MSNBC's Anchor O'Donnell is a Socialist

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289526356' post='940095']
Yes your taking out of context. I mean to say you people that are against social programs and you people that think the government cant do anything right.

I agree take advantage of it, I have no issue with that at all.

I do have issue with people that might hint at it being socialism.
[/quote]

[b]so·cial·ism[/b]
   /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Show Spelled[soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2.
procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3.
(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

...but by definition it is.

I don't have a choice whether it comes out of my check or not...

I do not have a choice whether medicare comes out of my check... or social security....or the next great "plan"

Do I think we need a certain amount of social programs to function as a society? Yes

Do I think the government has already gone way too far in some cases? Yes

Do I think they could do more in others? Yes

Am I royally pissed because the government wants to use my money to pay for Health Care reform that is awful and pushed through in such a thugish dirty manner? Fuck yes I am!

The more social programs we make the more dependants the government aquires and in turn puts more burden on those who do work and pay taxes.....and it all creates an ever growing lower class.....

Keep taking from the people who work to become the "haves" and give to the "have nots" and you will also make them "have nots" eventually....

Let that class keep growing and you will end up with revolution....

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289526417' post='940097']
No it doesnt, its not socialism.
[/quote]

Did I miss something?

I don't get it.

If you think Unemployment is not Socialism,
then why did you ask Backer if he recieved unemployment?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1289526637' post='940098']
[b]so·cial·ism[/b]
   /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Show Spelled[soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2.
procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3.
(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

...but by definition it is.

I don't have a choice whether it comes out of my check or not...

I do not have a choice whether medicare comes out of my check... or social security....or the next great "plan"

Do I think we need a certain amount of social programs to function as a society? Yes

Do I think the government has already gone too far in some cases? Yes

Do I think they could do more in others? Yes
[/quote]


That has been my argument all along we need if were going to be simplistic about it, a mixed economy, Ive been arguing that since the days that CHD used to post here (miss that guy).

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289526652' post='940100']
Did I miss something?

I don't get it.

If you think Unemployment is not Socialism,
then why did you ask Backer if he recieved unemployment?
[/quote]


I'm pointing out where I think someone who is against the big government takeover, is taking advantage (and I have no issue with anyone doing so) of that big government.

[creechnasty]

Not to nitpick or ruin this wonderfully respectful debate but I'm fairly sure employers pay for unemployment, not employees paying into it.

Carry on.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1289526637' post='940098']
[b]so·cial·ism[/b]
   /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Show Spelled[soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2.
procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3.
(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

...but by definition it is.

I don't have a choice whether it comes out of my check or not...

I do not have a choice whether medicare comes out of my check... or social security....or the next great "plan"

Do I think we need a certain amount of social programs to function as a society? Yes

Do I think the government has already gone way too far in some cases? Yes

Do I think they could do more in others? Yes

Am I royally pissed because the government wants to use my money to pay for Health Care reform that is awful and pushed through in such a thugish dirty manner? Fuck yes I am!
[/quote]



The difference between unemployment and Healthcare is you have to work and qualify for
unemployment. You have to do nothing to qualify for Health Care.

Also, I think some social programs are good things. I am not against Welfare. I am against
people living off of it with no desire to have more or get off it. I also think welfare is abused
because once someone gets on it, it actually doesn't pay to get a job.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289526814' post='940101']
I'm pointing out where I think someone who is against the big government takeover, is taking advantage (and I have no issue with anyone doing so) of that big government.
[/quote]


That is a stretch. There is a big, huge, gigantic difference between getting a benefit that
you have to work for, and being against the Government taking over everything.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289526943' post='940103']
The difference between unemployment and Healthcare is you have to work and qualify for
unemployment. You have to do nothing to qualify for Health Care.

Also, I think some social programs are good things. I am not against Welfare. I am against
people living off of it with no desire to have more or get off it. I also think welfare is abused
because once someone gets on it, it actually doesn't pay to get a job.
[/quote]

I agree with you.....

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289527093' post='940105']
That is a stretch. There is a big, huge, gigantic difference between getting a benefit that
you have to work for, and being against the Government taking over everything.
[/quote]


They arent taking over everything.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289524346' post='940083']
Thanks. I am glad I have your blessing. (Damn sarcasm font isn't working)
It really doesn't matter what you thought.

And my performance in this thread was no different than your's.

I am also sure that it doesn't matter what I post, your opinion
of me will not change one bit. But that's OK. I am not here for
your approval.
[/quote]
Well, considering that you threatened to leave the Go-Bengals board altogether during your temper tantrum yesterday, I thought I might offer a little olive branch. I wouldn't want the rest of the members here to suffer from your efforts at the top of the board because you can't handle a little controversy.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289527230' post='940107']
They arent taking over everything.
[/quote]

You yourself said "someone who is against the big government takeover, is taking advantage of that big government.

If the Government became Socialists they would be taking over everything.

So being against Socialism is being against that.
That was my point.

And working for a benefit is working for a benefit.
It is not taking advantage of Big Government.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1289527409' post='940108']
Well, considering that you threatened to leave the Go-Bengals board altogether during your temper tantrum yesterday, I thought I might offer a little olive branch. I wouldn't want the rest of the members here to suffer from your efforts at the top of the board because you can't handle a little controversy.
[/quote]


No temper tantrum. Just speaking my mind.

Olive branch? LOL Just more attempts at degrading.
Take your fake olive branch and stuff it.

I just think someone that claims to be tolerant and intellectual should
know how to talk to people a little better.

Jamie said I carried shit into this thread. But It seems to me you have carried
preconcieved notions and biases into every thread. But somehow, you are better?
LOL

Also, I would think as long as I have been a member of this board
and all I have done here, that I would have already earned enough
respect here to not be called a derogatory term. Ecspecially after
I made it abundantly clear that I took strong offense to it.
You don't think so? Great. I can not make people treat me the
way I have been treating them. I can only control how I react to it.
Doesn't mean I have to, or will tolerate it. No matter what Go says
or thinks of you.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289527570' post='940109']
You yourself said "someone who is against the big government takeover, is taking advantage of that big government.

If the Government became Socialists they would be taking over everything.

So being against Socialism is being against that.
That was my point.

And working for a benefit is working for a benefit.
It is not taking advantage of Big Government.
[/quote]


And they arent taking over everything.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289528242' post='940111']
And they arent taking over everything.
[/quote]

I don't know if they are or not.

If we are in a Plutocracy, then I would say we are heading that way.
You think the Plutocrats or Plutopublicans (are those even a words? If not, I just made them)
wouldn't like to take over everything? You think they won't influence policies ect?

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289528017' post='940110']
No temper tantrum. Just speaking my mind.

Olive branch? LOL Just more attempts at degrading.
Take your fake olive branch and stuff it.

I just think someone that claims to be tolerant and intellectual should
know how to talk to people a little better.

Jamie said I carried shit into this thread. But It seems to me you have carried
preconcieved notions and biases into every thread. But somehow, you are better?
LOL

Also, I would think as long as I have been a member of this board
and all I have done here, that I would have already earned enough
respect here to not be called a derogatory term. Ecspecially after
I made it abundantly clear that I took strong offense to it.
You don't think so? Great. I can not make people treat me the
way I have been treating them. I can only control how I react to it.
Doesn't mean I have to, or will tolerate it. No matter what Go says
or thinks of you.
[/quote]
I haven't the faintest clue of what Go thinks of me. He has never expressed an opinion to me.

I presume you are referring to my lumping you in with the chickenhawk crowd. Well, all I can say about that is that actions speak louder than words. You defend wars that ought never to have been fought, you side with those who would sanction and perform torture on captured (and thus, in an important way, helpless) foes, and you quite often display that there is a boiling rage bubbling under the surface of your demeanor. I guess you can deflect all that stuff onto me for calling you out on it, it's certainly easier than taking a good, hard look in the mirror.

Oh, and by the way, nice try at "rehabilitating" yourself by posting the really old news about vets committing suicide at high rates. I'd take you more seriously if you weren't such an apologist for all these imperial wars with the concommitant barbarity to which we now stoop.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1289519819' post='940070']

And as far as I am concerned, you are welcome in this forum any time, oldschooler. [b]The way I see it, the more you post, the more we'll discover that you are a two-bit Emperor with No Clothes[/b].[/quote]


That is quite a lovely Olive Branch you have extended there.

You should take your talents on the road and see if you can
work the next Palestine-Israel peace talks.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289528704' post='940114']
I don't know if they are or not.

If we are in a Plutocracy, then I would say we are heading that way.
You think the Plutocrats or Plutopublicans (are those even a words? If not, I just made them)
wouldn't like to take over everything? You think they won't influence policies ect?
[/quote]


Its the difference between working for the elite and working for us, we need government and we need it to work for us.

Let me give you an example of the craziness that is driving me nuts (I am literally starting to get grey hairs, though I dont know that its from this.)

I have a friend who has Parkinsons, he cant work and is on medicaid. I am quite ok with my tax dollars going to ensure he can eat and have health care.

This whole "ZOMG OBMA IS A SOCALIST" stuff has gotten in his head too, this guy literally lining himself up with people who want to end programs that he is benefiting from, and in my opinion has every right to benefit from.

We have reached a level of crazy in this country that anything that is mildly socalistic as in social program needs to be repealed.

These things are designed for people like him, we shouldnt be throwing them out. If you want to discuss how to improve them I'm all ears, but the crazy has to stop. (and I'm talking in the general sense not aiming that at you)

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1289529231' post='940117']
I haven't the faintest clue of what Go thinks of me. He has never expressed an opinion to me.

I presume you are referring to my lumping you in with the chickenhawk crowd. Well, all I can say about that is that actions speak louder than words. You defend wars that ought never to have been fought, you side with those who would sanction and perform torture on captured (and thus, in an important way, helpless) foes, and you quite often display that there is a boiling rage bubbling under the surface of your demeanor. I guess you can deflect all that stuff onto me for calling you out on it, it's certainly easier than taking a good, hard look in the mirror.

Oh, and by the way, nice try at "rehabilitating" yourself by posting the really old news about vets committing suicide at high rates. I'd take you more seriously if you weren't such an apologist for all these imperial wars with the concommitant barbarity to which we now stoop.
[/quote]



Go said "it would be a cold day in hell, before he lost his most "level-headed political poster".
So obviously you have carte blanche in this part of the site. I would also say it is safe to assume
that he thinks pretty highly of you.

I am not going to get into that. I spoke my piece more than enough in the other thread.
This thread is about something entirely different. You want to rehash it or talk about it,
then copy something I said and talk about it in THAT thread.

Also, that article was posted 3 hours ago. It was 2 hours old when I found it and posted it.

[url="http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ip7r1SIPog5ds_RyeomhhRTvdZxA?docId=CNG.56d1f55752a2aab0626aee89d327544b.9a1"]http://www.google.co...e89d327544b.9a1[/url]


And one last time. I don't care what you think. I am not here for your approval.
So please get over yourself.

[Jamie_B]

Also let me give another example.

Adam Smith is widely accepted as the father of capitalism.

I put a quote by him in my sig, "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion." - Adam Smith

In this environment Adam Smith, the father of capitalism, would be considered a socialist.

You dont find any irony in that?

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289532056' post='940123']
Also let me give another example.

Adam Smith is widely accepted as the father of capitalism.

I put a quote by him in my sig, "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion." - Adam Smith

In this environment Adam Smith, the father of capitalism, would be considered a socialist.

You dont find any irony in that?
[/quote]

The vast majority of people who rail against socialism actually fear communism and have nary a clue what either term really means...

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1289534579' post='940128']
The vast majority of people who rail against socialism actually fear communism and have nary a clue what either term really means...
[/quote]


completely agree

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='creechnasty' timestamp='1289526858' post='940102']
Not to nitpick or ruin this wonderfully respectful debate but I'm fairly sure employers pay for unemployment, not employees paying into it.

Carry on.
[/quote]

hey...HEY.. if your going to use facts and reality in an argument you're going to be banned from this forum all together pal.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1289421275' post='939708']
This is my point I have been trying to make....


At what point does government involvement in your life become too much?

::snip::
[/quote]

Goin back a few posts for this one.

I find it ironic that the party of "small government," who detest the "hands on" approach of the democrats seem to have no problem wanting to regulate your morality and personal freedoms.

"We'll cut wasteful spending and make sure you keep that money in your paycheck...then we'll make sure that two consenting adults in love can't have the same legal rights because they both have penises and while we're at it lets assure kids don't have access to medically accurate sex education and we better keep marijuana illegal, wouldn't want those dangerous minorities hanging out at the playgrounds selling it to your kids and destroying their future."

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1289537235' post='940156']
Goin back a few posts for this one.

I find it ironic that the party of "small government," who detest the "hands on" approach of the democrats seem to have no problem wanting to regulate your morality and personal freedoms.

"We'll cut wasteful spending and make sure you keep that money in your paycheck...then we'll make sure that two consenting adults in love can't have the same legal rights because they both have penises and while we're at it lets assure kids don't have access to medically accurate sex education and we better keep marijuana illegal, wouldn't want those dangerous minorities hanging out at the playgrounds selling it to your kids and destroying their future."
[/quote]


There ya go...

[Jamie_B]

Puppy Socialism - http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-november-11-2010/big-red-dogs

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1289537235' post='940156']
Goin back a few posts for this one.

I find it ironic that the party of "small government," who detest the "hands on" approach of the democrats seem to have no problem wanting to regulate your morality and personal freedoms.

"We'll cut wasteful spending and make sure you keep that money in your paycheck...then we'll make sure that two consenting adults in love can't have the same legal rights because they both have penises and while we're at it lets assure kids don't have access to medically accurate sex education and we better keep marijuana illegal, wouldn't want those dangerous minorities hanging out at the playgrounds selling it to your kids and destroying their future."
[/quote]

Great post. Most Evangelical conservatives have always had a problem with that "Pursuit of Happiness" idea, unless it fits within their moral dogma.