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Lucid

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[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1300373542' post='977543']
I'm still trying to figure out how Anthony Munoz signing a bomb is shameful. :shrug:

Do people actually think he'd do something like that without being asked? Clearly the troops asked him to do it.
[/quote]


Personally I never said it was shameful.. I said it was in poor taste, which is different IMO.. I don't condemn him for it.. In fact, I'm sure he didn't think about it beyond trying to show support for what the troops were doing..

I don't have to look down on somebody to rather they had not done something.

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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1300373855' post='977547']
It's not shameful. What he is doing is noble. He is there to support the troops.
He could easily sit in his millionaire dollar home and not be in harms way.
The guy that posted in that thread should have also been commended for
his son and his family's sacrfice. But no. An anti-war person wanted to shame.
And others here thought that was more worthy of rep and discussion.

I think that is what is a damned shame.
[/quote]

And this is thr crux of the argument for me... I posted an opinion... You thought it shameful and unpatriotic and proceeded to chide me for it.. To which I responded that I had actually served in a time of war, and told you to quit telling me how to feel about it.
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[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300373803' post='977546']
Grudging, half sarcastic apologies don;t really count.
[/quote]


Don't apply a tone to it. Don't apply anything to it at all, or even
limits when it is more than you were willing to do.

Matter of a fact. I was going to send you a PM and explain.
Instead I was called a coward on my profile, which I deleted
if that's OK with you. And I was called a coward in PM. Then
I was called out in a thread. You are lucky you got any apology
at all after all of that.


But really though I am sorry. I am sorry that you misunderstood
and took what I said as an attack on you. It wasn't. I only attacked
after I felt attacked.

I am sorry that I attacked. I tried to move on from the attacks after,
but was met with more attacks. Still doesn't make what I did right.
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[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300373934' post='977548']
Personally I never said it was shameful.. I said it was in poor taste, which is different IMO.. I don't condemn him for it.. In fact, I'm sure he didn't think about it beyond trying to show support for what the troops were doing..

I don't have to look down on somebody to rather they had not done something.
[/quote]


but how is it in bad taste if they asked him to do it?
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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1300373047' post='977537']
I am not partisan either. That is the thing that cracks me up about when I post in this forum.
I share views. They aren't attached to a party. They are my own.

I think what the Republican Governors are doing is deplorable. I hate Boehner.
I hate Dick Cheney. I think FOX News is retarded. And a host of other things
that I am sure would surprise you. You don't agree with the war. Great. That
doesn't mean I am from the other side and am evil. It means we have different views.
You all would be wise to learn how to deal with them without degrading those that
don't share you own view on a topic.


I already said all I have to say about Lucid. He is not a victim here. No matter how
much he tries to convince himself of it.
[/quote]

One of the problems here is that you don't read very carefully. I didn't claim you were evil, I suggested you stop supporting evil.

And of course another of the problems is that you can't control your temper. You can justify your actions any way you want, but I suggest that damn few people--especially those who are familiar with your track record--will buy your flimsy justifications.

And yes, in an important way, Lucid is the victim here. In fact, your mental antennae should have perked up when 3 (or was it 4?) vets all came to similar conclusions about the behavior of Munoz. I mean, after all, even you intimated that perhaps it was a bit of short-sightedness on his part. Given the fact that you have repeatedly demonstrated some appreciation for those who have spent a few years in the military, you ought not to have slammed Lucid the way you did.
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[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300374071' post='977550']
And this is thr crux of the argument for me... I posted an opinion... You thought it shameful and unpatriotic and proceeded to chide me for it.. To which I responded that I had actually served in a time of war, and told you to quit telling me how to feel about it.
[/quote]


No Lucid. I didn't chide anything. I said more negativity.
That was it. I didn't scold you. I didn't call you any name.
I stated that you were focused on the negative. Which was
an observation and a fact. That is all.
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1300374180' post='977554']
One of the problems here is that you don't read very carefully. I didn't claim you were evil, I suggested you stop supporting evil.

And of course another of the problems is that you can't control your temper. You can justify your actions any way you want, but I suggest that damn few people--especially those who are familiar with your track record--will buy your flimsy justifications.

And yes, in an important way, Lucid is the victim here. In fact, your mental antennae should have perked up when 3 (or was it 4?) vets all came to similar conclusions about the behavior of Munoz. I mean, after all, even you intimated that perhaps it was a bit of short-sightedness on his part. Given the fact that you have repeatedly demonstrated some appreciation for those who have spent a few years in the military, you ought not to have slammed Lucid the way you did.
[/quote]


This would mean more to me if you hadn't already made previous
feelings about me known. You know, uneducated, puddinghead,
beneath you and a host of other shit that I have read from your ID
about me. Any person with any kind of back bone would have
lost their temper if the same shit you said to me was being said
to them.

I just made a post regarding Lucid. I didn't slam him or anything
he said initally. Only after I was slammed did I. But like I said,
that didn't make how I responded right.
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[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1300374152' post='977553']
but how is it in bad taste if they asked him to do it?
[/quote]

As I stated before... I don't think it is in good taste to celebrate killing... I have actually been a witness to it.. It's ugly and lame.. I can understand when soldiers do it, the emotions there are so that one cannot fathom unless they have been there (hence my remark about appropriate perspectiuve in the previous thread).

I have my doubts that he was asked to do it... But if I was there, I would have offered to sign something personal of the soldiers... Hell I probably would have brought a huge bag of footballs and signed those (how about I sign this "bomb" instead?)... I know from experience the troops would LOVE to have a few around... Shit like that can be hard to come by in the front, and it helps to be able to play and take your mind off things.
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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1300374240' post='977556']
No Lucid. I didn't chide anything. I said more negativity.
That was it. I didn't scold you. I didn't call you any name.
I stated that you were focused on the negative. Which was
an observation and a fact. That is all.
[/quote]

Shit doesn't get more full of "negativity" than war. Besides, as I pointed out.. I served.. I don't need to be a cheerleader on a message board to know I support my fellow soldiers and pray for their safety.

(I am not calling you a cheerleader.. Just so you know, just describing the action).
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[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300374568' post='977558']
As I stated before... I don't think it is in good taste to celebrate killing... I have actually been a witness to it.. It's ugly and lame.. I can understand when soldiers do it, the emotions there are so that one cannot fathom unless they have been there (hence my remark about appropriate perspectiuve in the previous thread).

[b]I have my doubts that he was asked to do it...[/b] But if I was there, I would have offered to sign something personal of the soldiers... Hell I probably would have brought a huge bag of footballs and signed those (how about I sign this "bomb" instead?)... I know from experience the troops would LOVE to have a few around... Shit like that can be hard to come by in the front, and it helps to be able to play and take your mind off things.
[/quote]


I can't see him doing it if he wasn't. I'd be shocked if was even allowed near one without permission.
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[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300374741' post='977559']
Shit doesn't get more full of "negativity" than war. Besides, as I pointed out.. I served.. I don't need to be a cheerleader on a message board to know I support my fellow soldiers and pray for their safety.

(I am not calling you a cheerleader.. Just so you know, just describing the action).
[/quote]



What Munoz was doing was a positive thing though.
The guy saying his son was a positive thing though.

If those things would have been the topic, this thread
would have stayed in the Bengals forum.

Instead it evloved into a anti-war, anti-me, flame war.

And I was called a cheerleader in the other thread.
I let it go. I let shots Jamie and Homer both took at
me go. I let a lot of stuff go. But then I get told I always
have to have the last word and other shit. And I tried to
express my views civilally afterwards. That's why I went
off on you for drumming old shit up this morning
and attacking me again. Not justifying it. Just giving my reasons.
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[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1300374863' post='977562']
I can't see him doing it if he wasn't. I'd be shocked if was even allowed near one without permission.
[/quote]

There is a precedent of celebrities on USO tour of doing this..

Here is a quote from the article...
[quote]
After that we traveled to an area called "Ordinances and Bombs" -- where they make the bombs. We watched the crew assemble one a[b]nd got to sign that one, too[/b][/quote]

Now perhaps he was asked to sign it.. But there is nothing in the article stating that.. The first one he said he signed as they were loading it onto a plane.. The second he signed at the bomb factory.. The quote says it was something he "go to do". Which would imply desire..

Either way we don't know.. Like I said, I don't think it makes him a bad person.. I just would not have done it.
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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1300374567' post='977557']
This would mean more to me if you hadn't already made previous
feelings about me known. You know, uneducated, puddinghead,
beneath you and a host of other shit that I have read from your ID
about me. Any person with any kind of back bone would have
lost their temper if the same shit you said to me was being said
to them.

I just made a post regarding Lucid. I didn't slam him or anything
he said initally. Only after I was slammed did I. But like I said,
that didn't make how I responded right.
[/quote]
Well, on this war stuff you are a very dangerous person, imo. Guys with your views shouldn't be able to cheerlead this crap with impunity. Just as Munoz doesn't get a free pass simply because he played a game well. Hell, Munoz is even more fair game than you are because he played a significant role in Bush's reelection. ([url="http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/09/09/loc_loc1almunoz.html"]Ex-Bengal Muñoz to be Bush chairman[/url]) As far as I am concerned, he's more of a chickenhawk than you are. And while being a member of a USO delegation is a nice thing, others here will tell you it ain't the same thing as being asked to put your ass on the line.

We obviously disagree, and will continue to disagree, about when this nation ought to engage in warfare. That's fine. But if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Or at least trade punches like a man instead of threatening to ban me or deleting a thread because you and Lucid have a little dust-up.

You suggested that I called Munoz out because I am anti-war. That's partly true, I suppose. But my hackles went up because I'm a vet, too.
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1300375496' post='977567']
Well, on this war stuff you are a very dangerous person, imo. Guys with your views shouldn't be able to cheerlead this crap with impunity. Just as Munoz doesn't get a free pass simply because he played a game well. Hell, Munoz is even more fair game than you are because he played a significant role in Bush's reelection. ([url="http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/09/09/loc_loc1almunoz.html"]Ex-Bengal Muñoz to be Bush chairman[/url]) As far as I am concerned, he's more of a chickenhawk than you are. And while being a member of a USO delegation is a nice thing, others here will tell you it ain't the same thing as being asked to put your ass on the line.

We obviously disagree, and will continue to disagree, about when this nation ought to engage in warfare. That's fine. But if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Or at least trade punches like a man instead of threatening to ban me or deleting a thread because you and Lucid have a little dust-up.

You suggested that I called Munoz out because I am anti-war. That's partly true, I suppose. [b]But my hackles went up because I'm a vet, too.[/b]
[/quote]


I think Bung and I had the same response (not to speak for you bung).. But I think it says something when those who are most familiar with the subtleties (not so subtle when you are in it) of the matter have this same response.

My response in the thread had nothing to do with the argument between you and old... When I read the argument I sighed and shook my head when I read the bit about the bomb signing.. Then when I read Bung's post I felt the need to add another service members opinion, so people would know this isn't some left wing anti-war bull shit..

It stems purely from intimacy with the subject.. A perspective I can't expect one to share who hasn't shared the experience.. It has nothing to do with any anti-war stance for me, but rather out of the respect for the dignity of human life, and the tragedy that occurs when that life is snuffed out.

Justified or not, war sucks.. And the very act of it diminishes us all.. The fact remains, IMO, God put us here the way we are for a reason.. And he expects us to work this shit out without killing each other off..

"Thou shalt not kill"...
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1300375496' post='977567']
Well, on this war stuff you are a very dangerous person, imo. Guys with your views shouldn't be able to cheerlead this crap with impunity. Just as Munoz doesn't get a free pass simply because he played a game well. Hell, Munoz is even more fair game than you are because he played a significant role in Bush's reelection. ([url="http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/09/09/loc_loc1almunoz.html"]Ex-Bengal Muñoz to be Bush chairman[/url]) As far as I am concerned, he's more of a chickenhawk than you are. And while being a member of a USO delegation is a nice thing, others here will tell you it ain't the same thing as being asked to put your ass on the line.

We obviously disagree, and will continue to disagree, about when this nation ought to engage in warfare. That's fine. But if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Or at least trade punches like a man instead of threatening to ban me or deleting a thread because you and Lucid have a little dust-up.

You suggested that I called Munoz out because I am anti-war. That's partly true, I suppose. But my hackles went up because I'm a vet, too.
[/quote]



Sharing your views and having people talk down to you, calling you names and flat out
telling you that you are beneath them is not not being able to stand the heat.

I flat out asked you to stop with the attacks and have a discussion. I said that if
there were ever 2 people that needed to talk out their differences, it was people
like you and I. I asked Jamie to show me the same respect that I was showing
him. He flat out said he couldn't. You both act like because someone doesn't
share your views that they should be degraded and demeaned. You said as much.
That is why I threatened to suspend you. You were making it personal. And when
asked, you refused. Jamie likewise. Now you guys act like I am just some hot-head
that can't take the heat. LOL

I think that was deplorable actions coming from Jamie. Ecspecially since he is a Mod.
He wouldn't have stood for the way you and him talked to me if it was a different subject
and/or if it was someone he agreed with that was being talked to by others that way.
Instead Jamie ran to Go like I was doing something
wrong. And when Go made it known that you had free reign here, I was like fuck it. Can't
make them show the same respect you are giving, then don't show them any at all.

And that is why we are where we are now. I don't respect you or Jamie. I don't care if
I agree with what you are saying or not. Because I know how you interact with people
that don't agree.

So call me a chickenhawk. Call me other names. I stated why I feel the way about
this war as best as I can. Ignore it. Just act like I didn't say it. Act like because I
didn't serve that my opinion means less. To me that is like saying I don't think
people should be arrested because I am not out there putting my life on the
line trying to arrest people.
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1300374180' post='977554']
And yes, in an important way, Lucid is the victim here. In fact, your mental antennae should have perked up when 3 (or was it 4?) vets all came to similar conclusions about the behavior of Munoz. [/quote]

Regardless of how many vets came to the conclusion does not make it a truth. His behavior should not be on trial. What he did was non-criminal in nature with no ability to become criminal. We do not need to be the morality police on what a person should and should not feel. To sum up, I do not have an issue with his actions and this is similar to what MANY other civilians have done in the past and present (not that the amount has any bearing on this matter). Yet, when these actions happened in the past, how many here were upset that there morality cart was turned over ?

The root of this argument is Munoz, a civilian, signed a bomb. He did sign it. Was it morally reprehensible ? That is up to each person and there own set of morals. The second we all follow the crowd on issues like morality then it is possible to run down a path similar to certain times in history that reminds us of why it is sometimes necessary to go against the grain of the mob mentality/morality. Homer knows of the civil rights issues in 60's and probably also knows that those buses would have been pretty empty had it not been for a few people who went against the grain to support the minority.

Now, if Munoz had signed the bomb with the words; “Here’s a Ramadan present from Chad Rickenberg” then there might be an issue because of the backlash. Is this a double standard ? no, because we all understand the amount of wars also fought as a religious experience and giving the other side ammunition for killing more of our people would not be a good thing and in my eyes would be criminal. The fact a bomb was dropped on their head is enough to piss them off and is obscene in itself.

[quote]We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene![/quote]
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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1300376283' post='977571']
Sharing your views and having people talk down to you, calling you names and flat out
telling you that you are beneath them is not not being able to stand the heat.

I flat out asked you to stop with the attacks and have a discussion. I said that if
there were ever 2 people that needed to talk out their differences, it was people
like you and I. I asked Jamie to show me the same respect that I was showing
him. He flat out said he couldn't. You both act like because someone doesn't
share your views that they should be degraded and demeaned. You said as much.
That is why I threatened to suspend you. You were making it personal. And when
asked, you refused. Jamie likewise. Now you guys act like I am just some hot-head
that can't take the heat. LOL

I think that was deplorable actions coming from Jamie. Ecspecially since he is a Mod.
He wouldn't have stood for the way you and him talked to me if it was a different subject
and/or if it was someone he agreed with that was being talked to by others that way.
Instead Jamie ran to Go like I was doing something
wrong. And when Go made it known that you had free reign here, I was like fuck it. Can't
make them show the same respect you are giving, then don't show them any at all.

And that is why we are where we are now. I don't respect you or Jamie. I don't care if
I agree with what you are saying or not. Because I know how you interact with people
that don't agree.

So call me a chickenhawk. Call me other names. I stated why I feel the way about
this war as best as I can. Ignore it. Just act like I didn't say it. [b]Act like because I
didn't serve that my opinion means less.[/b] To me that is like saying I don't think
people should be arrested because I am not out there putting my life on the
line trying to arrest people.
[/quote]

Speaking for myself only, I didn't use my service to simply degrade an opinion.. You have every right to your opinion as I do mine.. But I [i]will[/i] use my status as a veteran to refute an opinion that states I am somehow not patriotic, or don't support the troops.

I know you get emotional about this.. But imagine how emotional you would get if you were me... If you had sacrificed for your country just to have someone try and act like you aren't as patriotic as they are, or that you don't support the troops like they do..

That is the only reason I personally threw my service at you.
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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1300374137' post='977552']
Don't apply a tone to it. Don't apply anything to it at all, or even
limits when it is more than you were willing to do.

Matter of a fact. I was going to send you a PM and explain.
Instead I was called a coward on my profile, which I deleted
if that's OK with you. And I was called a coward in PM. Then
I was called out in a thread. You are lucky you got any apology
at all after all of that.


But really though I am sorry. I am sorry that you misunderstood
and took what I said as an attack on you. It wasn't. I only attacked
after I felt attacked.

I am sorry that I attacked. I tried to move on from the attacks after,
but was met with more attacks. Still doesn't make what I did right.
[/quote]




I love how an apology is ignored and not reciprocated.
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[quote name='Numbers' timestamp='1300376371' post='977572']
Regardless of how many vets came to the conclusion does not make it a truth. His behavior should not be on trial. What he did was non-criminal in nature with no ability to become criminal. We do not need to be the morality police on what a person should and should not feel. To sum up, I do not have an issue with his actions and this is similar to what MANY other civilians have done in the past and present (not that the amount has any bearing on this matter). Yet, when these actions happened in the past, how many here were upset that there morality cart was turned over ?

The root of this argument is Munoz, a civilian, signed a bomb. He did sign it. Was it morally reprehensible ? That is up to each person and there own set of morals. The second we all follow the crowd on issues like morality then it is possible to run down a path similar to certain times in history that reminds us of why it is sometimes necessary to go against the grain of the mob mentality/morality. Homer knows of the civil rights issues in 60's and probably also knows that those buses would have been pretty empty had it not been for a few people who went against the grain to support the minority.

Now, if Munoz had signed the bomb with the words; “Here’s a Ramadan present from Chad Rickenberg” then there might be an issue because of the backlash. Is this a double standard ? no, because we all understand the amount of wars also fought as a religious experience and giving the other side ammunition for killing more of our people would not be a good thing and in my eyes would be criminal. The fact a bomb was dropped on their head is enough to piss them off and is obscene in itself.
[/quote]

No one suggested that he be strung up for it, or jailed.. All anyone did was just as you suggest is appropriate... They stated their own personal moral opinion on the issue.

As far as I can tell, Old was the one trying to tell people what was appropraite to feel on the matter. He's the one who started shaving his finger at people for stating their opinion.
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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1300376636' post='977574']
I love how an apology is ignored and not reciprocated.
[/quote]

Old, I am sorry for how I made you feel... Completely. I don;t like making people angry..

But I will not apologize for what I said.. I didn't say anything wrong, and despite your assertions only defended myself, never firing a shot until I was fired upon.

I will stand by my record here, which I think shows a strong tendency to apologize when warranted and respecting the opinions of others. I slip on occasion, but ALWAYS man up and own it if that is indeed appropriate. I will not apologize however, for defending myself.
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[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300376606' post='977573']
Speaking for myself only, I didn't use my service to simply degrade an opinion.. You have every right to your opinion as I do mine.. But I [i]will[/i] use my status as a veteran to refute an opinion that states I am somehow not patriotic, or don't support the troops.

I know you get emotional about this.. But imagine how emotional you would get if you were me... If you had sacrificed for your country just to have someone try and act like you aren't as patriotic as they are, or that you don't support the troops like they do..

That is the only reason I personally threw my service at you.
[/quote]

I didn't act that way though. I never questioned your patriotism.
Or said anything like you are implying.

I said more negativity. That was all. You acted like I was telling people
how they are allowed to think. Told me that I act like it is a fucking crime
to have people disagree with me. And said I should stop being a dick.
All because I said UGH, more negativity.


I have had the lack of service, like it was fault of my own, thrown in my face
numerous times here from Homer and Jamie. They sure love to throw that
chickenhawk term my way. Let me tell ya. So when I saw it again. I was like WTF.


Like I said, I think it was all just a big misunderstanding. I apologize.

But the funny thing is, I apologized when Jamie and Homer ganged up
on me a few months ago and Go said it was OK, after Jamie ran to him.

All I know is I am sick of apologizing for giving back what I am getting.
And not having it reciprocated. I am not the only one at fault here.
And I am tired of it coming off that way.
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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1300377002' post='977579']
I didn't act that way though. I never questioned your patriotism.
Or said anything like you are implying.

I said more negativity. That was all. You acted like I was telling people
how they are allowed to think. Told me that I act like it is a fucking crime
to have people disagree with me. And said I should stop being a dick.
All because I said UGH, more negativity.


I have had the lack of service, like it was fault of my own, thrown in my face
numerous times here from Homer and Jamie. They sure love to throw that
chickenhawk term my way. Let me tell ya. So when I saw it again. I was like WTF.


Like I said, I think it was all just a big misunderstanding. I apologize.

But the funny thing is, I apologized when Jamie and Homer ganged up
on me a few months ago and Go said it was OK, after Jamie ran to him.

All I know is I am sick of apologizing for giving back what I am getting.
And not having it reciprocated. I am not the only one at fault here.
And I am tired of it coming off that way.
[/quote]

The first shot fired was the "baby killing soldiers" comment.. Which beyond a doubt was meant to imply my lack of support for the troops.. That was when I threw my service in your face and told you to quit being a dick... The thought police comment (which I do not take as an insult any more than calling someone a grammar nazi, ie: light hearted jab) Came after your initial reply of "Ughh more negativity" in which you claimed it was shameful that more people didn't see things like you did.
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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1300376283' post='977571']
Sharing your views and having people talk down to you, calling you names and flat out
telling you that you are beneath them is not not being able to stand the heat.

I flat out asked you to stop with the attacks and have a discussion. [b]I said that if
there were ever 2 people that needed to talk out their differences, it was people
like you and I.[/b] I asked Jamie to show me the same respect that I was showing
him. He flat out said he couldn't. You both act like because someone doesn't
share your views that they should be degraded and demeaned. You said as much.
That is why I threatened to suspend you. You were making it personal. And when
asked, you refused. Jamie likewise. Now you guys act like I am just some hot-head
that can't take the heat. LOL

I think that was deplorable actions coming from Jamie. Ecspecially since he is a Mod.
He wouldn't have stood for the way you and him talked to me if it was a different subject
and/or if it was someone he agreed with that was being talked to by others that way.
Instead Jamie ran to Go like I was doing something
wrong. And when Go made it known that you had free reign here, I was like fuck it. Can't
make them show the same respect you are giving, then don't show them any at all.

And that is why we are where we are now. I don't respect you or Jamie. I don't care if
I agree with what you are saying or not. Because I know how you interact with people
that don't agree.

So call me a chickenhawk. Call me other names. I stated why I feel the way about
this war as best as I can. Ignore it. Just act like I didn't say it. Act like because I
didn't serve that my opinion means less. To me that is like saying I don't think
people should be arrested because I am not out there putting my life on the
line trying to arrest people.
[/quote]
Lol. You should revisit the [url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=57317&st=50"]Torture thread[/url]. Link is to page 3 but feel free to reread the entire series of posts.
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[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300376808' post='977576']
As far as I can tell, Old was the one trying to tell people what was appropraite to feel on the matter. He's the one who started shaving his finger at people for stating their opinion.
[/quote]


I just think it was sad that others wanted to shame and make that the topic when
there was more positive things to focus on. And when I said that, I was told to
get ready for a "beatdown", and had Jamie talking about murdering people.

Really?


And then you and Bung came in and went with their negativity. Which I aknowledged as such.

So I was like UGH.

Then, well, you know the rest.

Feel what you want. I never said anyone couldn't. I just stated that I think it is pretty damned
sad that people wanted to go there. No one, I mean NO ONE, said to the dude that was serving
and was pumped to see Munoz, thanks. Happy for him, nothing. Instead it went to a dark place.
And I think that is a damned shame.

I just don't know why when the Iraq war is mentioned, some act like they have to berate over it.
Not saying you were. But I was ashamed for jmkbengal at some of the shit that was being said
and no one was aknowledging him. Instead, they thought the shame was more worthy.
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