BengalSIS Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='Jason' date='Jun 7 2005, 12:32 PM']Do you think it is ignorant to believe in God? To be convinced of it? Because there are some who would be able to argue that there can't be a God. It is not ignorant to believe one side or other of a debate. It just means you have convictions and beliefs. I don't think that is ignorant at all. Unless one position has 100% incontrovertable proof. And I don't think that will ever happen. [right][post="100290"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] You aren't listening to me. I don't think it's ignorant to believe one way or the other. Otherwise we are ALL ignorant. I think it's ignorant to believe that everything is exactly as you believe and that there is no room for new evidence to change your view. I think all religions, people, etc have to be open to new evidence and accept that their beliefs may change. Denying the existence of the other possibilities is what I am referring to. Not that you believe your theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 lunch time...be back later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 To be honest, I think this is a completely unanswerable question. Psychologists and psychiatrists have been asking questions such as this for many, many years. There has never been a complete answer. Why does someone become a mass murderer? Were they born with a mass murderer gene? Did someone influence them that way? Well, most people aren't born to mass murderer parents, so they are not really subjected to such an environment. But that is not what I mean by environmental influence. Every time a peer calls a person a name, that person will react to the situation in some way, whether it be hold it inside, or call them a name back. Etc., etc. Every life situation is handled someway, and in the end, it makes up who you are. I believe there is some genetic influence, such as some people come from a family who may be more patient with dealing with issues, or from a family that reacts from their heart, become emotional. All of these things make up the person that you become. So, in the end, I suppose I believe in environmental development with a touch of genetic influence. I have twin daughters, not identical, but still, they are raised pretty much the same. They will be 9 yrs in August. One is red head, one is blonde. The blonde was born with a very patient attitude. The redhead was born, well, how redheads are. Very impatient, and quick reactions. They are raised somewhat the same, but not completely, since they have different attitudes, they are treated somewhat differently in different situations. And they each have their own reactions to how they are treated throughout life. Never mind, it sounds like I am studying the psychology of my own children. I've always loved psychology though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jun 7 2005, 01:39 PM']You aren't listening to me. I don't think it's ignorant to believe one way or the other. Otherwise we are ALL ignorant. I think it's ignorant to believe that everything is exactly as you believe and that there is no room for new evidence to change your view. I think all religions, people, etc have to be open to new evidence and accept that their beliefs may change. Denying the existence of the other possibilities is what I am referring to. Not that you believe your theory. [right][post="100298"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] Ok. I've never said I wouldn't change my mind if there is proof. But until it is proved, I will believe my position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='jza10304' date='Jun 7 2005, 12:34 PM']I think it is intolerant if people say they don't care what others do in their own bedroom, but then are deciding what goes on in other's private life. Frankly speaking...who gives a shit if 2 gay people get married? How does that affect you? I can get married 15 times if I want to.....Young, hot women can marry old rich men for money.....I can get married by Elvis in Vegas wearing a StarTrek uniform.....or I can live with the same person out of wedlock for my entire life and raise a happy family. They don't have to get married in a church (in order to retain the sanctity of marriage). The point is what I do, not how I do it is what should matter. If gay couples provide a loving home for children or just for themselves who cares. The whole "I support civil unions, but not gay marriage" is a cop-out used by politicians who either want to appear more liberal than they are or some who don't want to appear too liberal. Institutionalizing discrimination via a constitutional amendment is appalling. [right][post="100294"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] this is a two way street... first off (this isn't my reasoning) if you push something in someones face, they will fight back... when dudes were getting married (unconstitutionally) in massachusettes, guys in kentucky were like "what the fuck, when was that rule made?!?" you can't push it in our face, and say don't pay attention too... you have to realize that i DO THINK IT IS WRONG!! that is my opinion and many other peoples opinions in this country... does that make me inconsiterate... that is for you determine, but i can accept it... i can even handle seeing it if i had to... it would literally make me sick to my stomach to see, but i could handle it... but you always make this comparison to the "getting married by elvis" and like anything, there are many different types of people out there that really don't care about the sanctions of marriage... you can't blame me for them... they probably would agree w/ your point of view anyway 9 out of 10 times anyway... we just don't know.. but obviously, they don't look at marriage the same as i do... you may not agree, but the fact that i'm married means something to me... i don't think that two men or two woman is morally right, but if the majority of america agreed that i was wrong, i'd have to live w/ the democratic vote.. since i'm on the majority side though, i feel that its not right... i have decided that civil unions are the best comprimise, and if the gay rights people can't accept only that, then i hope that the "religious right" fights it until the end... this always sounds dumb, but living in america for over 20 years has taught me that stupid laws are made stupider over time... we(americans) tend to take everything to the extreme limits... the day that a guy marries his cat is going to be a dark day, and it would happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 Don't start the marrying animals argument...it's not only ridiculous, it's degrading to gays as you are equating two loving people as a person/animal relationship. They are completely different issues and one will not lead to the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='Jason' date='Jun 7 2005, 12:47 PM']Ok. I've never said I wouldn't change my mind if there is proof. But until it is proved, I will believe my position. [right][post="100305"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] And that is fine. I just hope lawmakers go a step further and seek out a little more info before just makin laws on their opinions if they don't know any facts. That's what I don't like. Opinions for opinions sake. Sure everyone has one, but before I do something that affects many other people, I better hope I can back mine up [edit: that doesn't mean I will still be right, but I will have at least done some due diligence in trying to find the right solution] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='bengalrick' date='Jun 7 2005, 01:00 PM']this is a two way street... first off (this isn't my reasoning) if you push something in someones face, they will fight back... when dudes were getting married (unconstitutionally) in massachusettes, guys in kentucky were like "what the fuck, when was that rule made?!?" you can't push it in our face, and say don't pay attention too... you have to realize that i DO THINK IT IS WRONG!! that is my opinion and many other peoples opinions in this country... does that make me inconsiterate... that is for you determine, but i can accept it... i can even handle seeing it if i had to... it would literally make me sick to my stomach to see, but i could handle it... but you always make this comparison to the "getting married by elvis" and like anything, there are many different types of people out there that really don't care about the sanctions of marriage... you can't blame me for them... they probably would agree w/ your point of view anyway 9 out of 10 times anyway... we just don't know.. but obviously, they don't look at marriage the same as i do... you may not agree, but the fact that i'm married means something to me... i don't think that two men or two woman is morally right, but if the majority of america agreed that i was wrong, i'd have to live w/ the democratic vote.. since i'm on the majority side though, i feel that its not right... i have decided that civil unions are the best comprimise, and if the gay rights people can't accept only that, then i hope that the "religious right" fights it until the end... this always sounds dumb, but living in america for over 20 years has taught me that stupid laws are made stupider over time... we(americans) tend to take everything to the extreme limits... the day that a guy marries his cat is going to be a dark day, and it would happen... [right][post="100312"][/post][/right][/quote] getting married in another state is not pushing into anyones face. That is the news and media. And it has NO bearing on the lives of those guys in kentucky. Hell, it improves their chances of getting a girl. That's two men off the market instead of one. And face fellas...those kentucky guys need all the help they can get. (I could really use a whistling smiley...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 It would be interesting if someone would do some real studies to show whether or not it is genetic. I think the only way it could be proved to be genetic would be a study of identical twins raised in different homes. But if it were genetic, it should be the case that if one identical twin is gay, the other one is 100% of the time. And if ever one identical twin is gay and the other is not, then it can't be genetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 I went searching the internet but did not find exactly what I was looking for. However, I found this book on Amazon.com. What I like is in the editorial review, this one phrase. I think it sums everything up perfectly. [quote]... our environment affects the way our genes express themselves....[/quote] I believe this describes who we become, even in sexual way, whether you become a slut or a prude, a heterosexual or a homosexual, a criminal or a saint, a scientist or a fast-food worker, on and on. Oh yeah, [url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060006781/104-0811901-9447146?v=glance"]link[/url]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jun 7 2005, 01:06 PM']Don't start the marrying animals argument...it's not only ridiculous, it's degrading to gays as you are equating two loving people as a person/animal relationship. They are completely different issues and one will not lead to the other. [right][post="100317"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] once you open the flood gates, and say that marriage is no longer only between a man and a woman, what would stop that type of group to start marring animals? i don't mean it as an insult to gay people, and i realize that they are two different beings... BUT, if you don't call marriage between a man and woman, then you open the door for all kinds of crap... those types of people are waiting for the rules to change... they have nothing to do w/ the gay people, but you can't say that this wouldn't happen... hopefully the common sense would kick in at the courts, but as far as i've seen, i don't know that there is any common sense in our courts... imo, it would happen if this all goes down... all laws are taken to the extremes, b/c we're human and we love to find our boundaries... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 one study of many on twins...I don't mean to say it's definite proof of anything...but only that it points to the existence of a genetic connection. [url="http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/twins.html"]http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/twins.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jun 7 2005, 01:13 PM']getting married in another state is not pushing into anyones face. That is the news and media. And it has NO bearing on the lives of those guys in kentucky. Hell, it improves their chances of getting a girl. That's two men off the market instead of one. And face fellas...those kentucky guys need all the help they can get. (I could really use a whistling smiley...) [right][post="100321"][/post][/right][/quote] i like the part about "easier to find a girl" but are you trying to tell me something about "all the help i can get" anyways, true i guess that its not in my state, but its in my country... though i didn't lose anyone on 9/11 close to me, it did affect me... even though it was thousands of miles away from me... maybe that isn't the best example, but if something happens to my country, it could happen at my state just the same... it just scared alot of people... hence the 17 or so states that banned same sex marriage (including kentucky)... it was partly the medias fault, but it really was/is happening... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jza10304 Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 I have a question to pose (which should probably be in another thread)...What if it was proven to be genetic? Hypothetically, would that change your stances on gay marriage or any other "gay" issues? What if you found out at a very young age that your son or daughter possesed this "gay gene"? What would you do? Would you like to hear people demeaning your child, calling them an abomination? denying rights to marriage (which personally would be great if there was a law that I couldn't get married, that way men and women could move past the whole commitment issue, it would be based on trust)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jun 7 2005, 02:31 PM']one study of many on twins...I don't mean to say it's definite proof of anything...but only that it points to the existence of a genetic connection. [url="http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/twins.html"]http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/twins.html[/url] [right][post="100335"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] That does not prove much to me at all. Identical twins will have the same genetic makeup, and more than likely the same environment, which means they will react the same way according to their genetics. Fraternal twins have a different genetic makeup and have a somewhat different environment. And of course, an adopted child will have a completely different environmental makeup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jun 7 2005, 02:31 PM']one study of many on twins...I don't mean to say it's definite proof of anything...but only that it points to the existence of a genetic connection. [url="http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/twins.html"]http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/twins.html[/url] [right][post="100335"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] 52% of boy twins and 48% of girl twins where one is gay, both are. It can't then be genetic because twins are genetically identical. It seems to me to be stronger proof that it is nurture. The study does not say, but I would assume that they were all raised in the same household. Therefore the environment for both was basically the same, and the genetics were exactly the same, but the correlation is not 100%. Seems to me like my position is more strongly supported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldschooler Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 I have a "butch" cousin. I have a friend that I grew up with that is homosexual. I know about 4 Lesbians (all of which have had heterosexual relationships that resulted in having childern). I am VERY tolerant. I am not ignorant ...I just don`t believe that people are "born" that way. I just don`t believe that people are born attracted to a certain hair color, body type or sex. It is something that is built over time...not installed... If you believe that people are born attracted to the same sex...then I guess some people can be born a pedophile ? I know a gay relationship is between consenting adults...but consenting means you CHOOSE to be with that person...it is a preference IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='jza10304' date='Jun 7 2005, 01:35 PM']I have a question to pose (which should probably be in another thread)...What if it was proven to be genetic? Hypothetically, would that change your stances on gay marriage or any other "gay" issues? What if you found out at a very young age that your son or daughter possesed this "gay gene"? What would you do? Would you like to hear people demeaning your child, calling them an abomination? denying rights to marriage (which personally would be great if there was a law that I couldn't get married, that way men and women could move past the whole commitment issue, it would be based on trust)? [right][post="100341"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] IF it were proved to be ONLY a genetic thing, then you would have to relook at the issue... but that hasn't nor will it happen... if my son decided he was gay, i would support him, but would that make me change my stance on gay marriage... NO... i don't call gay people an abomination now, but i can't stop the people that think that... the same as i can't stop people that hate americans b/c... we're americans... there are idiots everywhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='Jason' date='Jun 7 2005, 01:41 PM']52% of boy twins and 48% of girl twins where one is gay, both are. It can't then be genetic because twins are genetically identical. It seems to me to be stronger proof that it is nurture. The study does not say, but I would assume that they were all raised in the same household. Therefore the environment for both was basically the same, and the genetics were exactly the same, but the correlation is not 100%. Seems to me like my position is more strongly supported. [right][post="100348"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] Read up a little more on genetics. It's interesting (as I'm doing it now instead of working ). Even identical twins both with the same gene for a disease can have one develop it and one not. Genes are not always as "visible" in one twin as the other. Meaning both twins can have the "gay" gene, but it's visible in one but not the other. The fact both aren't gay doesn't prove anything. The fact that the % of brothers that were gay was much higher in identical twins than in fraternal or adoptive (even though they lived in same house with same parents) tells me that genetics did play in a role. Anyway, it is of no consequence. This discussion could go on for ages. I think BOTH factors play important roles in our development, but having any genetic connection is important for me. Because of the existence of that connection, I cannot accept the position that a person is CHOOSING that lifestyle just to choose it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='GoBengals' date='Jun 6 2005, 11:11 PM']well, i have a pregnant lady right here *points to wife on couch* and [b]when she gets "hormonal" or "being bitchy" as i call it, i say "how about you stop being rude as shit about itand go do something else" and she realises her being bitchy and nkocks it the hell off...[/b] this is a weak example, but people can control thier reactions to whatever they want, you dont have to be a total bitch for any reason at any time, the ol hormone thing is a cop-out, perhaps, they should "suck it up" and show some self control, just because you dont feel well or are in pain or what have you, doesnt mean you can be a shithead to anyone else. word. im pretty sure thats a cut and dry "choice"... agreed. *grumbles* its impossible to prove either way, and no one is going to switch sides here, the reality vs republican battles will never end. [right][post="100090"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] One of these days you are going to wake up from severe pain and your wife holding scissors and your dick. My wife is finally pregnant again and I'm not risking it. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/18.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='Jason' date='Jun 7 2005, 11:32 AM']But it's not ignorant, it's just a different point of view. Now it would be ignorant to say the world is flat, because there is hard and fast evidence against that. [right][post="100248"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] ig·no·rant Audio pronunciation of "ignorant" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gnr-nt) adj. 1. Lacking education or knowledge. 2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake. 3. Unaware or uninformed. Like she says, it's ignorant to act that way because we don't know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='sean' date='Jun 7 2005, 03:35 PM']ig·no·rant Audio pronunciation of "ignorant" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gnr-nt) adj. 1. Lacking education or knowledge. 2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake. 3. Unaware or uninformed. Like she says, it's ignorant to act that way because we don't know for sure. [right][post="100384"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] But the knowledge isn't there to lack. It's unproven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='steggyD' date='Jun 7 2005, 02:54 PM']But the knowledge isn't there to lack. It's unproven. [right][post="100395"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] knowl·edge Audio pronunciation of "knowledge" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nlj) n. 1. The state or fact of knowing. 2. Familiarity, awareness, or understanding gained through experience or study. 3. The sum or range of what has been perceived, discovered, or learned. 4. Learning; erudition: teachers of great knowledge. 5. Specific information about something. 6. Carnal knowledge. If we are lacking in knowledge we are lacking in the fact of knowing. We don't have understanding through study because nothing is proven yet. In other words our positions are ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaker Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 Nature vs nurture is arguing two sides of the same coin. Behavior is the result of genetics and environment. Genes code for protiens, which put the proximate mechanisms in place, which are in turn affected by environment. Environment can consist of everything from the hormones you were exposed to in the womb during development to the family structure you grew up in...and everything in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='Beaker' date='Jun 7 2005, 06:40 PM']Nature vs nurture is arguing two sides of the same coin. Behavior is the result of genetics and environment. Genes code for protiens, which put the proximate mechanisms in place, which are in turn affected by environment. Environment can consist of everything from the hormones you were exposed to in the womb during development to the family structure you grew up in...and everything in between. [right][post="100463"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] Exactly. This is how I was trying to change my initial stance. To quote again, [quote]... our environment affects the way our genes express themselves...[/quote] I agree with this Beaker fella twice in one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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