Senate Bill 5 - Thoughts?

[Bengals1181]

[quote]Ohio could lose a significant portion of its $171 million in yearly federal transit money if state legislators adopt a proposal that would curtail collective bargaining powers for transit workers and other public employees.

Federal law forbids the Federal Transit Administration from dispensing money for transit operations, acquisitions or improvements without Department of Labor certification that the collective bargaining rights and working conditions of affected transit employees have not been diminished.[/quote]


http://www.daytondailynews.com/state-transit-funds-at-risk-in-bargaining-bill--800893.html

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='Orange 'n Black' timestamp='1298567429' post='972602']
This will be in contrast to what I posted in this thread earlier - but the more I read about this, the more unsure I feel.

On one hand, yes, the bill is going to hurt a lot of people financially who support our way of life. The reason they were chosen, I really don't know. But what you said here resonates with me; I read a piece in Time today about how those unions really function and the deals they cut. I wouldn't go so far as to call them thugs, but they certainly don't bargain in good faith.

The major sticking point in any union negotiation is that at some point, the union can take so much that the business just fails and everybody is shit out of luck (see Motors, General, had the federal government not stepped in). [b]Public unions, on the other hand, don't have to worry about that disaster scenario because the government is not going to allow the schools, police departments, fire departments, etc. to just shut down.[/b] Hell, if the UAW had known the fed was going to bail out GM and Chrysler, they probably would have pushed for $100 an hour!

This allows the unions to take concessions they rightfully shouldn't have. One of the biggest sticking points from the gov's point of view is that the unions will not accept merit-based pay increases. Isn't that how the entire private sector is supposed to function? Why should they be any different just because they're public employees? Merit-based pay and promotions can only make our education system better.
[/quote]


You could not be more wrong... If the local governments run short on money the fire and police get laid off....

In Ohio since 1983 2 to 3 percent of CBA negotiations have went to arbitration. In those cases, the arbitrator has sided with the government 50% and the unions 50%.

In my City, on two occasions we have found the city hiding money(over funding accounts) so they could "create a crisis" to cut police and fire.

My union two years ago paid for a consultant to look at the city's entire health care plan to see if any savings could be made to prevent layoffs. That company found 1.2 million(the city's overall budget is 27 million with a 3 to 3.5 million annual carry over) of savings that could be had with a few simple changes in our plan without the loss of benefits. So what does our mayor do? He goes to the media and says "Hey look at all this money we saved(not mentioning our union paid for the consultant) by hiring this company and making changes to the health care program. "I saved the jobs of police and fire.


If you think this is so cut and dry that unions over reach and take advantage then you are sadly mistaken. Good unions are part of the solution and not part of the problem.

The unions in Wisconsin gave Walker the concessions he wanted, but that is not enough. He wants to bust the unions..... "Don't ever let a good crisis go unused!"

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1298569372' post='972607']
http://www.daytondailynews.com/state-transit-funds-at-risk-in-bargaining-bill--800893.html
[/quote]


Which explains why they are turning down money for high speed rail.

This isnt about the budget or job, if you created more jobs by taking that money for rail you would have more revenue in taxes for your budget.

This is purely about busting the unions.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1298572455' post='972625']
Which explains why they are turning down money for high speed rail.

This isnt about the budget or job, if you created more jobs by taking that money for rail you would have more revenue in taxes for your budget.

This is purely about busting the unions.
[/quote]


Good. Bust them. Then charge their leaders with racketeering.

[Orange 'n Black]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1298570022' post='972610']
You could not be more wrong... If the local governments run short on money the fire and police get laid off....

In Ohio since 1983 2 to 3 percent of CBA negotiations have went to arbitration. In those cases, the arbitrator has sided with the government 50% and the unions 50%.

In my City, on two occasions we have found the city hiding money(over funding accounts) so they could "create a crisis" to cut police and fire.

My union two years ago paid for a consultant to look at the city's entire health care plan to see if any savings could be made to prevent layoffs. That company found 1.2 million(the city's overall budget is 27 million with a 3 to 3.5 million annual carry over) of savings that could be had with a few simple changes in our plan without the loss of benefits. So what does our mayor do? He goes to the media and says "Hey look at all this money we saved(not mentioning our union paid for the consultant) by hiring this company and making changes to the health care program. "I saved the jobs of police and fire.


If you think this is so cut and dry that unions over reach and take advantage then you are sadly mistaken. Good unions are part of the solution and not part of the problem.

The unions in Wisconsin gave Walker the concessions he wanted, but that is not enough. He wants to bust the unions..... "Don't ever let a good crisis go unused!"
[/quote]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2053510,00.html

Here is the Time article I referred to, and where I took that point from. And cut jobs the government may, but those services, especially schools, will never, ever disappear for good as a defunct company is apt to do. As the article states - some unions are more than willing to take layoffs.

It's not cut and dry, you are correct. But it's not correct to assume the Wisconsin unions are "good unions" just because of the perception reported by the media. Nobody wants to take the government's side when a big group of teachers, police, and firemen are on the other side.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='Orange 'n Black' timestamp='1298575911' post='972639']
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2053510,00.html

Here is the Time article I referred to, and where I took that point from. And cut jobs the government may, but those services, especially schools, will never, ever disappear for good as a defunct company is apt to do. As the article states - some unions are more than willing to take layoffs.

It's not cut and dry, you are correct. But it's not correct to assume the Wisconsin unions are "good unions" just because of the perception reported by the media. Nobody wants to take the government's side when a big group of teachers, police, and firemen are on the other side.
[/quote]

Why are the politicians that want the unions to take these cuts not willing to do the same? Scott Walker and John Kasich are technically public workers... why won't they take the health care that they want the unions to take? Why do they get a free ride?

One of the bigger issues I found out today is Kasich and the Ohio repubs are trying to get into our pensions so they can get their hands on the money WE put in to cover the state's debt and just put us on social security...

Ohio is trying to create unattainable rules for our pension program so that state can take it over....funny thing is our pension and health care do not cost the state a penny.. that is taken care of by income taxes and property taxes on the local level....

The state wants to take our solvent pension and use it like the federal government borrows from social security...

This is about union busting and taking money. Period.

BTW I contribute 10%(12% starting next year) to my pension and my city contributes 10%... Ohio does not contribute jack shit!

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='John~Galt' timestamp='1298574389' post='972632']
Good. Bust them. Then charge their leaders with racketeering.
[/quote]


Or we could go after wall street for theft and really address the issues at the heart of the problems we face.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1298578518' post='972647']
Or we could go after wall street for theft and really address the issues at the heart of the problems we face.
[/quote]

Don't forget fraud...

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1298578910' post='972650']
Don't forget fraud...
[/quote]


That too.

[Ben]

I would like to hear Beck,limbaugh, hannity, etc... opinion on the AFTRA union.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1298578518' post='972647']
Or we could go after wall street for theft and really address the issues at the heart of the problems we face.
[/quote]

Umm they have been. I hope they catch anyone that has committed a crime there and prosecute them to the fullest extent. Theft is theft no matter who perpetrates it.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='John~Galt' timestamp='1298663924' post='972920']
Umm they have been. I hope they catch anyone that has committed a crime there and prosecute them to the fullest extent. Theft is theft no matter who perpetrates it.
[/quote]


Where are the arrests?

[Homer_Rice]

C'mon. Call this what it is: soft Mussolini-style fascism. Of course, it's only "soft" while the fascists are in the ascendancy; wait till you weakling lefties really piss the oligarchy off, then you'll see the iron glove!

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1298674388' post='972972']
C'mon. Call this what it is: soft Mussolini-style fascism. Of course, it's only "soft" while the fascists are in the ascendancy; wait till you weakling lefties really piss the oligarchy off, then you'll see the iron glove!
[/quote]

You are late! I called Kasich "Moussolini" two pages ago!

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1298680241' post='972991']
You are late! I called Kasich "Moussolini" two pages ago!
[/quote]
Ah, good! Haven't been around much lately so I've missed some reading.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAQ0pyKW4S4[/media]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1298674388' post='972972']
C'mon. Call this what it is: soft Mussolini-style fascism. Of course, it's only "soft" while the fascists are in the ascendancy; wait till you weakling lefties really piss the oligarchy off, then you'll see the iron glove!
[/quote]


If you heard Walker's call with what he thought was a Kock bother it sounded very mussolini like.

[Jamie_B]

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/

[quote]
The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Employee Pensions

Pulitzer Prize winning tax reporter, David Cay Johnston, has written a brilliant piece for tax.com exposing the truth about who really pays for the pension and benefits for public employees in Wisconsin.

Gov. Scott Walker says he wants state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to “contribute more” to their pension and health insurance plans. Accepting Gov. Walker’ s assertions as fact, and failing to check, creates the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not. Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

Via tax.com

How can this be possible?

Simple. The pension plan is the direct result of deferred compensation- money that employees would have been paid as cash salary but choose, instead, to have placed in the state operated pension fund where the money can be professionally invested (at a lower cost of management) for the future.

Many of us are familiar with the concept of deferred compensation from reading about the latest multi-million dollar deal with some professional athlete. As a means of allowing their ball club to have enough money to operate, lowering their own tax obligations and for other benefits, ball players often defer payment of money they are to be paid to a later date. In the meantime, that money is invested for the ball player’s benefit and then paid over at the time and in the manner agreed to in the contract between the parties.

Does anyone believe that, in the case of the ball player, the deferred money belongs to the club owner rather than the ball player? Is the owner simply providing this money to the athlete as some sort of gift? Of course not. The money is salary to be paid to the ball player, deferred for receipt at a later date.

A review of the state’s collective bargaining agreements – many of which are available for review at the Wisconsin Office of State Employees web site - bears out that it is no different for state employees. The numbers are just lower.

Check out section 13 of the Wisconsin Association of State Prosecutors collective bargaining agreement – “For the duration of this Agreement, the Employer will contribute on behalf of the employee five percent (5%) of the employee’s earnings paid by the State. ”

Johnston goes on to point out that Governor Walker has gotten away with this false narrative because journalists have failed to look closely at how employee pension plans work and have simply accepted the Governor’s word for it. Because of this, those who wish the unions ill have been able to seize on that narrative to score points by running ads and spreading the word that state employees pay next to nothing for their pensions and that it is all a big taxpayer give-away.

If it is true that pension and benefit money is money that already belongs to state workers, you might ask why state employees would not just take the cash as direct compensation and do their own investing for their retirement through their own individual retirement plans.

Again, simple.

Mr. Johnston continues-

Expecting individuals to be experts at investing their retirement money in defined contribution plans — instead of pooling the money so professional investors can manage the money as is done in defined benefit plans — is not sound economics. The concept, at its most basic, is buying wholesale instead of retail. Wholesale is cheaper for the buyers. That is, it saves taxpayers money. The Wisconsin State Investment Board manages about $74.5 billion for an all-in cost of $224 million. That is a cost of about 30-cents per $100, which is good but not great. However it is far less than many defined contribution plans, where costs are often $1 or more per $100.”

If the Wisconsin governor and state legislature were to be honest, they would correctly frame this issue. They are not, in fact, asking state employees to make a larger contribution to their pension and benefits programs as that would not be possible- the employees are already paying 100% of the contributions.

What they are actually asking is that the employees take a pay cut.

That may or may not be an appropriate request depending on your point of view – but the argument that the taxpayers are providing state workers with some gift is as false as the argument that state workers are paid better than employees with comparable education and skills in private industry.

Maybe state workers need to take pay cut along with so many of their fellow Americans. But let’s, at the least, recognize this sacrifice for what it is rather than pretending they’ve been getting away with some sweet deal that now must be brought to an end.

UPDATE: Since this post was published earlier today, many commenters have made the point that, while it is true that it is state employees’ own money that funds the pension plan, when the pension plan comes up short it is up to the taxpayer to make up the difference.

There is some truth in this – but not as much as many seem to think. Because the pension plan is a defined benefit plan – requiring the state to pay the agreed benefit for however long the employee may live in retirement- if the employee lives longer than the actuarial plan anticipated, the taxpayer is on the hook for the pay-outs during the longer life.

But is this the fault of the state employees? The pension agreements are the result of collective bargaining. That means that the state has every opportunity to properly calculate the anticipated lifespan and then add on some margin for error. What’s more, the losses taken by the pension funds over the past few years can hardly be blamed on the employees.

Take a look at what Sue Urahn, an expert on the subject at the Pew Center on the States, has to say about this when describing the $1 trillion gap that existed between the $2.35 trillion states had set aside to pay for employees’ retirement benefits and the $3.35 trillion price tag of those promises.at the end of 2008-

To a significant degree, the $1 trillion reflects states’ own policy choices and lack of discipline:

• failing to make annual payments for pension systems at the levels recommended by their own actuaries;
• expanding benefits and offering cost-of-living increases without fully considering their long-term price tag or determining how to pay for them; and
• providing retiree health care without adequately funding it
Via Pew Center on the States

That is the point. While the governor of Wisconsin is busy trying to shift the blame to the workers in an effort to put an end to collective bargaining, the reality is that it was the state who punted on this – not the employees.

Further, by the state employee unions agreeing to the deal proposed by Walker on their benefits (as they have despite Walker’s refusal to accept it) they are taking on much - and possibly all – of the obligation out of their own pockets.

As a result, the taxpayers do not contribute to the public employee pension programs so much as serve as insurers. If their elected officials have been sloppy , the taxpayers must stand behind it. But if the market continues to perform as it has been performing this past year, don’t be surprised if the funding crisis begins to recede. If it does, what will you say then?[/quote]

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1298688981' post='973014']
http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/
[/quote]

Since I have been a firefighter(1999) politicians(usually republican) have been trying to get their grubby fingers into PERS. They want to use it as a slush fund like the federal govt. has used social security at times.....

The first politician to push this that I remember was Trent Lott......but I am sure there have been many before.

I know right now in Ohio Kasich, as a run up to the Ohio Union Bust, has pushed to enact new regulations in our PERS to try and force us to fail or fight so he can get the state to take it over and drop us in social security.

The OAPFF agreed last year to have every firefighter take his contribution from 10% to 12%. They also agreed to have everyone's pension figured on their highest 5 years up from 3 years. On top of that they raised the earliest retirement age to 25 years and 52 years old.

52 does not sounds high, but firefighting is not an old man's game. I know in the early 90's a firefighters average life expectancy after retirement was 8 years. I am sure it has gone up since then, but not by a lot due to exposure from harmful chemicals in a fire.

[Homer_Rice]

Meanwhile...in D.C.

[url="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/2chambers/2011/02/mayors_gather_in_washington_th.html"]Mayors criticize House budget cuts as 'hypocritical' and 'un-American'[/url]

[Ben]

A Teabagger, Union Member and a CEO are sitting at a table with a dozen cookies. The CEO immediately takes 11 cookies for himself. The CEO then turns to the teabagger and says, "Watch out for that union guy he wants part of your cookie."

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Ben' timestamp='1298906403' post='973490']
A Teabagger, Union Member and a CEO are sitting at a table with a dozen cookies. The CEO immediately takes 11 cookies for himself. The CEO then turns to the teabagger and says, "Watch out for that union guy he wants part of your cookie."
[/quote]

Awesome...

[Jim Finklestein]

[quote name='Ben' timestamp='1298906403' post='973490']
A Teabagger, Union Member and a CEO are sitting at a table with a dozen cookies. The CEO immediately takes 11 cookies for himself. The CEO then turns to the teabagger and says, "Watch out for that union guy he wants part of your cookie."
[/quote]


Outstanding. I must admit I stole this and used it as my Facebook Status

[Jamie_B]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGODbEjIuf0[/media]

[Bengals1181]

Senate Bill 5 passed today after the GOP Leader replaced a committee member who said he'd vote no with one who would vote yes. [b] 30 minutes before the vote. [/b]

It was the deciding committee vote to send the bill to full senate.


full senate was a 17-16 vote.



Who said politicians aren't corrupt?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1299111229' post='974537']
Senate Bill 5 passed today after the GOP Leader replaced a committee member who said he'd vote no with one who would vote yes. [color="#FF0000"][b] 30 minutes before the vote. [/b][/color]

It was the deciding committee vote to send the bill to full senate.


full senate was a 17-16 vote.



Who said politicians aren't corrupt?
[/quote]


and people said the healthcare bill was jammed down their throats.