if he was trying to cheat the system. [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1286391864' post='927381'] ... the ludicrous part is asking a fire chief to negotiate that at a fire scene..... Just like Raydogg said... The entire system in that area is crap and needs to be re-done. This is the first I have ever heard of a single homeowner being allowed to pay in for a fire dept to cover them so I have no idea how widespread the problem is.... [/quote] I do agree, it's crazy that this situation is even possible and the fire department may not have any authority to go after costs after the fact which makes it even more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1286395016' post='927405'] Dont disagree with any of this but even if he couldnt pay it and ended up homeless eventually at least the state has a property which they can profit from. [/quote] Yeah, I guess that would have been something. IKOTA, come up with an example for me. I am running our of was to illustrate "If you don't buy insurance on X, you are at risk of losing it in a catastrophe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1286395167' post='927407'] Yes, in this economy I would still save the guy's house. That's the decent thing to do. There were no people inside so the firefighter wouldnt have had to go in, therefore drastically reducing the risk of injury and eliminating the need to go into the fire....correct? And I don't disagree that the system is screwed up...I think that's unanimous. I think it's also accepted that the firefighters have no fault in this ..... legally. But as human beings they are very much at fault IMO.....you may feel differently and that's up to you but this is how I feel personally. How about this then: You come up with an example that actually fits and I'll try to answer to the best of my ability. Deal? Don't know about legislation where the FD can put a lien on a home but your second question's answer is yes. If I did basement work on your home and you didn't pay me...I could legally put a lien on your home. [/quote] If you throw water at a house from the outside the house will most likely be a total loss... you will water damage the entire house and cause structural damage to the house.... even if some of the house is left standing it will still have to be torn down. You are talking about master streams that throw up to 1000 gallons a minute of water... you can not float the fire out of the house. Let me ask you this, would you disobey a direct order from a supervisor at your work to save someone else's ass if it was going to cost you your job and ability to take care of your family? I don't know if this particular dept was all volunteer or not... if there are full time professional firefighters on this dept then they depend on that income to feed there families. On top of all that, if they disobey a direct order not to go in and then go in and get hurt workers compensation will not cover any injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1286396513' post='927417'] Yeah, I guess that would have been something. IKOTA, come up with an example for me. I am running our of was to illustrate "If you don't buy insurance on X, you are at risk of losing it in a catastrophe." [/quote] Which is why in the case of emergency services nobody should have a choice to opt out. (blah blah blah to the personal freedom crowds) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1286396973' post='927419'] Which is why in the case of emergency services nobody should have a choice to opt out. (blah blah blah to the personal freedom crowds) [/quote] Yes. 100% Agree. Personal freedoms are gay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1286396973' post='927419'] Which is why in the case of emergency services nobody should have a choice to opt out. (blah blah blah to the personal freedom crowds) [/quote] You are 100% correct. Anyone responding to the emergency should have one thing on their mind..mitigating that emergency with as little loss to life and property as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1286397250' post='927421'] You are 100% correct. Anyone responding to the emergency should have one thing on their mind..mitigating that emergency with as little loss to life and property as possible. [/quote] Wait were in agreement? **rethinks position** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1286397327' post='927423'] Wait were in agreement? **rethinks position** [/quote] Isn't that a relief.....sheesh! The system failed is the simplest way to put it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1286398046' post='927427'] Isn't that a relief.....sheesh! The system failed is the simplest way to put it. [/quote] Sadly it fails alot of people in a lot of various ways every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted October 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1286398503' post='927429'] Sadly it fails alot of people in a lot of various ways every day. [/quote] It does, but most of the time it's an unconscious decision. This one was done consciously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1286398695' post='927432'] It does, but most of the time it's an unconscious decision. This one was done consciously. [/quote] I'd argue a good amount of the failure is conscious, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enon Bengal Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 Fire fighters, (and public servants in general), put their butts on the line everyday and this guy chooses not to pay $75 for fire service? Who's the irresponsible party? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 [quote name='Enon Bengal' timestamp='1286417680' post='927620'] Fire fighters, (and public servants in general), put their butts on the line everyday and this guy chooses not to pay $75 for fire service? Who's the irresponsible party? [/quote] Personal responsibility doesnt exist. Dont make me pay higher taxes because of the mistakes of idiots, make them pay to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bengal Migration| Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1286381503' post='927281'] Are you kidding me? In this economy you would risk losing your job and the means to feed your family by disobeying a direct order? [b]Then if you get hurt going in to the fire and workers comp refuses to pay because you disobeyed a direct order? [/b] You would obviously be in violation of the two in two out rule as well.... I am telling you right now the guys from the fire dept that showed up have no fault in this situation... It is the system as a whole that is screwed up... not the individuals. [/quote] How exactly is someone on an all-volunteer FD going to get fired? [quote]Reavis said he operates his all-volunteer, unpaid fire department on $8,000 a year. [/quote] http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39535911/ns/us_news-life/ That change your thinking any? If the guys on the FD are only supposed to be working out of kindness and the goodness of their own hearts to begin with, and have no job to lose as a result, how then can you possibly justify standing around and watching a guy's home burn down? IMO, IKOTA's got it right. It feels like we're losing our humanity to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 So maybe not at the time the house burned, but now the Chief is using this to prove a point to make something change. I hope he's successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 [quote name='Bengal Migration' timestamp='1286428170' post='927665'] How exactly is someone on an all-volunteer FD going to get fired? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39535911/ns/us_news-life/ That change your thinking any? If the guys on the FD are only supposed to be working out of kindness and the goodness of their own hearts to begin with, and have no job to lose as a result, how then can you possibly justify standing around and watching a guy's home burn down? IMO, IKOTA's got it right. It feels like we're losing our humanity to me. [/quote] Okay... What happens if said volunteer firefighters disobey a direct order from an officer,(Fire Dept's are paramilitary organizations)go into this house and one or more of them get hurt? Workers compensation is not going to cover the injuries or disability for the firefighter because they were told not to go in by a superior. He/She will not be able to work his regular job to pay his bills and feed his family. Are you going to pay his bills and feed his family outside of workers comp? Lets go to the flip side of the coin. What happens Mr. Jones down the street is talking to Mr. Smith? Mr. Jones: Hey man you hear old Cranick's house burned to the ground? Mr. Smith: Yeah, I heard. I also heard Cranick did not pay his fire fee and they put the house out anyway.... Mr. Jones: Looks like that fee is optional then....(laughs) Mr. Smith: I know it will be optional for me next year! People will stop paying and the fire dept will stop responding outside of its municipality. This area will now be uncovered by a fire dept. Fire Dept's are struggling financially everywhere. Like I said earlier, these emergency workers and equipment do not just appear out of thin air because YOU have an emergency. They have to be maintained. The firefighters have to go through constant training. The trucks are extremely expensive on upkeep.... This is not on the firefighters on scene.... This is on a piss poor system. Mr. Cranick's township/municipality either needs to: A. pass a property tax levy and start their own fire dept. B. contract as a whole with the neighboring municipality and have it assessed to their property taxes. C. Annex into the neighboring municipality and start paying the property tax/income tax that helps maintain the fire dept. My cities residents pay a 1.4% income tax that is specifically for fire service. The surrounding townships pass and re-pass levies all the time for fire service. If those levies do not pass then those areas see a reduction or elimination of fire service. People should start to realize how uncovered a lot of rural areas are..... We have a rather large Ford engine plant in Bath Township right outside of Lima. The fire dept that covers this complex along with many other plants(Dana, Nickles Bakery just to name a few) has 2.....count em 2 full time employees on duty and various volunteers. Lima is right next to Bath though and if there was a fire there they would call us and we will help. Our area is lucky because most of the surrounding areas fire dept's have good working relationships. It did not used to be that way. Back in the 80's one area was woefully undermanned and they were leaning on Lima too much for service and the Mayor of Lima told them they were going to start charging this fire dept per call for service(after so many calls in a year). What happened? That township got their shit together...passed a levy and upgraded their fire dept. The problem with having an all volunteer fire dept is.. these guys also have to have regular jobs. So... say you get the call for a fire and you are an all volunteer fire dept. The volunteers have to leave their homes and/or work then go get the trucks then respond to the scene. They are not just sitting in the station waiting for calls. There response time is greatly increased meaning most fires are a lot more out of control(considering a fire doubles in size every minute). A lot of volunteer fire dept's have trouble getting anyone to show up a lot of the times anyways. Volunteers are a dying breed. People are working 2 and 3 jobs to make it and do not have the time it takes to commit to going on calls and training. It takes a special breed to be a volunteer. The next time you see one... thank him. He is taking a TON of his free time to make sure you are safe. The legalities of firefighting have changed. Ohio revised code now tells me.... and this has changed in the last 8 years or so. That if I disobey the two in/two out rule(You have to have two fully equipped firefighters masked up outside if you have two firefighters inside) and go in by myself to save a life or save property and I get hurt it will not be covered by workers compensation. This presents a REAL problem because of the way my fire dept is run. We have 1 Central station with 7 guys including the Chief. We have 4 outstations with two guys(one pump operator and one officer). This is a first responder system that is set up for medical calls as well to get ACLS to outer lying areas as fast as possible. So we get a house fire and it is in my territory. I am operating the pump that day...so on the way my officer is getting ready...bunker gear...mask..SCBA. 8 years ago that officer would get on scene and start fighting the fire by himself and if someone was trapped inside...you bet your ass he would have been inside. In fact, we had one get trapped several years ago in a structure by himself....we found him lost, laying on a floor trying to get away from the thermal layering(in a fire standing up and laying down can be the difference of 500 to 800 degrees)in a bedroom by himself(it's not like the movies in a fire you can not see your hand in front of your face). When we brought him out the metal clips on his jacket were too hot to touch without gloves. Now if said officer gets hurt....workers comp will not pay his claims or disability. He went in to this house because he saw kids toys and cars in the driveway and assumed people were trapped inside. Disclaimer: Our fire dept is undergoing reorganization so no one is put in this position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_dish Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1286418295' post='927625'] Personal responsibility doesnt exist. Dont make me pay higher taxes because of the mistakes of idiots, make them pay to begin with. [/quote] You forgot this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 [quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1286460769' post='927718'] You forgot this... [/quote] No I didnt. You miss the point, people complaining about dont tax me so high, well guess where taxes should be going? To stuff like this. And guess where they end up going when you dont take care of things on the front end of it. Its the same with the bailouts/stimulus. Had people not been complaining about paying taxes on the front end, regulators would have more budgets to deal with watching industry. If we would pay a little more tax for federally funded elections we could the fight lobbyists that cost us for convincing the politicians to deregulate to begin with wouldnt have the power they do and we would likely see alot more things going on for the people as opposed to for the corporation. Its as simple as an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. But people cant see the forest for the trees anymore, they simple care only about themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 [quote]People will stop paying and the fire dept will stop responding outside of its municipality. This area will now be uncovered by a fire dept. [/quote] I don't agree with this. It's not like the cost of putting out that fire was exactly $75. If they don't pay the fee, charge them the full cost of putting out the fire. Especially where I live (Texas), I find it to be stomach-churning that we can basically kill someone legally to protect property (even your car!), but in this case, a house was allowed to burn down and people lost their animals over a $75 fee. Agree with you guys, humanity is being pissed away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 [quote name='Cat' timestamp='1286464095' post='927730'] I don't agree with this. It's not like the cost of putting out that fire was exactly $75. If they don't pay the fee, charge them the full cost of putting out the fire. Especially where I live (Texas), I find it to be stomach-churning that we can basically kill someone legally to protect property (even your car!), but in this case, a house was allowed to burn down and people lost their animals over a $75 fee. Agree with you guys, humanity is being pissed away. [/quote] ok... then I suppose you can answer the question I had... Can a fire dept legally put a lien on someones house to make them pay for the full cost of a fire? If not, do they have to go to court and pay lawyers and court costs to make them pay? Why not fix the entire system rather than just the symptoms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 This isn't that difficult. If change occurs it MUST come from politicians at the county level or higher. Until that happens, everyone is just standing in a giant circle jerk while more houses stand in danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1286464334' post='927733'] ok... then I suppose you can answer the question I had... Can a fire dept legally put a lien on someones house to make them pay for the full cost of a fire? If not, do they have to go to court and pay lawyers and court costs to make them pay? Why not fix the entire system rather than just the symptoms? [/quote] I completely agree, but it doesnt mean we shouldnt treat the symptom while we work towards a cure of the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 [quote name='CincyInDC' timestamp='1286466142' post='927745'] This isn't that difficult. If change occurs it MUST come from politicians at the county level or higher. Until that happens, everyone is just standing in a giant circle jerk while more houses stand in danger. [/quote] Well hopefully this disaster will at least open some people's eyes and the problem will get the attention it needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1286462171' post='927723'] No I didnt. You miss the point, people complaining about dont tax me so high, well guess where taxes should be going? To stuff like this. And guess where they end up going when you dont take care of things on the front end of it. Its the same with the bailouts/stimulus. Had people not been complaining about paying taxes on the front end, regulators would have more budgets to deal with watching industry. If we would pay a little more tax for federally funded elections we could the fight lobbyists that cost us for convincing the politicians to deregulate to begin with wouldnt have the power they do and we would likely see alot more things going on for the people as opposed to for the corporation. Its as simple as an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. But people cant see the forest for the trees anymore, they simple care only about themselves. [/quote] I think sometimes you and I see more eye to eye than you think... and I think that gets lost on a message board instead of a real human conversation.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.