oldschooler Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1294623603' post='960511'] Why did I wait till now? Unless your not paying attention I have been screaming about this vitriol for a while. I never said it didnt happen on both sides of the fence, I even pointed to the black panther types as an example. Did you not read that? I dont have issue with pointing our differences, my issue is the vitriol that has created an environment where folks come to political rallies carrying not just handguns but large firearms, where political candidates are ok with saying if we dont get what we want that we will forgo our political process and use 2nd amendment remedies. Say what you will about political rhetoric, some of this needs to be called to task. We cant just waive it off as first amendment rights. Then it became political when a political person was shot. [/quote] Jamie, you yourself are guilty of using vitriol in this very forum. And when I tried to call you to task over it, you acted like it was your duty or whatever. You are using this event as a rallying cry because the Sherrif made it an issue. That is disheartening to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1294624154' post='960518'] Jamie, you yourself are guilty of using vitriol in this very forum. And when I tried to call you to task over it, you acted like it was your duty or whatever. You are using this event as a rallying cry because the Sherrif made it an issue. That is disheartening to me. [/quote] Not once ever have I ever called for "2nd amendment remedies" on anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 What would be said had it been an illegal immigrant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1294633651' post='960544'] What would be said had it been an illegal immigrant? [/quote] Michael Moore - "If a Detroit Muslim put a map on the web w/crosshairs on 20 pols, then 1 of them got shot, where would he b sitting right now? Just asking." http://twitter.com/MMFlint/status/24015641061101568 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Disgusting. [quote]Westboro Baptist Church To Picket Funerals Of Arizona Shooting Victims Westboro Baptist Church, the Topeka church known for its inflammatory anti-gay protests, plans to picket the funerals of the six people gunned down in Arizona on Saturday. In a flier posted on its web site, the controversial church writes, "THANK GOD FOR THE SHOOTER -- 6 DEAD!" The message continues: God appointed this rod for your sins! God sent the shooter! This hateful nation unleashed violent veterans on the servants of God at WBC--hoping to silence our kind warning to obey God and flee the wrath to come. The flier claims that the shooting of both a House member and a federal judge -- the latter of whom was killed -- is god's punishment for judicial and Congressional action against the WBC. "God sent the shooter to shoot you! And He's sitting in Heaven laughing at you!" the announcement reads. In graphic language, it continues: Your federal judge is dead and your (fag-promoting, baby-killing, proud-sinner) Congresswoman fights for her life. God is avenging Himself on this rebellious house! WBC prays for your destruction--more shooters, more dead carcasses piling up, young, old, leader and commoner--all. Your doom is upon you! In December, Westboro Baptist Church picketed the funeral of Elizabeth Edwards. The group is known to display signs that say "God Hates Fags" and "Thank God For Dead Soldiers." [/quote] Click here if you want to see the flier in its entirety. http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/westboro-baptist-church-arizona-shooting.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 I would do that lady that got shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [url="http://twitter.com/FrankConniff/status/23879836149743616"]Frank Conniff's Twitter[/url] [quote]Hey, Sarah Palin, hows that hatey, killy, reloady, chrosshairsy thing working out for ya?[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Yup. this is all Sarah Palin's fault. ...and fucking Roosevelt! What was he thinking starting WW2! It's all his fault that Hitler was a fucking nut job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1294679906' post='960656'] Yup. this is all Sarah Palin's fault. ...and fucking Roosevelt! What was he thinking starting WW2! It's all his fault that Hitler was a fucking nut job! [/quote] Roosevelt started WW2? I'm pretty sure he just joined it. But you bring up an interesting point, if words didnt have power to motivate people would Hitler have just been a single nutjob? (and for the record I dont think Palin is at fault, I put the atmosphere created on a number of people in the media.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1294680311' post='960663'] Roosevelt started WW2? I'm pretty sure he just joined it. But you bring up an interesting point, if words didnt have power to motivate people would Hitler have just been a single nutjob? (and for the record I dont think Palin is at fault, I put the atmosphere created on a number of people in the media.) [/quote] No we all have to watch what we say... We may set off any nut job in the world.... The keyword now is shhhhhhh! What did Colbert say? "Keep Fear Alive?" Saying this in any way is Palin's or anyone else's fault is absolutely asinine. (Palin's website is being used as the prime example) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1294680393' post='960665'] No we all have to watch what we say... We may set off any nut job in the world.... The keyword now is shhhhhhh! [/quote] So then you dontn believe words have power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [b]Arizona Massacre Prompts Political 'Cheap Shots'[/b] By James Rosen Published January 10, 2011 | FoxNews.com Jan. 9, 2011: Well wishers gather outside University Medical center at a make-shift memorial in Tucson, Ariz.. U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., was shot in the head Saturday during a speech at a local supermarket. slideshow AP Jan. 9, 2011: Well wishers gather outside University Medical center at a make-shift memorial in Tucson, Ariz.. U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., was shot in the head Saturday during a speech at a local supermarket. When Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords collapsed outside the Safeway in Tucson Saturday morning, felled by a hail of bullets that killed six and wounded another 13 innocent people that had come to see her, some were quick to claim that the carnage was the product not merely of the tortured mind and trigger-happy fingers of the alleged shooter, 22-year-old Jared Lee Loughner. Rather, many on the American Left said the horror could be traced to the malign influence of American conservatives; members of the Tea Party; right-wing pundits Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck; former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin; and Fox News. That was the narrative of culpability spun in the immediate aftermath of the shootings by some leading liberal commentators and Democratic politicians -- despite warnings from religious leaders, lawyers, academics, ethicists, reporters and historians that such a rush to judgment only further deepens the partisan divide in America, and further poisons its discourse. Within minutes after the attempted assassination of Giffords -- indeed, at a point when it was still erroneously believed in many quarters that she was dead, and the identity of her shooter was not publicly known -- some commentators, absent any credible evidence, were already busily laying blame for the atrocity in political terms. Nobel Prize-winning economist and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman blogged at 3:22 p.m. ET Saturday: "We don't have proof yet that this was political, but the odds are that it was." Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, a Democrat, also found a political element in Saturday's bloodshed. Dupnik argued that the "vitriol" of the country's harshly polarized political climate was partly to blame, arguing that unbalanced individuals are uniquely "susceptible" to vitriol. Dupnik added, in an interview with Fox News' Megyn Kelly: "We see one party trying to block the attempts of another party to make this a better country." Asked by Kelly if he had any evidence Loughner was in any way influenced by political "vitriol," Dupnik offered none. "That's my opinion, period," he said. Krugman, in his blog post on the Times website, went on to mention Giffords' presence last year on Palin's "infamous crosshairs list." This was a map, disseminated by Palin's political action committee, SarahPAC, denoting the districts of 20 vulnerable House Democrats with images of crosshairs overlaid on each. The map was accompanied by a caption saying: IT'S TIME TO TAKE A STAND. Giffords herself, during her narrow campaign victory over a Tea Party-backed opponent last year, had complained about this choice of imagery, telling MSNBC: "The way that (Palin) has it depicted, the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district ...When people do that, they've gotta realize there are consequences to that action." [b] Unnoted by Giffords then, or Krugman now, is the routine use of similar language and imagery by both parties in a culture obsessed with "battleground" states. Indeed, a nearly identical map, included in a Democratic Leadership Committee publication in 2004, featured nine bullseyes over regions where Republican candidates were considered vulnerable that year, and was accompanied by a caption reading: TARGETING STRATEGY. A smaller caption, beneath the bullseyes, read: BEHIND ENEMY LINES. The map illustrated an article on campaign strategy by Will Marshall of the Progressive Policy Institute.[/b] [b]Krugman's blog post on Saturday linked "the rhetoric of Beck, Limbaugh, etc." to "the violence I fear we're going to see in the months and years ahead," and added: "Violent acts are what happen when you create a climate of hate." Yet in all of the grammatically hobbled writings and statements that Loughner posted on the Internet -- in which, ironically, one of his chief obsessions was others' poor grammar -- the failed student and awkward loner made not a single reference to talk-radio or the TV hosts Krugman cited, to the health care debate or the Tea Party, to Sarah Palin or Fox News.[/b] Still, Rep. Bill Pascrell, D-N.J., found conservative lawmakers and Fox News at fault. The eight-term lawmaker told the Bergen Record Saturday: "There's an aura of hate, and elected politicians feed it; certain people on Fox News feed it." Pascrell, for his part, has appeared as a guest on Fox News at least 159 times, dating from a January 2002 appearance on "The O’Reilly Factor" ("Honor to talk to you," Pascrell told host Bill O’Reilly, at the end of their segment) to an appearance last month on "Your World with Neil Cavuto" -- 38 days before the Tucson massacre. "The nation needs to be united right now," Pascrell told the hosts of "Fox & Friends" last Jan. 28, nearly a year before he blamed the network and GOP politicians for the attempted assassination of Giffords. "We don't do the nation any good by simply dividing amongst ourselves." Without mentioning Palin by name, Sen. Richard Durbin of Illinois, the number-two Democrat in the Senate, alluded on Sunday to the 2008 GOP vice presidential nominee in his discussion of the causes of the violence the day before. Durbin invoked "don't retreat, reload," a phrase from a well publicized Twitter message once sent by Palin, as the kind of "violent" sentiment that can provoke incidents like Saturday's. "These sorts of things, I think, invite the kind of toxic rhetoric that can lead unstable people to believe this is an acceptable response," Durbin said on CNN’s "State on the Union" program. Some prominent commentators objected to these comments. "To try to place blame before an investigation has occurred is in itself inciting hatred," countered Christian missionary Franklin Graham. Reached by Fox News minutes after returning to the United States from Haiti, where he had hosted Palin on a humanitarian mission last month, Graham offered prayers for the wounded and dead, and cautioned against ascribing a political motivation or origin to the violence. "Because we may disagree with a person from another political party, and something bad happens to that person, does that mean that we are responsible for what happens to that person? By no means. But If somebody calls for someone to go out and shoot someone in the head, then that person is just as responsible as the person who pulled the trigger." Historian Douglas Brinkley agreed. "We've got to be careful here that we don't use this as a censoring moment, or use this as a Democrats-beating-up-on-Republicans (moment), or using it as an opportunity to humiliate anybody who's affiliated with the Tea Party movement," Brinkley said. The author of numerous acclaimed biographies, Brinkley has edited the collected papers of the late Gonzo journalist Hunter S. Thompson, and won the 2007 Robert F. Kennedy Book Award for "The Great Deluge: Hurricane Katrina, New Orleans, and the Mississippi Gulf Coast." "There are definitely times when you have fallout from politics," Brinkley told Fox News in an interview from Austin, Texas, "but we don't want to lose the central point here: that this is a deranged person, that there's nobody serious in the Republican Party that would want to see such a heinous event happen at a Safeway. So we've got to be careful not to be braggadocio, not to use this, if you're a Democrat, as a weapon." Reporter Pete Williams, who covers legal affairs and the Supreme Court for NBC News, steered his viewers away from a political explanation for the violent attack on a political figure. "The initial picture we're getting is that this is not what you would call, in the traditional sense, a politically motivated act," Williams said. "This seems to be the actions of a very disturbed individual." That call was widely heard on Fox News. "I don't know whether he's insane or not, but I do know that we need a reasonable discussion of what was going on with this man," said Peter Johnson, Jr., a Fox News legal analyst. "(Loughner's Internet) statements, taken together with the police conduct with regard to his known activities -- especially taken with the fact that he was rejected by the Army -- paints a disturbing picture of a mind that appears not to be intact. ... And we need to understand that the spinning wheel of recrimination at this point should be based on the facts, and not based on some rhetorical determination." Juan Williams, the liberal Fox News analyst and historian of the civil rights movement, said Sheriff Dupnik "speaks for a lot of people" who would like to see the tenor of the American political debate dialed down a notch. "People realize that in the era of Obama, a lot of highly charged vilification of the president has been going on, particularly during the health-care debate," Williams said. "So people are alert for anything that could possibly be tied to the highly polarized political environment." At the same time, Williams recalled the "bump" in public opinion polls President Clinton received when, in the wake of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, he attacked right-wing radio hosts. Williams urged Democrats to refrain from adopting a similar tactic today. "Some on the left are taking cheap shots," Williams said, "to try to keep Republicans on the defensive. In all honesty, I don't see any direct connection between any Republican group and this shooter ... who is a psycho nut-job." Peter Wehner, a senior fellow at the Ethic and Public Policy Center in Washington, called the comments by Krugman, Durbin, and other liberals "sickening." "People were taking a terrible human tragedy and using it as a political club, and there wasn’t even a moratorium of 24 hours, or even 24 minutes," said Wehner. A veteran of several Republican White Houses and the co-author of "City of Man: Religion and Politics in a New Era," Wehner said it would have been "legitimate" if the Tucson massacre had provoked a dialogue about gun control, because conservatives often seize on terrorist incidents to frame national security debates. But he also saw a double standard at work. "When (former Rep. Alan) Grayson called his opponent 'Taliban Dan' (during Grayson's losing re-election campaign last year against GOP challenger Daniel Webster)," Wehner said, "I didn’t notice the left being concerned about an atmosphere of violence." Palin has issued a statement expressing her "sincere condolences" to those affected by Saturday’s shootings, but has not responded to suggestions that her statements, often studded with references to hunting and firearms, played some role in the Tucson massacre. Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/10/arizona-massacre-prompts-political-cheap-shots/#ixzz1Aed5os9T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1294680456' post='960666'] So then you dontn believe words have power? [/quote] I do. but A nut case is a nut case and if said nut case is going to kill said nut case will find a reason. He doesn't need Palin's website or motivation from anyone else... The premise of this argument is to make one side of the aisle look bad. Period. It is turning a tragedy in to political gain, and it is one of the most disgusting things I have seen in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 FoxNews really? Anyway unless this happened very quickly I actually blame the police department because apparently he had made threats before and the fact that he was there after making those threats and they didnt secure him and make him leave before he pulled the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1294680766' post='960671'] I do. but A nut case is a nut case and if said nut case is going to kill said nut case will find a reason. He doesn't need Palin's website or motivation from anyone else... The premise of this argument is to make one side of the aisle look bad. Period. It is turning a tragedy in to political gain, and it is one of the most disgusting things I have seen in a while. [/quote] I dont necessarily disagree that its one nut case. However what I am saying is that this stuff with threating this woman from more than one person has been going on for a while and not just threats but people actually escalating that to violence against her or her offices. That shouldnt be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1294680817' post='960673'] FoxNews really? Anyway unless this happened very quickly I actually blame the police department because apparently he had made threats before and the fact that he was there after making those threats and they didnt secure him and make him leave before he pulled the gun. [/quote] It is an AP story picked up by fox news... Sorry, that won't work this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1294680964' post='960674'] I dont necessarily disagree that its one nut case. However what I am saying is that this stuff with threating this woman from more than one person has been going on for a while and not just threats but people actually escalating that to violence against her or her offices. That shouldnt be ignored. [/quote] There is no evidence from anything he wrote or videos he posted that anything Palin or anyone else said had anything to do with the shooting... This is the worst kind of politics I have seen in a while.... It is despicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1294681952' post='960684'] There is no evidence from anything he wrote or videos he posted that anything Palin or anyone else said had anything to do with the shooting... This is the worst kind of politics I have seen in a while.... It is despicable. [/quote] I saw it reported on the news that he had been threatning in the past and police knew who he was before this. I dont think it wrong that these questions on our language and how much it contributes to the issues be asked whether thats palin or angle or krugman or olberman or anyone. In fact I wish we would be asking them way before this, before it became "political". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [url="http://mediamatters.org/research/200505180008"]Oops...[/url] [quote]BECK: Hang on, let me just tell you what I'm thinking. I'm thinking about killing Michael Moore, and I'm wondering if I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it. No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out -- is this wrong? I stopped wearing my What Would Jesus -- band -- Do, and I've lost all sense of right and wrong now. I used to be able to say, "Yeah, I'd kill Michael Moore," and then I'd see the little band: What Would Jesus Do? And then I'd realize, "Oh, you wouldn't kill Michael Moore. Or at least you wouldn't choke him to death." And you know, well, I'm not sure.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1294683015' post='960696'] [url="http://mediamatters.org/research/200505180008"]Oops...[/url] [/quote] I have thought the same thing... Especially after a lot of the stuff Moore has said or produced have been proven to be outright lies used as political propaganda....[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1294682971' post='960694'] I saw it reported on the news that he had been threatning in the past and police knew who he was before this. I dont think it wrong that these questions on our language and how much it contributes to the issues be asked whether thats palin or angle or krugman or olberman or anyone. In fact I wish we would be asking them way before this, before it became "political". [/quote] They are not questions... They are outright accusations... ...and if it is so important why is it only coming out now when democrats see a political gain out of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCP2YV6Jge0[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Via Counterpunch: [url="http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn01102011.html"]"How the Republicans' Chickens Came Home to Roost in Tucson"[/url] [quote]“Don’t retreat, reload” was one of Palin’s lines to her supporters when one of her Tea Party picks was whacked in the polling booth in November. Other Tea Party maenads had their own punchy lines. Michele Bachmann, a Republican rep from Minnesota, truly over the top and now locked up by nervous Republican leaders in the House Intelligence Committee, where by definition she has to keep her mouth shut, has been in the habit of saying, "I want citizens armed and dangerous.” Tea Partier Sharon Angle, who nearly defeated Senate Majority leader Harry Reid last November in Nevada, liked to invoke the possibility of "2nd Amendment remedies".Conservative Florida radio host Joyce Kaufman, designated staff director of a new elected Florida congressman, quit her job after two days in Washington when a video clip surfaced displaying her exclaiming at a political rally last July 4, "If ballots don't work, bullets will.” [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1294683484' post='960701'] They are not questions... They are outright accusations... ...and if it is so important why is it only coming out now when democrats see a political gain out of it? [/quote] I have been careful myself to not make accusations, but to frame it as questions, I think the sheriff did as well. If pols are taking that to far they should be admoished for it. Now as to why now, I dont know that it is only now. I'm thinking that there was a rally, and for my part this is exactly why I went, that was held not to long ago, the sad part is that it was done by comedians. Next, lets look at where we are at, I dont know that I have ever seen this in my life time, and Im not saying it has never happened, just not in my lifetime.... [img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3518/3837812241_9331868de0_o.jpg[/img] And while nothing bad happened, why was it even necessary other than to send a message? And what message are they sending? And are you comfortable with that? I'm not. I dont want to think we are even remotely at the point where we need to be thinking about doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 This is where the argument ends for me... You and I know this is being used for political gain. I am not getting caught up in semantics over it. It is best described in one word. Despicable. I will be remembering the names of the people who politicize it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1294690276' post='960756'] This is where the argument ends for me... You and I know this is being used for political gain. I am not getting caught up in semantics over it. It is best described in one word. Despicable. I will be remembering the names of the people who politicize it. [/quote] I dont doubt some are. However I also think the rhetoric needs to be addressed and has been a concern for some for a while and that just passing it off as a one time nut job may be true for this one time, but it also is still something we should be concerned about and not allow to stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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