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Lucid

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Gotta be honest here, I'd really like to see Jamie's response.

[quote]However, there ARE some forms of respect that are natural... For example, you should respect people as people. All people have the right to be treated with dignity and fairness.

[b]No one has to earn the "right" to not be treated like shit[/b], or as a lesser individual... No one should have to earn the right to speak their mind without fear of repercussions, as long as speaking their mind is not seeking to deny others their rights as individuals[/quote]

I'd say that while everyone should get this respect to start with, it is possible through actions or in this case words, to lose this basic respect on top of any earned respect.

If I had to guess (and I'm gonna cause its Friday, my paperwork is done, and I can't possibly make the shit-show that is this forum any crazier) it seems to me that Jamie feels Old's "opinion" on the Iraq war and torture, which have been laid out in detail, are "negative enough" (i.e. these opinions translate indirectly to undue suffering and death of people) that he no longer feels the need to abide by the base law of respect for humans.

I'll hold off on my opinions of these specifics because they've been rehashed to death here, but I will say that I agree with the philosophy that one can lose the basic respect we should approach all humans with.

My case in point, Mike Vick. After learning about his ordered/witnessed (and likely helping hand) in drowning, hanging and electrocuting under "performing" dogs, I have lost any and all respect for him as a human being and I feel he deserves none from anyone. This is just an example for easy discussion because its a devise topic (like torture) that finds many people on both sides of the fence. But you will NEVER find me giving him any "due respect" just because he is still human. I can respect our countries legal process (even if I disagree with their treatment of animal cruelty in general) that he has served his time and earned a chance to start over, but if he posted here you better damn well believe I won't show him an ounce of respect in any regard.
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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1300468383' post='978010']
Gotta be honest here, I'd really like to see Jamie's response.



I'd say that while everyone should get this respect to start with, it is possible through actions or in this case words, to lose this basic respect on top of any earned respect.

If I had to guess (and I'm gonna cause its Friday, my paperwork is done, and I can't possibly make the shit-show that is this forum any crazier) it seems to me that Jamie feels Old's "opinion" on the Iraq war and torture, which have been laid out in detail, are "negative enough" (i.e. these opinions translate indirectly to undue suffering and death of people) that he no longer feels the need to abide by the base law of respect for humans.

I'll hold off on my opinions of these specifics because they've been rehashed to death here, but I will say that I agree with the philosophy that one can lose the basic respect we should approach all humans with.

My case in point, Mike Vick. After learning about his ordered/witnessed (and likely helping hand) in drowning, hanging and electrocuting under "performing" dogs, I have lost any and all respect for him as a human being and I feel he deserves none from anyone. This is just an example for easy discussion because its a devise topic (like torture) that finds many people on both sides of the fence. But you will NEVER find me giving him any "due respect" just because he is still human. I can respect our countries legal process (even if I disagree with their treatment of animal cruelty in general) that he has served his time and earned a chance to start over, but if he posted here you better damn well believe I won't show him an ounce of respect in any regard.
[/quote]

There is a big difference between actions and thoughts.. I find torture deplorable as well, and think it should never be used. I also find support for torture to be shameful and sad.. But I will defend someones right to think what they will, and to state their opinion without fear of reprisal.

If we accept the notion of a thought police that determines what are acceptable ideas and what are not who writes the standard? I don't want to be treated like shit or thrown in jail because I support the right to choose (which many feel is just as horrendous as torture).

Should the republicans be able to discriminate and persecute perceived socialists? How do you feel about McCarthyism?

Mike Vick was a criminal who through his actions caused needless pain and suffering. I don't think people who feel he has the right to fight dogs should be treated the same way as those who fight dogs.

It's a strange disconnect to be sure, but necessary to the functioning of a free society.
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Also, obviously, those guilty of a crime lose some of these rights..

But I ask you.. If Mike Vick were accused of something else in the future.. Is he not entitled to due process? Does he not have the right to speak to his own defense?

I get that you lose respect for Mike Vick.. But as a person he is still due inalienable rights under our constitution..
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[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300468757' post='978012']
[b]There is a big difference between actions and thoughts.. [/b]I find torture deplorable as well, and think it should never be used. I also find support for torture to be shameful and sad.. But I will defend someones right to think what they will, and to state their opinion without fear of reprisal.

If we accept the notion of a thought police that determines what are acceptable ideas and what are not who writes the standard? I don't want to be treated like shit or thrown in jail because I support the right to choose (which many feel is just as horrendous as torture).

Should the republicans be able to discriminate and persecute perceived socialists? How do you feel about McCarthyism?

Mike Vick was a criminal who through his actions caused needless pain and suffering. I don't think people who feel he has the right to fight dogs should be treated the same way as those who fight dogs.

It's a strange disconnect to be sure, but necessary to the functioning of a free society.
[/quote]


I agree, hence I refrained from adding my own commentary on the mindsets that can get behind torture or the war in Iraq. I was just taking a stab at why J might disagree with your post.
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[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300469320' post='978015']
Also, obviously, those guilty of a crime lose some of these rights..

But I ask you.. If Mike Vick were accused of something else in the future.. Is he not entitled to due process? Does he not have the right to speak to his own defense?

I get that you lose respect for Mike Vick.. But as a person he is still due inalienable rights under our constitution..
[/quote]


[quote]I can respect our country's legal process[/quote] (grammar correction added)
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[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300446107' post='977858']
I think that is most likely due to your political bent.

The 3 people you are referring to all have a similar manner of conducting themselves.

And for fuck sakes can we just stop it with all the lame ass insults and name calling already? Seriously Backer.. What is the point in you coming in here and piling on?

Wasn't 9 pages of this bullshit that had absolutely nothing to do with you enough, without you having to take your own personal dump on this pile of shit?

I have always considered you one of the wiser posters on here, even though I don't agree with you much of the time. This, however was entirely unnecessary.
[/quote]

I don't know, maybe I should have stayed out of it. My post was more a general observation about the forum than this particular shitstorm though, and why myself, and I suspect others, don't engage here. While I didn't name names, I think the fact that everyone knows who I was talking about gives some validity to what I said.

You're right though, it's not my style to sling such insults, and for that I apologize. That's why I don't post here. It's been proven that if you speak an opposing view in here, you can expect to be insulted and ridiculed, and if I were to engage more often, I too would feel the need to retaliate in kind, as in my previous post. It seems the only times I've posted in here the last couple of years is to talk about why I don't post in here. Upon reflection, by now that's pretty pointless and futile, and quite possibly a little passive-aggressive on my part, so yeah, I guess I suck too.

I have a lot of respect for you Lucid. If we all took your approach, this forum would be more enjoyable, and possibly even productive.
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[quote name='BengalBacker' timestamp='1300473472' post='978039']
I don't know, maybe I should have stayed out of it. My post was more a general observation about the forum than this particular shitstorm though, and why myself, and I suspect others, don't engage here. While I didn't name names, I think the fact that everyone knows who I was talking about gives some validity to what I said.

You're right though, it's not my style to sling such insults, and for that I apologize. That's why I don't post here. It's been proven that if you speak an opposing view in here, you can expect to be insulted and ridiculed, and if I were to engage more often, I too would feel the need to retaliate in kind, as in my previous post. It seems the only times I've posted in here the last couple of years is to talk about why I don't post in here. Upon reflection, by now that's pretty pointless and futile, and quite possibly a little passive-aggressive on my part, so yeah, I guess I suck too.

I have a lot of respect for you Lucid. If we all took your approach, this forum would be more enjoyable, and possibly even productive.
[/quote]

Thanks man, the compliment means a lot to me coming from you. I often wonder when I read you political views how we got to see things so differently when, on other subjects I almost always feel you are so spot on.

Which is actually the case in point.. We could probably sit down together and blaze a fatty and as long as we never talked politics have a fucking great time..

Why should I despise someone simply for arriving at different conclusions than myself? Life is far from easy, and picking your way through it is so complicated. We are only humans and unfortunately so limited in our capacity to see and understand. It's a wonder we have made it this far.

I too stopped coming here because it would rile me up to the point I said things and behaved in a way that made me feel ashamed.

I am going to make another go at it.. Because I think what this country needs more than anything is for it's people to make a concerted effort to get back to real dialogue. And embracing the idea that your fellow American is your brother, even if they are on the other side of the isle..

Lets focus on solving problems, not vanquishing our foes, who are in reality part of our family.

If the people are so disconnected from these basic tenets of our republic, how is it that we can expect our politicians to carry the torch for us?

A government BY THE PEOPLE.
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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1300469330' post='978016']
I agree, hence I refrained from adding my own commentary on the mindsets that can get behind torture or the war in Iraq. I was just taking a stab at why J might disagree with your post.
[/quote]



My mind set is Saddam's actions caused the war. I mean seriously, the
dude had 12 years to abide by the terms of surrender. He did everything
but. He could have prevented the war. He chose not to. Like I said, I
don't agree with how Bush went about it. But half the U.N. is crooked too.
I don't agree with most of the way the war was/has been handled. But I
support it. And I sure as hell support the troops serving there.

There is no love of war for me. I was born in 1969. The first war of my lifetime
was the Gulf War of 1991. I thought it was a mistake then that we left him in
power. All he did from 1991-2003 was show me that I was indeed right.
I mean really, the list of things he did while Clinton was in Office his 1st term was
reason enough to invade. And I know Iraq and 9/11 aren't connected.
But 9/11 did have an impact on how he had to deal with Saddam.
At least in my views. After 9/11, his bullshit just couldn't be tolerated.
It was time to abide by the terms of his surrender, or get the fuck out.


As far as torture. I said I wasn't against people that are trying to kill
a countless number of innocent people to have done to them what
our own men go through in SERE training. I know it isn't done to the
same extent. But our guys are being trained. The bad guys are wanting
to kill a countless number of innocent people. If it being done to them
saves those lives, then yes, I was for it.

I am not some evil bastard. Nor do I think I support evil. I just don't
like innocent people being killed. I am seriously fearful for the future
of my children. I am pretty disappointed in Obama's foriegn policies so far.
I voted for him hoping he could help bring our allies in and help fight
for the betterment of the World. I don't want more enemies. I don't
want any enemies. But sometimes you have to fight to gain peace.

As far as the chickenhawk shit. I think that is so lame. Like I said,
to me, it is like someone acting like I am a pussy because I want
my streets to be safe and laws to be enforced, but I am not out
fighting crime personally.

I also understand that our past foriegn policies have helped get us
to the place we are today. I wish they would change a lot of them.
I wish we would stop playing both sides of the fence between
Israel and Palestine. Pick a fucking side or better yet, stay out
of it completely. I also know we are hypocrites when it comes
to what some rulers do in certain Nations and what we turn a
blind eye too.

But I still think this is the greatest Country in the World. That isn't
saying a whole lot, because this World is pretty fucked up.

To tell you the truth, I am very disheartened with politics altogether anymore.
It seems like they are all the same basically, they just have different views
on some things. But all of them suck.

Just thought I would explain myself a little. You probably don't agree with
what I said. And that's OK. But I don't see how you could read my stance
and think my mind set is anything but that of a concerned parent and American.
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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1300474973' post='978050']

Just thought I would explain myself a little. [b]You probably don't agree with
what I said.[/b] And that's OK. But I don't see how you could read my stance
and think my mind set is anything but that of a [b]concerned parent and American.[/b]
[/quote]

Again, I have abstained (at least in this discussion) from my views on how I feel about someone who supports the wars or torture and was only commenting on what I could composite was Jamie's thoughts.

I'll agree to disagree about the wars. I'm pretty sure the USA has a policy against assassination, but I feel like that may have been a better route. And I'm fairly certain that there are many evil men who are doing terrible things to their people, that our country glosses over because said country and its natural resources are not that important to us. If we were consistant with our message to "spread democracy" to other places where genocide is happening, I'd have [b]less[/b] of a problem with the invasions because at least we'd be sticking to our guns.

I believe that torture does not elicit accurate information at any reliable rate. But my bigger problem with torture is that we use it on people who have not undergone due process. I think we don't extend those rights to war criminals and that sounds like a debate worth having, but I have a problem with torturing someone who may be innocent even more so than the suggestion from the data that it is unreliable at best.

Also, I think, a lot of the topics in this forum revolve around how best to be a concerned parent and American, but its never obvious amidst the flame-throwing involved in the broad scope topics like the Iraq war.

As a personal aside, I know I've been hammered on here in the past for opinions that I "knew" to be true. After a while, when I came across an impass, I took a step back and thought about the evidence or ideas or beliefs that would be required for my opinion to be wrong. I tried to look for these items from external sources and within the context of the argument and then look at them as objectively as I could. When I did find the time to engage in this whole process I always felt better regardless of whether I shifted my beliefs or reinforced them. Reinforcing them allowed me to refrain from poking just poke when the same argument arose and shifting them allowed me to contribute when I otherwise would have remained silent.

"I never thought about it that way" is a phrase that not nearly enough people use in this forum, myself included. Its not always warranted, but its never there when it is.
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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1300478037' post='978068']
Again, I have abstained (at least in this discussion) from my views on how I feel about someone who supports the wars or torture and was only commenting on what I could composite was Jamie's thoughts.

I'll agree to disagree about the wars. I'm pretty sure the USA has a policy against assassination, but I feel like that may have been a better route. And I'm fairly certain that there are many evil men who are doing terrible things to their people, that our country glosses over because said country and its natural resources are not that important to us. If we were consistant with our message to "spread democracy" to other places where genocide is happening, I'd have [b]less[/b] of a problem with the invasions because at least we'd be sticking to our guns.

I believe that torture does not elicit accurate information at any reliable rate. But my bigger problem with torture is that we use it on people who have not undergone due process. I think we don't extend those rights to war criminals and that sounds like a debate worth having, but I have a problem with torturing someone who may be innocent even more so than the suggestion from the data that it is unreliable at best.

Also, I think, a lot of the topics in this forum revolve around how best to be a concerned parent and American, but its never obvious amidst the flame-throwing involved in the broad scope topics like the Iraq war.

As a personal aside, I know I've been hammered on here in the past for opinions that I "knew" to be true. After a while, when I came across an impass, I took a step back and thought about the evidence or ideas or beliefs that would be required for my opinion to be wrong. I tried to look for these items from external sources and within the context of the argument and then look at them as objectively as I could. When I did find the time to engage in this whole process I always felt better regardless of whether I shifted my beliefs or reinforced them. Reinforcing them allowed me to refrain from poking just poke when the same argument arose and shifting them allowed me to contribute when I otherwise would have remained silent.

"I never thought about it that way" is a phrase that not nearly enough people use in this forum, myself included. Its not always warranted, but its never there when it is.
[/quote]


See, I can relate to this. I know a lot of people aren't going to share my views.
That's part of what makes me me and them them. So I can respect that.
I just don't like some of the terms thrown my way because of my views.
And the instant judgement placed upon me because of those views.
I hate the degrading and demeaning some feel the need to do with those
that don't share their views. So you should abstain from your views on
the person. Believe me, I have abstained from how I feel about people
that are against some of the things I am for. We aren't talking about people
that have these views, we are talking about and topic and sharing views.
Whether they be the same or polar opposites.

I agree with a lot of what you said.

Except we were asked to help remove Saddam. Our forces were the main one's.
And when we tried to enforce the terms of surrender, some countries that didn't
put their asses on the line like our's did, and had back room deals with Saddam
said no.

The waterboarding isn't done anymore. At least that is what I hear. So I don't even think it is a topic to
get into. I was just saying that if info was gathered that thwarted an attack, and saved innocent lives,
like it was said to have in L.A. then yes, I was for it.


I have thought about things a lot of ways. So you're right, I don't use that phrase a whole lot.
And it seems like not much is said to me that I haven't thought about. I did a lot of acid and
shrooms in my younger days. lol

Anyway, I would love nothing more than to have civil conversations with my polar opposites
on different topics. Who the hell wants to talk about shit where everyone is in agreement?
You say something and everyone says "+1" or "Hell yeah" or something like that. Like I said
before, I think people that are polar opposites are the one's that need to talk the most.
And they need to do it with mutual respect. That's all I have ever asked for and wanted
for this forum.
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