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Guantanamo Bay = Disgusting, & Shameful


Guest BlackJesus

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Guest BlackJesus
[i][color="red"]Guantanamo Bay in my mind has become a shameful,disgusting black eye on the American government and the so called "human rights" that we preach to the rest of the world. We are playing stupid little word games by saying (technically they aren't POWs, or enemy combatants, and by defining it as a broad "War on Terror" with no ending they never have to be released. The prisoners are not told what they have been charged with, provided no Lawyer, and subjected to humiliating tactics (for a culture where these acts are worse than killing them). For the West who gets upset when some white chick gets 20 years for Pot in Asia, we have no place to lecture the Russian government and their gross practices in Chechnya, or Fuck for that sake any Dictator or Tyrant who uses these methods.

Also the U.S. is sending captives to countries for the sole purpose of being tortured.... and then claiming "we didn't know what was gong to happen to them"... All this is doing is creating future enemies...... For instance =

5 of the top 6 Members in Al Qaeda currently, were allies of the United States in Afghanistan, trained by the CIA and supplied by the US govt to repel the soviets. After their victory the U.S. didn't like their policies so the U.S. then betrayed most of them and sent them to their host countries to be severly tortured for years. For instance Zarqawi and the # 2 man in Al Qaeda both were tortured for years in their home governments after the U.S. traded them in to Egypt and Jordan and then payed off their governments to torture them. (No wonder the fuckers want to crash planes into our buildings) So now we have started doing it again (not sure if we ever stopped). [/color][/i]

[color="red"]Info Below [/color]


[img]http://www.thegully.com/essays/cuba/cuba_img/guantanamo-bay-tower.jpg[/img]

[color="red"][u][b]Guantánamo Bay - a human rights scandal
Amnesty International [/color][/b][/u]


Hypocrisy, an overarching war mentality and a disregard for basic human rights principles and international legal obligations continue to mark the USA's "war on terror". Serious human rights violations are the inevitable result.
The detention camp at the US Naval Base in Guantánamo Bay in Cuba has become a symbol of the US administration’s refusal to put human rights and the rule of law at the heart of its response to the atrocities of 11 September 2001. Hundreds of people of around 35 different nationalities remain held in effect in a legal black hole, many without access to any court, legal counsel or family visits.

As evidence of torture and widespread cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment mounts, it is more urgent than ever that the US Government bring the Guantánamo Bay detention camp and any other facilities it is operating outside the USA into full compliance with international law and standards. The only alternative is to close them down.



[u]Alleged detention and interrogation practices [/u]

The following are some of the detention or interrogation practices that are alleged to have been authorized or used by the USA during the "war on terror". Some appear to have been tailored to specific cultural or religious sensitivities of the detainees, thereby introducing a discriminatory element to the abuse. Techniques are often used in combination. Neither gender nor age has offered protection. Children, the elderly, women and men are reported to have been among the subjects of torture or ill-treatment. This list does not claim to be exhaustive.

Abduction
Barbed wire, forced to walk barefoot on
Blindfolding
"Burking" – hand over detainee’s mouth/nose to prevent breathing
Cell extraction, brutal/punitive use of
Chemical/pepper spray, misuse of
Cigarette burns
Claustrophia-inducing techniques, e.g. tied headfirst in sleeping bag, shut in lockers
Death threats
Dietary manipulation
Dogs used to threaten and intimidate
Dousing in cold water
Electric shocks, threats of electric shocks
Exposure to weather and temperature extremes, especially via air-conditioning
Flags, wrapped in Israeli or US flags during or prior to interrogation
Food and water deprivation
Forced shaving, ie of head, body or facial hair
Forcible injections, including with unidentified substances
Ground, forced to lie on bare ground while agents stand on back or back of legs
Hooding
Hostage-taking, i.e. individuals detained to force surrender of relatives
Humiliation, eg forced crawling, forced to make animal noises, being urinated upon.
Immersion in water to induce perception of drowning
Incommunicado detention
Induced perception of suffocation or asyphxiation
Light deprivation
Loud music, noise, yelling
Mock execution
Photography and videoing as humiliation
Physical assault, eg punching, kicking, beatings with hands, hose, batons, guns, etc
Physical exercise to the point of exhaustion, e.g. "ups and downs", carrying rocks
Piling, i.e. detainee is sat on or jumped on by one or more people ("dog/pig pile")
Prolonged interrogations, eg 20 hours
Racial and religious taunts, humiliation
Relatives, denial of access to, excessive censorship of communications with
Religious intolerance, eg disrespect for Koran, religious rituals
Secret detention
Secret transfer
Sensory deprivation
Sexual humiliation
Sexual assault
Shackles and handcuffs, excessive and cruel use of. Includes "short shackling"
Sleep adjustment
Sleep deprivation
Solitary confinement for prolonged periods, eg months or more than a year
Stress positions, eg prolonged forced kneeling and standing
Stripping, nudity, excessive or humiliating use of
Strip searches, excessive or humiliating use of
Strobe lighting
Suspension, with use of handcuffs/shackles
Threat of rape
Threats of reprisals against relatives
Threat of transfer to third country to inspire fear of torture or death
Threat of transfer to Guantánamo
Threats of torture or ill-treatment
Twenty-four hour bright lighting
Withdrawal of "comfort items", including religious items
Withholding of information, e.g. not telling detainee where he is
Withholding of medication
Withholding of toilet facilities, leading to defecation and urination in clothing


[img]http://www.thememoryhole.org/mil/gitmo-prisoners02.jpg[/img]

[u]USA’s “war on terror” detainees, April 2005[/u]

(approximate totals/estimates)

USA: Naval Brig, Charleston, South Carolina 2 “enemy combatants”
Cuba: Guantánamo Bay naval base 520
(234 releases/transfers)
Afghanistan: Bagram air base 300
Afghanistan: Kandahar air base 250
Afghanistan: other US facilities (forward operating bases) Unknown: estimated at scores of detainees
Iraq: Camp Bucca 6,300
Iraq: Abu Ghraib prison 3,500
Iraq: Camp Cropper 110
Iraq: Other US facilities 1,300
Worldwide: CIA facilities, undisclosed locations Unknown: estimated at 40 detainees
Worldwide: In custody of other governments at behest of USA Unknown: estimated at several thousand detainees
Worldwide: Secret transfers of detainees to third countries Unknown: estimated at 100 to 150 detainees
Foreign nationals held outside the USA and charged for trial 4
Trials of foreign nationals held in US custody outside the USA 0
Total number of detainees held outside the USA by the US during “war on terror” 70,000


[u]Observer Accounts[/u]

"Here is a brief summary of what I observed at GTMO. On a couple of occassions (sic), I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food, or water. Most times they had urinated or defacated (sic) on themselves and had been left there for 18, 24 hours or more. On one occassion (sic), the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. When I asked the [military police guards] what was going on, I was told that interrogators from the day prior had ordered this treatment, and the detainee was not to be moved. On another occassion (sic), the A/C had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room probably well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his own hair out throughout the night. On another occassion (sic), not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor."


"One prisoner had removed his ID-strap that the prisoners were forced to wear around their wrist. As punishment, the guards shackled both his hands and feet in his cell for more than 10 hours. During this time, the prisoner was not given any food and was not allowed to go to the toilet, although he had to. He could not hold himself. It was very degrading for him."


"Not only did caregivers pass health information to military intelligence personnel; physicians assisted in the design of interrogation strategies, including sleep deprivation and other coercive methods tailored to detainees’ medical conditions. Medical personnel also coached interrogators on questioning technique"






[u]Guantánamo Bay -- a human rights scandal[/u]



Despite a major international outcry and expert condemnation of US government policy, hundreds of people of around 35 different nationalities remain held in a legal black hole at the US Naval Base in Guantánamo Bay in Cuba, many without access to any court, legal counsel or family visits. Denied their rights under international law and held in conditions which may amount to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, the detainees face severe psychological distress. There have been numerous suicide attempts.

As more evidence surfaces that the abuse of Guantánamo detainees has been widespread, it is ever more urgent to end the plight of the detainees. US authorities must bring all detainees to trial, in full accordance with international law and standards, or else release them immediately and unconditionally.

Many of those held were captured during the international conflict in Afghanistan, from where transfers to the Naval Base began in January 2002 under harsh conditions of transportation. Others were arrested elsewhere and handed over to the US authorities. Sporadic transfers to, and releases from, the base continue, but the precise numbers, identities and nationalities of those held has never been made public.


None of the detainees have been granted prisoner of war status or brought before a “competent tribunal” to determine his status, as required by Article 5 of the Third Geneva Convention. The US government refuses to clarify their legal status, despite calls from the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) to do so. Instead, the US government labels them “enemy combatants” or “terrorists”, flouting their right to be presumed innocent and illegally presuming justification for the denial of many of their most basic human rights.

US Secretary of Defence, Donald Rumsfeld, has repeatedly referred to those held at Guantánamo as “hard core, well-trained terrorists”, and “among the most dangerous, best-trained vicious killers on the face of the earth” and has linked them directly to the attacks of 11 September 2001.Vice President Dick Cheney has also labelled the detainees as “the worst of a very bad lot. They are very dangerous. They are devoted to killing millions of Americans.” Despite these blanket allegations, scores of detainees have been released from the base without charge. No compensation has been offered for the many months they were illegally detained at Guantánamo.


In April 2002 the detainees were transferred from the small wire-mesh cages at the temporary Camp X-Ray to the confines of Camp Delta where the majority are held in maximum security blocks in cells even smaller than before, sometimes for up to 24 hours a day and with very little out-of-cell exercise time. The detainees have also been subjected to repeated interrogations sometimes for hours at a time and without the presence of a lawyer, raising fears that statements may have been extracted under coercion. The ICRC is the only non-governmental organization allowed access to the detainees. Further information
We don't torture people in America
AMR 51/128/2003


With no opportunity to challenge the lawfulness of their detention and the prospect of indefinite detention without trial in such conditions, the potential psychological impact upon those held is a major concern. The ICRC delegation has stated that it has observed a “worrying deterioration” in the mental health of a large number of the detainees, and that their psychological condition has become a “major problem”. Efforts to obtain justice in the US courts have so far been unsuccessful, with the courts holding that they do not have jurisdiction over the detainees, because they are foreign nationals held outside US sovereign territory.



[u]Military commissions – A stain on US justice[/u]

In November 2001, President Bush signed a Military Order establishing trials by military commission which have the power to hand down death sentences and against whose decisions there will be no right of appeal to any court. Further information

15 foreign nationals held at Guantánamo have since been named as the first to be tried under the Military Order, amid mounting international concern that any trial before the military commissions would be intrinsically unfair. Four men have already appeared before pre-trial commission hearings with the first full trial scheduled for December 2004. In addition to the lack of right to appeal, the commissions will lack independence and will restrict the right of defendants to choose their own counsel and to an effective defence. The commissions will also accept a lower standard of evidence than in ordinary courts. This could include evidence extracted under torture or coercion. Lord Steyn, a judge from the UK’s highest court had said that such trials would be “a stain on United States justice”.

[img]http://www.postcardsfromprison.com/p7828.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i.cnn.net/cnn/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/maps/guantanamo.bay.jpg[/img]

Long detailed report if interested
[url="http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510632005"]http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510632005[/url]
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Guest BlackJesus
[b]I guess I just wish that Americans could be "objective" about the whole thing and not look at things in these simplistic terms of "Good and Evil" or "Gods People and Terrorist"....

To the rest of the world we look like a bunch of hooligan idiotic disgraceful clowns who have been piling up naked bodies, shoving shit up dudes asses, having chicks walk around naked guys on collars, sending off Detainees to Tyrant governments to be tortured, captives have been mysteriously dying, we have been using water torture etc. (All practices we say are illegal), and then Bush gets up on stage to the Iraqis and says we are here "To liberate you from a tyrant with torture chambers" = Hello Dumbfuck what do you call what we are doing?


Also the misues of the Word Terrorist is very frustrating:

"One mans terrorist is another mans Freedom fighter"

Men who have been labeled by the US government as Terrorists in the 20th century

- Nelson Mandela
- Ghandi
- MLK
etc


To give you an analogy if you have seen the Movie "Braveheart" .... I am sure you rooted for William Wallace... (to fight off the oppressive English) well how is that different from an insurgent in the middle East or a Palestinian who is forced to live in a caged in shithole with no rights.
(Terrorists don't fall out of thin air, they are created when you continually kick someone when they are down and destroy all of their sense of identity and dignity. That is what drives a man to blow himself up.... Not "evil".[/b]
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Guest steggyD
Gotta remember, those are people doing that, not a country. I know, now you'll say something like, well the rest of the world looks at it like a country's actions. Well, I don't care.

It's like CAX that I used to go to in the USMC. We were told not to throw the canopy wipes into the portapotties, because the cleaners will not clean it out with them in there. Someone would always throw them in there and a Marine would be picked to clean the canopy wipes out. Did that Marine do it? Maybe not, but it was the actions of that one jackass that screws it up.

I know this was many jackasses, but I don't think it really scars our entire nation. That's just blowing it out of proportion in my book. We didn't impale them, or cut their heads off on camera.
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Guest BlackJesus
[quote]Gotta remember, those are people doing that, not a country.[/quote]

Above Post
[quote]Alleged detention and interrogation practices

The following are some of the detention or interrogation practices that are alleged to have been authorized or used by the USA during the "war on terror". Some appear to have been tailored to specific cultural or religious sensitivities of the detainees, thereby introducing a discriminatory element to the abuse. Techniques are often used in combination. Neither gender nor age has offered protection. Children, the elderly, women and men are reported to have been among the subjects of torture or ill-treatment. This list does not claim to be exhaustive.

Abduction
Barbed wire, forced to walk barefoot on
Blindfolding
"Burking" – hand over detainee’s mouth/nose to prevent breathing
Cell extraction, brutal/punitive use of
Chemical/pepper spray, misuse of
Cigarette burns
Claustrophia-inducing techniques, e.g. tied headfirst in sleeping bag, shut in lockers
Death threats
Dietary manipulation
Dogs used to threaten and intimidate
Dousing in cold water
Electric shocks, threats of electric shocks
Exposure to weather and temperature extremes, especially via air-conditioning
Flags, wrapped in Israeli or US flags during or prior to interrogation
Food and water deprivation
Forced shaving, ie of head, body or facial hair
Forcible injections, including with unidentified substances
Ground, forced to lie on bare ground while agents stand on back or back of legs
Hooding
Hostage-taking, i.e. individuals detained to force surrender of relatives
Humiliation, eg forced crawling, forced to make animal noises, being urinated upon.
Immersion in water to induce perception of drowning
Incommunicado detention
Induced perception of suffocation or asyphxiation
Light deprivation
Loud music, noise, yelling
Mock execution
Photography and videoing as humiliation
Physical assault, eg punching, kicking, beatings with hands, hose, batons, guns, etc
Physical exercise to the point of exhaustion, e.g. "ups and downs", carrying rocks
Piling, i.e. detainee is sat on or jumped on by one or more people ("dog/pig pile")
Prolonged interrogations, eg 20 hours
Racial and religious taunts, humiliation
Relatives, denial of access to, excessive censorship of communications with
Religious intolerance, eg disrespect for Koran, religious rituals
Secret detention
Secret transfer
Sensory deprivation
Sexual humiliation
Sexual assault
Shackles and handcuffs, excessive and cruel use of. Includes "short shackling"
Sleep adjustment
Sleep deprivation
Solitary confinement for prolonged periods, eg months or more than a year
Stress positions, eg prolonged forced kneeling and standing
Stripping, nudity, excessive or humiliating use of
Strip searches, excessive or humiliating use of
Strobe lighting
Suspension, with use of handcuffs/shackles
Threat of rape
Threats of reprisals against relatives
Threat of transfer to third country to inspire fear of torture or death
Threat of transfer to Guantánamo
Threats of torture or ill-treatment
Twenty-four hour bright lighting
Withdrawal of "comfort items", including religious items
Withholding of information, e.g. not telling detainee where he is
Withholding of medication
Withholding of toilet facilities, leading to defecation and urination in clothing[/quote]

[b]
These practices are handed down from the top..... these interogators don't just find strobe lights or water chambers in the middle of Cuba they are supplied with them to torture.... and the practice of sending them to other countries is basically US official policy. I guess what is scary is no matter what happens many "Americans" always think that the US government can do no wrong.... but remember the govt is just people. a collection of mostly white wealthy, ivy league educated, men who know shit about foriegn policy and don't realize the fall out of their actions to the rest of the world. When the Americans arrived in Germany after WWII the German people said the same thing "that, it was just individuals doing the exterminating not a govt, (we are not to the point of death camps, but for these detainees Death would be the preferred treatment. That is why we aren't killing them they would rather die than be forced to have something up their ass and lay naked on another man. [/b]

[b]I guess I would compare it to you being captured.... and then would you rather
A. be shot
B. be made to have sex with your own child repeatedly.....

Most people because of the psychological hooror would prefer death.... that is the situation we are putting these men by enacting homosexuality which to them is the worse tabboo imaginable.[/b]
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Guest steggyD
I look at it differently though. Did you authorize this use of torture? Did I authorize this use of torture? Anyone else here authorize this? Just because it was authorized, I don't think it really should paint a picture of human rights here in America. That's how I look at it.
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[quote name='BlackJesus' date='May 31 2005, 11:41 PM'](Terrorists don't fall out of thin air, they are created when you continually kick someone when they are down and destroy all of their sense of identity and dignity.  That is what drives a man to blow himself up.... Not "evil".
[right][post="98082"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


BULLSHIT!!!!
Their warped religious ideals are what turn them into kamakazis.
They have been told that Allah has a special place in Heaven for them.
And a strong sense of identity is one thing they have in spades.
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Guest BlackJesus

[quote]BULLSHIT!!!!
Their warped religious ideals are what turn them into kamakazis.
They have been told that Allah has a special place in Heaven for them.
And a strong sense of identity is one thing they have in spades.[/quote]


[b]Do Christians not believe that if they follow the works of Jesus that they go to Heaven ??? Are their christians that believe that the war on terror is doing the will of God by protecting the homeland? Do many of these proclaimed Christian soldiers think that killing fellow men in battle will disqualify them from heaven? - No in fact they have now morphed christianity and nationalism almost together (to my disgust)....

Believe me I am the first to point out Religions negative impact on people, society etc. and dispise religion to the point where I would like to see it eradicated all together... however I believe that if swapped places many of the same men and women on this board or in any case would believe closely to how these men do and possibly act out in a simlar fashion.

How many Americans do you hear say (if anyone comes in my house or threatens my family I'll kill them) Now imagine that Iran tomorrow claimed they were liberating us Americans from Bush and we woke up and were informed that Iran had now captured Bush and Iranian troops started walking your neighborhood, arresting your nieghbors, abusing your wife, and then claimed that they were there to liberate you. Would you not contemplate taking up arms, or defending your family or even using explosives to repel them ???? [/b]


[quote]Hang them one by one for all I care.[/quote]

[b]Nice..... <_< Lets just start hanging any brown person we find walking around the middle East.... "hey they were present when we invaded" <_< I love how we justify these men being in Afghanistan and armed when we attacked it, as them being an enemy of the US Govt..... [/b]

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Guest BlackJesus
[b]The it is not a "country" but "individuals" is also a very weak and incomplete argument. Last time I checked "Countries" are not personified entities, and countries can't do anything.... people representing those countries however can. And the leadership for those countries usually provides the direction for what is done. For instance Germany as a country did not exterminate Jews, German citizens in uniforms did.


I just wish that Americans understood that sometimes we can also be the eptiomy of what disgusts us, when we witness it in others. [/b]
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Guest BlackJesus
[color="blue"][b]Also detention would not be as aggregious if we provided them with

- What they were being charged with (everyone has the right to know why they are being held)
- A chance to speak on those charges and answer their allegations
- Some sort of outside contact to monitor that they are being treated humanley according to the international standards we expect of our captives


Also there should be transperency for the public
For instance
- who is in there
- why were they brought there
- how long are they beind held for
- what recouse do they have to prove innocense[/b][/color]
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Guest bengaljet
Several yrs ago a non-American(can't remember which country) was asked why they hated the "American people" so much. He said it wasn't the US people but the US Gov't. He said they are 2 different things. I will always remember that-I'm not being un-American but just taking a different look. Gee,WHY do these bastards hate the US so much?Because of our way of life,jealous of our freedoms--I really doubt either. So why? Religion-they want us to become Muslims-I doubt.

Last wk on the news there was a guy(country+name?) that said there are COUNTRIES that want W,Rumsfeld and others to be tried for "crimes vs humanity". This guy was NOT from the Middle East. The COUNTRIES that he was talking about I missed(got in at the end).

9/11 happened-Bin Laden still roams,BUT Saddam is gone. We've spent billions $$,lost thousands of lives. A large % 0f the world questions our actions-they are all wrong and we are all right. W was asked about N. Korea and he says"I'm a negotiator" and I question"no chit"? Where's Bin Laden-wasn't he public enemy #1?

I think it will take 10-20 yrs before we know the good or bad of Iraq. I really hope I'm wrong,but I think before it's over it'll be hard to find someone who voted for W.

BJ and Go,I thought in the past that you supported W. just wondering?
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Guest BlackJesus
:angry2: :angry2: :angry2: :angry2:

[color="green"][b]That is it I can't take it anymore.... I am now convinced that George Bush is either
A) Retarded
B ) a complete idiotic Fucktard who lacks any logic
C) a Corrupt asshole who preys on the publics stupidity



This is what he said today about the charges[/color][/b]

(my comments are in blue)


[u]Bush: Amnesty report 'absurd'
Tuesday, May 31, 2005
CNN
[/u]


WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush called a human rights report "absurd" for criticizing the United States' detention of terrorist suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and said Tuesday the allegations were made by "people who hate America."[color="blue"](great one dumbass, always go back to the, they hate us line, Amnesty Intl has no political agenda, and the US uses their reports all the time to site other countrys abuses)[/color]

"It's absurd. It's an absurd allegation. The United States is a country that promotes freedom around the world,"[color="blue"](Like where dumbfuck, when we are hiring contras in C Ameirca, or supporting Saddam against Iran, or when we supported the Indonesian genoicide of millions, or maybe the Chinese govt now who has imprisoned or killed hundreds of thousands, or maybe all the dictators we have put in power throughout the world... freedom is more than a cell phone and a big mac)[/color] Bush said of the Amnesty International report that compared Guantanamo to a Soviet-era gulag.

In a Rose Garden news conference, Bush defiantly stood by his domestic policy agenda while defending his actions abroad. With the death toll climbing daily in Iraq, he said that nation's fledging government is "plenty capable" of defeating terrorists whose attacks on Iraqi civilians and U.S. soldiers have intensified.

Bush spoke after separate air crashes killed four American and four Italian troops in Iraq. The governor of Anbar province, taken hostage three weeks ago, was killed during clashes between U.S. forces and the insurgents who abducted him.

Bush said the job of the U.S. forces there is to help train Iraqis to defeat terrorists.

"I think the Iraqi people dealt the insurgents a serious blow when we had the elections," Bush said. "In other words, what the insurgents fear is democracy because democracy is the opposition of their vision." [color="blue"](people would say the same thing about you, and your staunchest allies, for instance in Israel became a democracy tomorrow, the Palestinians who are the majority would vote out every Israeli there is and put in their own govt, but you just choose selective democracy)[/color]

On another foreign policy issue, Bush said he expressed concerns with Russian President Vladimir Putin about legal proceedings against former oil tycoon Mikhail Khodorkovsky. [color="blue"](Noooo you mean Bush is sticking up for a rich Oil tycoon)[/color] Once the richest man in Russia, Khodorkovsky was convicted Tuesday of fraud and tax evasion and sentenced to nine years in prison following a trial widely denounced as politically motivated.

Bush did not comment directly on the verdict, but said, "it looked like he had been judged guilty prior to having a fair trial." [color="blue"](My brain officially wants to explode, what do you think you are doing with the people in Afghanistan ? and you don't even provide them trials !!!!!! My God he has to be the dumbest president in the history of the world)[/color]

The president said he has questioned whether the case shows a backsliding away from the rule of law [color="blue"](The U.N. has repeatedly sited you with violation after violation of Intl Law you stupid shit) [/color]and democracy in Russia and said it will "be interesting to see" how Khodorkovsky's expected appeal is handled by the government.

"Here, you're innocent until proven guilty [color="blue"] :huh: (Not in Guantanamo !!!!)[/color] and it appeared to us, at least people in my administration, that it looked like he had been judged guilty prior to having a fair trial," [color="blue"](Please fall off a cliff, the hypocrisy is astounding)[/color] Bush said. "We're watching the ongoing case."

He said it was a "reasonable decision" to allow Iran to apply for WTO membership as a way to advance diplomatic discussions with Europe on Iran's nuclear program. In another hot spot, he urged further diplomacy to curb North Korea's nuclear ambitions. [color="blue"](Why you invaded Iraq preemptivley, now Kin Jong wants to follow your lead and preemptivley invade S Korea)[/color]

Bush opened the news conference by urging Congress to pass his stalled energy legislation, restrain the growth of government spending,[color="blue"](largest spender in US histroy)[/color] approve the Central American Free Trade Agreement and overhaul Social Security with a partial privatization plan.

He declared that the economy is strong, with 3.5 million jobs in two years and an unemployment rate of 5.2 percent. "Obviously, these are hopeful signs, but Congress can make sure the signs remain hopeful," he said in a five-minute opening statement in the Rose Garden.

After a bruising week on Capitol Hill, Bush urged both political parties to "set aside partisan differences" and work together. ( [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//13.gif[/img] )

Though he did not mention tax cuts in his opening argument, Bush said he still wants Congress to make his first-term cuts permanent. He also pledged not to give up on Social Security reform, despite intense opposition on Capitol Hill. "The easy path is to say, `Oh, we don't have a problem. Let's ignore it -- yet again."
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Guest BlackJesus
[quote]BJ and Go,I thought in the past that you supported W. just wondering?[/quote]

[b]From my recollection Go has always hated him.....

I have supported him in some measures, and also hated Kerry. (Dont care for either Dems or Repub) I wanted him to defeat Kerry because I thought he was an even bigger asshole, but now I am not so sure ,

However..... he continues to lie, and prove his ignorance and I refuse to let my past support cloud the truth [/b]



[color="gray"][i]However count me firmly now in the (Wow this guy is fucking stupid camp)[/color][/i]
[img]http://moveoncalifornia.org/bush_dumb.jpg[/img]
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Despite the murky reasoning for going into Iraq, the results of what we're doing there are markedly positive. The national media has it's own agenda (NOT left-wing necessarily, but selling newspapers, magazines, advertising time, etc) and to a fault will repeatedly report on things that happen that sell their journalistic product, i.e., death and bloodshed....where's the "scoop" in reporting refurbished schools, clean running water, rebuilt infrastructure when American soldiers are dying, dammit!

Answer: There isn't one. If it doesn't bleed or shock us, it doesn't sell, bottom line...HENCE, the negative portrayal we see on our televisions...
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Guest BlackJesus
[quote]The national media has it's own agenda (NOT left-wing necessarily, but selling newspapers, magazines, advertising time, etc) and to a fault will repeatedly report on things that happen that sell their journalistic product, i.e., death and bloodshed....where's the "scoop" in reporting refurbished schools, clean running water, rebuilt infrastructure when American soldiers are dying, dammit![/quote]

[b]Bung I think you are confusing different issues

The report by Amnesty Intl is not the Natl Media, they do not sell books or commercials etc. They are a watchdog of Govts.


I am sure there are positive things going on Iraq like school building, and public works (Hell my sister served in Iraq already) but these don't have to also exist at the same time as torture and Guantanamo. You can have one with out the other, and in fact the school building would be more effective at winning the hearts and minds if you also didn't lock up people indefinetly and not charge them with anything. [/b]
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Guest BengalBacker
The truth is somewhere in the middle.


Due process is impossible in wartime situations.

Amnesty International is not necessarily objective.

Many of these things are "allegations".

Some of them are true and unnecessary.

Some of them are probably untrue and exaggerated.

Torture should only be used as a means to extract information when it's reasonable to believe that important information can be extracted.

Soldiers are human.

We aren't cutting off heads with a machette.

We didn't carpet bomb.

The people who died in the Twin Towers didn't deserve it.

Many of the people who have died in Iraq didn't deserve it.

We side with whoever it's in our best interest to side with at the time.

We better side with whoever it's in our best interest to side with at the time, or we aren't doing what's in our own best interest.

Muslim fanatics are fucking nuts.

Christian fanatics are fucking nuts.

We aren't evil.

We aren't saints.

War is hell.

War is sometimes necessary.

Sometimes innocent lives must be lost to preserve innocent lives.

America isn't perfect, but I'm American and I believe in the things we stand for. To me, that means freedom, democracy and capitalism. You can't have any one of those three things without the other. If we could ignore the rest of the world and still have those three things, fine. We can't. Like it or not, we are the world police. That sometimes means we have to do things that aren't pleasant. You can't ignore the rest of the world and hope everyone plays nice.

I'm not saying that any abuses at Guantanamo are excusable. I'm saying that abuses are inevitable, but I don't believe that America is on the wrong side morally of what's best overall for humanity.

If you don't like Republicans or Democrats, ok. Disagree with their policies and vote for people you agree with. If you don't like America and you want to blame us for everything, get the fuck out. Go to Canada and bitch about us while living comfortably under the security blanket that we provide. Make room for the millions of Mexicans who want to come here.

Or you can get on a message board and post over-simplistic political cartoons constantly that trash your own country. You're allowed to do that in this country, unlike a lot of others.
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Guest BlackJesus

[b]My responses are in Bold.....[/b]

[quote]The truth is somewhere in the middle.
[b](not what Bush says, he says us=good, them=bad)[/b]

Due process is impossible in wartime situations.
[b](Since this War on Terror can't be won and will go on forever, then by deductive logic, Due Process is now impossible)[/b]

Amnesty International is not necessarily objective.
[b](Can you site a source or instance, other than FoxNews)[/b]

Many of these things are "allegations".
[b](they have to be, the US govt won't let them go to trial to find out)[/b]

Some of them are true and unnecessary.

Some of them are probably untrue and exaggerated.

Torture should only be used as a means to extract information when it's reasonable to believe that important information can be extracted.
[b](Not what the Geneva convention that the US agreed too says)[/b]

Soldiers are human.
[b](humans rape, doesn't mean soldiers should also)[/b]

We aren't cutting off heads with a machette.
[b](We are doing worst in their eyes and through their perspective)[/b]

We didn't carpet bomb.
[b](over 15,000 deaths from initial bombing of Iraq, only country to use Nuclear weapons, look up Dresden Germany we invented the carpet bomb, or go to an agent orange enclave in Vietnam that exist in the hundreds now)[/b]

The people who died in the Twin Towers didn't deserve it.

Many of the people who have died in Iraq didn't deserve it.

We side with whoever it's in our best interest to side with at the time.
[b](then stop saying we believe in democracy, we don't !!! we believe in our own self interest)[/b]

We better side with whoever it's in our best interest to side with at the time, or we aren't doing what's in our own best interest.

Muslim fanatics are fucking nuts.

Christian fanatics are fucking nuts.

We aren't evil.

We aren't saints.

War is hell.

War is sometimes necessary.
[b](agreed, I believe that armed struggle is often necessary)[/b]

Sometimes innocent lives must be lost to preserve innocent lives.
[b](True, but the US wants the monopoly on making this decision for the whole world)[/b]

America isn't perfect, but I'm American and I believe in the things we stand for. To me, that means freedom, [b](would this include freedom to do narcotics, sell your kidneys, be a prostitute, screw a pig, marry 2 women, marry a guy if you are a guy, drink at 20 yrs old etc)???[/b]  democracy and capitalism [b](would this be the kind we have with large farm subsidies, welfare, food stamps, corporate bailouts, large tariffs on foriegn goods, tax havens offshore, and unfettered child labor throughout the globe). [/b]You can't have any one of those three things without the other.[b](I would argue we have none)[/b] If we could ignore the rest of the world and still have those three things, fine. We can't. Like it or not, we are the world police. [b](more like the worlds nosy neighbor who shapes the geopolitical scene for economic avantage)[/b] That sometimes means we have to do things that aren't pleasant. You can't ignore the rest of the world and hope everyone plays nice.

I'm not saying that any abuses at Guantanamo are excusable. I'm saying that abuses are inevitable, but I don't believe that America is on the wrong side morally of what's best overall for humanity.

If you don't like Republicans or Democrats, ok. Disagree with their policies and vote for people you agree with. If you don't like America and you want to blame us for everything, get the fuck out. [b](I love this argument, love it or leave it, instead of change it, I am sure they said similar things to abolitionists before the civil war) [/b]Go to Canada [b](don't like clubbing seals)[/b] and bitch about us while living comfortably under the security blanket that we provide. [b](this blanket is going to develop into a shit storm if the US continues to behave like we are now)[/b]Make room for the millions of Mexicans who want to come here.  [b](have you ever driven through most of the western US... there is plenty of room now)[/b]

Or you can get on a message board and post over-simplistic political cartoons [b](not sure which ones you are refering too, I would assume the ones that I put on the anything thread which are from both sides) [/b]constantly that trash your own country. [b](is sticking up for the principals that my country gives lip service too trashing them?) [/b] You're allowed to do that in this country, unlike a lot of others.[/quote]


[b]I love that you are a Bengal Fan BB and I appreciate the opinions of everyone on the board here, but I have to point out these contradictions because not too would be against what I believe. ;) [/b]

[color="blue"][b]as always I welcome the debate on these topics, especially in a boring offseason. [/b][/color]

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Guest BengalBacker

[quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 1 2005, 02:35 AM'][b]My responses are in Bold.....[/b]
[b]I love that you are a Bengal Fan BB and I appreciate the opinions of everyone on the board here, but I have to point out these contradictions because not too would be against what I believe. ;)   [/b]

[color="blue"][b]as always I welcome the debate on these topics, especially in a boring offseason. [/b][/color]
[right][post="98163"][/post][/right][/quote]


I just get tired of your constant bashing of America and Bush. Like I've said several times, the truth always lies somewhere in the middle. Things are never as black and white as either side makes them out to be. But that's why we have a general discussions forum. I'll be bashing religion right along with you in another thread. I'm sure we both piss people off in those. :)

As far as your rebuttals to my individual points, it's 3:00 in the morning and I'm going to bed. I do have some responses to come tomorrow though.

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Guest Bengal_Smoov

[quote name='BengalBacker' date='Jun 1 2005, 02:58 AM']I just get tired of your constant bashing of America and Bush. Like I've said several times, the truth always lies somewhere in the middle. Things are never as black and white as either side makes them out to be. But that's why we have a general discussions forum. I'll be bashing religion right along with you in another thread. I'm sure we both piss people off in those.  :)

As far as your rebuttals to my individual points, it's 3:00 in the morning and I'm going to bed. I do have some responses to come tomorrow though.
[right][post="98165"][/post][/right][/quote]

HEY BACKER,

BUSH IS NOT THE SAME THING AS AMERICA..BASHING BUSH ISN'T BASHING AMERICA..Bush lost the popular election in 2000, he's the first and only president to be elected by the Supreme Court and who knows what happen in 2004, thanks in part to that Uncle Tom, boot-licking coon of lap dog Kenneth Blackwell..As far as flip-flopping goes..

[quote]"The U.S. is committed to the worldwide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the U.S. and the community of law abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating and prosecuting all acts of torture." - G.W. Bush, June 26, 2003[/quote]

C'mon brother, won't you leave the Blind Bush sheep and join up with the "knowers" :D , seriously though Bush is fucking a dumbass and a bold face liar

[url="http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/powabuse.html"]Link detailing toture[/url]

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BJ-
I was responding to Bengaljet's post previously...I should have clarified...I'm not touching the Gitmo issue with a 10-foot pole...Iraq I definetely know some things about----Guantanamo Bay is shrouded in secrecy---
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We have to look at it as good vs evil and we have to quit worrying about what the rest of the world thinks about us because it doesn't matter anyway!

[b]We feed the world but we are looked at as a tyrant, we medicate the world and we are looked at as a tyrant, we come to rescue whenever there is disaster but we are still looked at as a tyrant! Maybe if we play the tyrant part then when we do something good the ungratefulls will acknowledge and see us for what we really are, a caring and nurturing nation that has to be a tyrant at times to deal with the evils of the world![/b]

Some of our worst enemies are our own people :(

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Let's see. Compare what they do at Guantanemo to what Muslims do to captured combatants.

And:

Do Muslim captors give their prisoners bibles if they ask for them? No
Do US captors give their Muslim prisoners a Koran if they ask for it? Yes

Do Muslim captors give their prisoners special dietary foods if a Jew requested it? No
Do US captors give their Muslim prisoners food within Muslim dietary requirements?
Yes

Do Muslims allow their captors to practice their Christian faith? No
Do US captors allow their Muslim prisoners to practic their faith? Yes

Yes, there have been things the US has done that they should be ashamed of, but those that are violations get investigated and punished.

When a Muslim beheads a captured civilian (like reporter Nick Byrd (sp?)) they cut his head off for all the world to see.

All in all, I would say the US does a whole lot better by their prisoners than the Muslims do.

So don't give me any crap about how bad the US has been in Guantanemo.
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[quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 1 2005, 03:35 AM'][b]My responses are in Bold.....[/b]
[b]I love that you are a Bengal Fan BB and I appreciate the opinions of everyone on the board here, but I have to point out these contradictions because not too would be against what I believe. ;)   [/b]

[color="blue"][b]as always I welcome the debate on these topics, especially in a boring offseason. [/b][/color]
[right][post="98163"][/post][/right][/quote]

Hey BJ u mention the geneva convention above..... U do realise that the geneva convention only qualifies for people who fight for a country under open arms and are considered soldiers. terrorists arnt because they never fight in terms of the normal military they wage phycological warfar and bombs against u...... So the geneva convention doesnt qualify for them. Another is. I Say fuck em. If they capture our soldiers they decapitate them. I didnt see any of our soldier getting breaks or talking to the press about being repressed. Shit jessica lynch was raped repeatedly. Terrorists should be treated like shit when they are in our prison system. They should not nessaryly be tortured. But they def shouldnt have a good time.....

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1) I spent some time at Gitmo in the 70s; it's a desolate and isolated place. It is also not technically US soil. That's why it was chosen as the location of a prison for illegal enemy combatants (I think that's the phrase.) Review the recent Supreme Court case re prisoner status to get both sides of the story.

2) [url="http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content?050214fa_fact6"]Extraordinary rendering[/url] anyone?

3) Some people think that bashing Bush, with reason, is positively pro-American :D

<edit--addition; edit again.>
4)"Shit jessica lynch was raped repeatedly." False. She MAY have been anally raped while she was unconscious; if so, heinous, but understand that anal rape in Arab culture is about humiliation. In any case, no reason to retaliate in places like Abu Graib.

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