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Homosexuality being genetic.


Guest steggyD

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It's never cut and dry and it's never black and white. And for ANYONE to say that a gay person was "FOR SURE" not born that way is an ignorant and intolerant position. Sexual hormones are abnormal in almost 1/1000 births. Why is it "surely not possible" that those hormones are driving the persons basic instincts as to who they are attracted to?

Not all gays are sissies just like not all hetero men are strong and athletic. But I can tell you that women who have lots of facial hair, square bodies, no boobs, etc...I believe they have way too much testosterone. I also believe that their natural instincts could be driven by that and therefore cause them to naturally be attracted to other women.

Many people, both lesbians gay men, HATE who they are. TRY to change it. Commit suicide because they cannot force themselves to act and live hetero. If it were simply a choice, I don't believe this would be as big a problem. And the number of gays is probably not rising as it seems. The number of people admitting to being gay is increasing.

Whatever the cause of gayness, I hold those people to the same standards of common decency as anyone else. Keep your sex life to yourself, be kind and caring to others, do your part to contribute to society and follow laws... If they are a caring couple, then I've got more important things to worry about...like theives, child abusers, terrorists, educational issues, economic and environmental issues (all issues that affect me personally and my family)

Judge not lest thee be judged. If they are going to rot in hell, then let God take care of it. It's not our job. I'm sure God is powerful enough to do his own dirtywork.
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Guest bengalrick

how is it reality vs republicans, when go is agreeing w/ the... republicans... minus Backer... if he'll call himself that?

i think backer is right... go is a closet conservative... he just don't know it yet :D

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[quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jun 7 2005, 10:12 AM'][b]It's never cut and dry and it's never black and white.  And for ANYONE to say that a gay person was "FOR SURE" not born that way is an ignorant and intolerant position.[/b]  Sexual  hormones are abnormal in almost 1/1000 births.  Why is it "surely not possible" that those hormones are driving the persons basic instincts as to who they are attracted to?

Not all gays are sissies just like not all hetero men are strong and athletic.  But I can tell you that women who have lots of facial hair, square bodies, no boobs, etc...I believe they have way too much testosterone.  I also believe that their natural instincts could be driven by that and therefore cause them to naturally be attracted to other women.  

Many people, both lesbians gay men, HATE who they are.  TRY to change it.  Commit suicide because they cannot force themselves to act and live hetero.  If it were simply a choice, I don't believe this would be as big a problem.  And the number of gays is probably not rising as it seems.  The number of people admitting to being gay is increasing. 

Whatever the cause of gayness, I hold those people to the same standards of common decency as anyone else.  Keep your sex life to yourself, be kind and caring to others, do your part to contribute to society and follow laws...  If they are a caring couple, then I've got more important things to worry about...like theives, child abusers, terrorists, educational issues, economic and environmental issues (all issues that affect me personally and my family)

Judge not lest thee be judged.  If they are going to rot in hell, then let God take care of it. It's not our job.  I'm sure God is powerful enough to do his own dirtywork.
[right][post="100211"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

How is it intollerant? And what is your definition of tollerant? (that is an important question) And wouldn't it be equally "intollerant" for anyone to say "for sure" that they ARE born gay since you, yourself said it is not cut and dry?

And how is it ignorant? There are as many studies, if not more, that support the "nurture" theory as there are "nature". And for you to call someone ignorant because they have a different point of view on an issue that has not been proven as fact is pretty intollerant, don't you think?
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Guest bengalrick
i feel like if you are brought up, being raised by your mother and no father figure, your MORE likely to be gay (if you are a male)... maybe there is some genetics to it too, but i feel that the enviroment plays a bigger role... of course its not clear cut, black and white... there are many issue that go into it...

heres a question, almost every girl i've been w/ or have been close enough to them to tell me their inside secrets, they have been w/ another girl... maybe i've nieve but i don't know any men, that weren't gay, that experimented like that w/ other men...

my question is, if it were more acceptable for men to be gay, would there be more gay men? imo, i think so... which leads me to think that enviroment plays a bigger role than genetics...
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I didn't say a person was ignorant, I said it was an ignorant position. There is a difference. And I'm not saying that for some it isn't a choice. I'm saying that because I believe there is a very good chance that many gays are born that way that I'm not gonna ridicule the whole lot of em.

You should do more homework also. Thousands of men (in hetero marriages) who still consider themselves hetero, have secret sex with other men, yet feel no desire to "be" with a man as a partner. I personally don't have any girlfriends that I know have been with girls, but I do know it happens a lot.

Btw..there are also studies that show that the % of gay and lesbian people does NOT increase or decrease based on the living arrangement of parents (meaning gay parents, just a mother, or just a father)

And by tolerant, I mean it's not my place to judge these people. Religion may say it's wrong, but religion is not and should not be the sole lawmaker on this subject as we have separation of church and state. Like I said, let God take care of it. They are not murderers, etc. And if they are, prosecute them just like any hetero murderers. But making blanket statements and judgements on the group as a whole is not fair.
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And I hope you aren't referring to ME when you say making fun of over half the board. Cuz I ain't. I may be DISAGREEING with a good number, but that isn't making fun of. If something I say strikes a chord, that's your issue, not mine.

And all I've stated is that God said not to judge. So unless you think he's incapable of handlin his bidness, we don't need to step in and help.
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Guest bengalrick
[quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jun 7 2005, 10:11 AM']I didn't say a person was ignorant, I said it was an ignorant position.  There is a difference.  And I'm not saying that for some it isn't a choice.  I'm saying that because I believe there is a very good chance that many gays are born that way that I'm not gonna ridicule the whole lot of em. 

You should do more homework also.  Thousands of men (in hetero marriages) who still consider themselves hetero, have secret sex with other men, yet feel no desire to "be" with a man as a partner.  I personally don't have any girlfriends that I know have been with girls, but I do know it happens a lot. 

Btw..there are also studies that show that the % of gay and lesbian people does NOT increase or decrease based on the living arrangement of parents (meaning gay parents, just a mother, or just a father)

And by tolerant, I mean it's not my place to judge these people.  Religion may say it's wrong, but religion is not and should not be the sole lawmaker on this subject as we have separation of church and state.  Like I said, let God take care of it.  They are not murderers, etc.  And if they are, prosecute them just like any hetero murderers. But making blanket statements and judgements on the group as a whole is not fair.
[right][post="100224"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

i have came a long way as far as tolenance goes... its easy for someone that isn't exposed to it alot, to say that "i think is sick, and wrong" and turn that into something that is non tolerent... after growing up some, i can accept it and deal w/ it... if i don't have to personally see it, i could care less now... one of my bosses is gay, and i don't care.. he is a very cool dude and i he is probably my best friend here... imo, its one thing to be intolerant but uneducated and another thing to be around gays and still be intolerant... ignorance is a hard thing to come over, if your not exposed to it...
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I would agree with your statement on ignorance.

I know at least two lesbian couples with children. The children are all boys. They are athletic, well mannered, hetero children with girlfriends, good grades, sports, etc. The parents are loving, hard working members of society. They are a great family. And I'll be damned if I criticize them or say they shouldn't be allowed to have those kids when I see more love in that family than I see in many hetero dysfunctional families.

It's easy to hate when you have no experience.
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[quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jun 7 2005, 11:11 AM']I didn't say a person was ignorant, I said it was an ignorant position.  There is a difference.  And I'm not saying that for some it isn't a choice.  I'm saying that because I believe there is a very good chance that many gays are born that way that I'm not gonna ridicule the whole lot of em. 

You should do more homework also.  Thousands of men (in hetero marriages) who still consider themselves hetero, have secret sex with other men, yet feel no desire to "be" with a man as a partner.  I personally don't have any girlfriends that I know have been with girls, but I do know it happens a lot. 

Btw..there are also studies that show that the % of gay and lesbian people does NOT increase or decrease based on the living arrangement of parents (meaning gay parents, just a mother, or just a father)

And by tolerant, I mean it's not my place to judge these people.  Religion may say it's wrong, but religion is not and should not be the sole lawmaker on this subject as we have separation of church and state.  Like I said, let God take care of it.  They are not murderers, etc.  And if they are, prosecute them just like any hetero murderers. But making blanket statements and judgements on the group as a whole is not fair.
[right][post="100224"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Ok then, how is it an ignorant position when there are studies that support nurture, and nothing is proven one way or the other? How is the position intollerant? I have cast no judgement on anyone's sexuality. I don't agree with it personally, but that doesn't mean I hate gay people. I have a number of gay friends. Is it intollerant to recognize a difference, and disagree with that difference if you don't treat the person any different than you do anyone else?

I am aware of those men (and women). Not that I know any personally, but I am familiar with what you are talking about.
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It's an ignorant position to say it can't be "by birth" when there is evidence to support it very well could be. It would also be ignorant for me to say it CAN'T be by nurture. I'm saying it could be both and therefore we have to act as if it could be either. And I don't believe I called you out specifically for hating either.

I say it's hate coming from those who damn these people to hell and treat them with disrespect and abhorence.

And of course there is a difference...but hair color is also a difference. If there is a possibility that people are born this way, then how can we (without knowing for sure) say that they are evil, or wrong, or whatever? Not saying that YOU said that, just that many opponents of gay marriage, etc, are very hateful towards these people without opening their minds to really explore the subject. This is not a black and white issue.
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[quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jun 7 2005, 12:26 PM']It's an ignorant position to say it can't be "by birth" when there is evidence to support it very well could be.  It would also be ignorant for me to say it CAN'T be by nurture.  I'm saying it could be both and therefore we have to act as if it could be either.  And I don't believe I called you out specifically for hating either.

I say it's hate coming from those who damn these people to hell and treat them with disrespect and abhorence.

And of course there is a difference...but hair color is also a difference. If there is a possibility that people are born this way, then how can we (without knowing for sure) say that they are evil, or wrong, or whatever?  Not saying that YOU said that, just that many opponents of gay marriage, etc, are very hateful towards these people without opening their minds to really explore the subject.  This is not a black and white issue.
[right][post="100246"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

But it's not ignorant, it's just a different point of view. Now it would be ignorant to say the world is flat, because there is hard and fast evidence against that.
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Guest bengalrick
i am against gay marriage, but not civil unions... i agree that gay people deserve the tax and medicial benefits of married people, but i don't want marriage to be watered down and taken advantage of to.. that is my take....
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It is ignorant to say things are for sure one way or the other without doing some homework and without being open to discussion. I believe someone was more than ridiculed for saying the world was flat. Without evidence to prove it was flat, it was ignorant to deny the possibility that it wasn't. Obviously today we know it's round.

I'm not saying I have any answers. Just that I won't discount the possibility of an answer just because it doesn't fit with my moral compass.
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[quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jun 7 2005, 12:39 PM']It is ignorant to say things are for sure one way or the other without doing some homework and without being open to discussion.  I believe someone was more than ridiculed for saying the world was flat.  Without evidence to prove it was flat, it was ignorant to deny the possibility that it wasn't.  Obviously today we know it's round. 

I'm not saying I have any answers.  Just that I won't discount the possibility of an answer just because it doesn't fit with  my moral compass.
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I hope you don't take this as attack. It has been a while since I have been able to debate without someone breaking into name calling.

Until there is PROOF one way or the other, neither position is ignorant, they are just different. Until someone does a twin study where both twins are straight or gay 100% of the time, you won't be able to proove it is genetic. I have yet to see this study. Is it possible? I suppose, but I don't think it is. That does not make me ignorant.

But at least I seem to have changed your mind on whether the "position" is intollerant.

And even if I believe that it is nurture rather than nature, that is not a "moral" decision. I could believe that, and believe that it is still ok.
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[quote name='Jason' date='Jun 7 2005, 11:46 AM']I hope you don't take this as attack.  It has been a while since I have been able to debate without someone breaking into name calling.

Until there is PROOF one way or the other, neither position is ignorant, they are just different.  Until someone does a twin study where both twins are straight or gay 100% of the time, you won't be able to proove it is genetic.  I have yet to see this study.  Is it possible?  I suppose, but I don't think it is.  That does not make me ignorant.

But at least I seem to have changed your mind on whether the "position" is intollerant.

And even if I believe that it is nurture rather than nature, that is not a "moral" decision.  I could believe that, and believe that it is still ok.
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Well, you didn't change my mind, we just finally got on the same page as to what we were discussing. I still contend it's ignorant to [i]refuse to accept the possibility[/i] of the other side of an argument. Especially if you don't look into it.

The reason I used moral in my sentence was that people will say that being gay is evil and wrong and they will make that judgement based on their moral/religious beliefs (note I show those are two different things). They will not only deny the possibility of these people being that way naturally, but they will go further to refuse to listen to an argument or look at any evidence that MIGHT prove them wrong. They don't want to hear it.

I don't think ALL opponents of gay marriage oppose it for religious reasons. I am not trying to paint everyone with the same brush. That just happens to be the most vocal group.

I have done quite a bit of reading on this topic and I believe what I do based on that and my personal experiences. I am also constantly looking for more information. But my stance is this. I will NOT restrict access to certain rights from any group of people until there is 100% proof that that is necessary. If the majority of peeps don't want gay marriage, fine. I disagree, but fine. But I will not support a change in the constitution banning that right because I think in the future, there is the possibility that the majority will feel differently. We have to be VERY careful when changes are made to RESTRICT rights.
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[quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jun 7 2005, 01:03 PM'][b]Well, you didn't change my mind,[/b] we just finally got on the same page as to what we were discussing.  I still contend it's ignorant to [i]refuse to accept the possibility[/i] of the other side of an argument.  Especially if you don't look into it.

The reason I used moral in my sentence was that people will say that being gay is evil and wrong and they will make that judgement based on their moral/religious beliefs (note I show those are two different things).   They will not only deny the possibility of these people being that way naturally, but they will go further to refuse to listen to an argument or look at any evidence that MIGHT prove them wrong.  They don't want to hear it.

I don't think ALL opponents of gay marriage oppose it for religious reasons.  I am not trying to paint everyone with the same brush.  That just happens to be the most vocal group.

I have done quite a bit of reading on this topic and I believe what I do based on that and my personal experiences.  I am also constantly looking for more information.  But my stance is this.  I will NOT restrict access to certain rights from any group of people until there is 100% proof that that is necessary.   If the majority of peeps don't want gay marriage, fine.  I disagree, but fine.  But I will not support a change in the constitution banning that right because I think in the future, there is the possibility that the majority will feel differently.  We have to be VERY careful when changes are made to RESTRICT rights.
[right][post="100270"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

So you still think the position that gay is nurture and not nature is [b]intollerant[/b]? Why?

Do you think it is ignorant to believe in God? To be convinced of it? Because there are some who would be able to argue that there can't be a God. It is not ignorant to believe one side or other of a debate. It just means you have convictions and beliefs. I don't think that is ignorant at all.
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I don't think it's intolerant. I think refusing to accept the posibility of nature is ignorant.

My tolerance comment was relating to the opinion that these people deserve to be treated as human beings who deserve the same right all humans deserve. Tolerance is not related to the opinion of right and wrong. Tolerance is an action.

A person can be ignorant and tolerant at the same time ;)

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[quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jun 7 2005, 01:20 PM']I don't think it's intolerant.  I think refusing to accept the posibility of nature is ignorant.

My tolerance comment was relating to the opinion that these people deserve to be treated as human beings who deserve the same right all humans deserve.  Tolerance is not related to the opinion of right and wrong. Tolerance is an action. 

A person can be ignorant and tolerant at the same time  ;)
[right][post="100279"][/post][/right][/quote]

But you said in the initial post in this deabte:

[quote name='BengalSIS']It's never cut and dry and it's never black and white. And for ANYONE to say that a gay person was "FOR SURE" not born that way is an ignorant and [b]intolerant position[/b].[/quote]

So you changed your mind.

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Guest steggyD
I don't get this either Bengalsis. I started this thread and I am not intolerant of homsexuals. There was never one word where I called them any names or said that they are going to hell. I only stated that I feel that they are that way because of environment. I have never been with a man in any sexual way, yet I have been to "gay" bars, gay tolerant clubs. I attend a university with probably 50% of the males being homosexual. I don't try to dodge them or beat them up in the hallways. I don't get how my view is intolerant. Please explain.

Other than that, I state that I feel that it is environmental. I have seen the studies that try to prove it to be genetic, and to be honest, I find them to be bullshit studies. And until I see some kind of proof that makes me see it another way, hell yeah, I'm going to ignore those studies.
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Ah, i see what you are talkin about now. Yeah, by that I meant, and I may have misused the word myself, that not opening your mind to other possibilities was being intolerant of others views. I see where things got mucked up in my argument. Here I was referring to intolerance to views, but I was referring before to intolerance towards gays.

Sorry bout that. I thought you were referring to my post a couple after that. That's why it's hard to argue stuff while doing a spreadsheet document compare at work. :D

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[quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jun 7 2005, 01:20 PM']I don't think it's intolerant.  I think refusing to accept the posibility of nature is ignorant.

My tolerance comment was relating to the opinion that these people deserve to be treated as human beings who deserve the same right all humans deserve.  Tolerance is not related to the opinion of right and wrong. Tolerance is an action. 

A person can be ignorant and tolerant at the same time  ;)
[right][post="100279"][/post][/right][/quote]

Do you think it is ignorant to believe in God? To be convinced of it? Because there are some who would be able to argue that there can't be a God. It is not ignorant to believe one side or other of a debate. It just means you have convictions and beliefs. I don't think that is ignorant at all. Unless one position has 100% incontrovertable proof. And I don't think that will ever happen.

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Guest steggyD
That's how I feel about religion, Jason. I am in no way religious, yet I try to be spiritual. But I try not to put down religious people or non-religious people, because neither side has 100% proof. I, myself, like to think that there is a higher power, some sort of spiritual force, just from my meditations alone. But that is off-topic somewhat now.
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I think it is intolerant if people say they don't care what others do in their own bedroom, but then are deciding what goes on in other's private life. Frankly speaking...who gives a shit if 2 gay people get married? How does that affect you? I can get married 15 times if I want to.....Young, hot women can marry old rich men for money.....I can get married by Elvis in Vegas wearing a StarTrek uniform.....or I can live with the same person out of wedlock for my entire life and raise a happy family. They don't have to get married in a church (in order to retain the sanctity of marriage). The point is what I do, not how I do it is what should matter. If gay couples provide a loving home for children or just for themselves who cares. The whole "I support civil unions, but not gay marriage" is a cop-out used by politicians who either want to appear more liberal than they are or some who don't want to appear too liberal. Institutionalizing discrimination via a constitutional amendment is appalling.
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[quote name='steggyD' date='Jun 7 2005, 12:27 PM']I don't get this either Bengalsis. I started this thread and I am not intolerant of homsexuals. There was never one word where I called them any names or said that they are going to hell. I only stated that I feel that they are that way because of environment. I have never been with a man in any sexual way, yet I have been to "gay" bars, gay tolerant clubs. I attend a university with probably 50% of the males being homosexual. I don't try to dodge them or beat them up in the hallways. I don't get how my view is intolerant. Please explain.

Other than that, I state that I feel that it is environmental. I have seen the studies that try to prove it to be genetic, and to be honest, I find them to be bullshit studies. And until I see some kind of proof that makes me see it another way, hell yeah, I'm going to ignore those studies.
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You aren't looking very hard at more studies. And at real life stories of people who were brought up one way their entire lives and still ended up gay. You can find many books like the one I suggested that explain how nature and nurture play roles in development. And just as many studies that "prove" nature are bullshit studies. Many studies are by groups that try to prove what they want. By rigging the scenarios they get the results they want. That's why I rely more on the real life scenarios that have been recorded that detail what happened with people without interested poeple butting their big fat noses in.
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