Jamie_B Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 I used think in another thread but what the hell.... [img]http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a357/a357.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jun 7 2005, 03:39 PM']A person on life support isn't using another person in order to live. I think his point is that an embryo that could not survive with the most advanced life support system without "using" the mother is not considered alive. I could be wrong though. These sentences are too long....and I'm still trying to do that spreadsheet. [right][post="100420"][/post][/right][/quote] Can a leech survive without host blood? Then it must not be alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 7 2005, 03:21 PM'][b]No any being that is not independently existing can not require another human to aid in their "living" by living off of their organs, lungs etc.... Just like you can't take another human and make them attach their lungs to someone on a respirator, a woman who owns her own body can not be made to "rent" out her bodily functions for a fetus, or sploch of goop that can not exist on it's own ....... to decalre a fetus that can not exist independently a human, would be the same as decalring a living person an undead corpse and then dissecting them for science. [/b] [right][post="100414"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] a baby in the womans womb will live w/out any support (unless the woman doesn't eat) but someone on life support wouldn't live w/out ARTIFICIAL life... how can someone on life support be more alive than an unborn fetus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='sean' date='Jun 7 2005, 03:51 PM']Can a leech survive without host blood? Then it must not be alive. [right][post="100423"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] I was mearly trying to reword BJ's post. This is not my opinion. Although it's not far off from what I might say. BJ can say whether or not I interpreted his words correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaker Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 To me it begins when the soul enters the new body...all our standards for detection of life are arbitrarily based upon something. Im sure that clears it right up...lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 [quote name='Beaker' date='Jun 7 2005, 06:45 PM']To me it begins when the soul enters the new body...all our standards for detection of life are arbitrarily based upon something. Im sure that clears it right up...lol. [right][post="100465"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] That's about how I feel. When the spirit takes over the new body. We have no idea of telling when that point is, so it is hard to say. This is why I cannot say whether I think the morning after pill is ok or not. Maybe the spirit takes over the egg as soon as it is fertilized. Or soul, for those of you who have trouble with the word spirit. But I'm serious, I don't know if Beaker is being sarcastic or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 [i][b]Maybe the "Soul" exists solely in the Magical Mayo itself (sperm) or maybe the soul only exists in the egg, that would make destoying either or shooting into Klenex murder, or condoms for that matter. Ths "soul" argument is the dumbest of them all because we don't know if souls exist. On to some other comments.... Bengalsis you were correct in your interpretaton of what I was saying.... (I knew that crush wasn't only based on looks ) [quote]Can a leech survive without host blood?[/quote] this would be like saying can a person survive without food or water... it is not the same thing... also humans recognize that there are inalenable rights that humans possess that leeches don't..... [quote]a baby in the womans womb will live w/out any support (unless the woman doesn't eat) but someone on life support wouldn't live w/out ARTIFICIAL life... how can someone on life support be more alive than an unborn fetus?[/quote] Bingo.... we would need laws mandating that women need to eat, not fall on their stomachs, etc that is why you can not start legislating into a womans uterus. I believe that a woman has the right to extract any part of her body whenever she wishes.... this includes a fetus living off of her body. If once she removes it, it is not breathing or isn't developed enough to exist independently then "it was not a person yet".... the alternative is to make women breeding mares, where once they get impregnated either deliberatley or through rape , the uterus becomes state property and they can mandate that no coat hangers go up there, that the woman eats, drinks water etc..... all women would have to do is just not drink water for a few days and that would kill the fetus. [/b][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaker Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 [quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 8 2005, 01:57 AM'][i][b]Ths "soul" argument is the dumbest of them all because we don't know if souls exist.[/quote] Just because we cant prove the tangebility of something doesnt men it doesnt exist. I wasnt truly trying to get into this "when life begins" argument because its an ambivalent thing. But I do know my soul exists. It is the essence of my being. My body is simply the vessel. And I believe this in a very non religious way. Call it dumb if you want, but its simply my belief/opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 Dumbest of them all, huh? Wow, maybe you need some spiritual time there, BJ. Take some time out for meditations. To completely erase anyone's beliefs in a soul because you don't believe is well, ignorant. I know for a fact that there is a soul/spirit within me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-GoBengals- Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 [quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jun 7 2005, 03:13 PM']Like I said...she is not considered pregnant for those 24 hours. Only catholics that do not agree with birth control should really be offended by this method. This is no different than wearing a condom and not letting the sperm get there to start with. And again, as with the gay marriage thing. I have more important things to worry about than if a chick wants to stop an egg from implanting in her uterus. Is it murder? Not in my opinion. I think it's funny because if any of you guys had a fling with a chick and the condom broke, I'm not so sure you would have such ill feelings towards that morning after pill. Until the egg attaches, nothing can happen to start the "life" process. [right][post="100412"][/post][/right][/quote] i have never felt closer to you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 [i][b]Maybe I should clarify.... I don't mind spirituality and consider myself quite spiritual... It is religion, faith, and Dogmatic obedience that I hate. As for the soul argument being dumb, when you are talking about a soul I am not sure if you mean the same thing that I do. I also don't believe that this "soul" exists in a protplasmic pile of goop inside a womans uterus. This "sense of being" or whatever you are speaking to I think if it did exist, it would only come to fruition with your first breath of life.... that you take on your own. [/b][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 [quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 7 2005, 08:57 PM']this would be like saying can a person survive without food or water... it is not the same thing... also humans recognize that there are inalenable rights that humans possess that leeches don't..... [right][post="100507"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] exactly.the inalienable rights of the baby. and a mother sustains a fetus just as a host sustains a leech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 [i][b]yes the inalienable rights of a baby Baby - infant person who has all of the means for symbiotic survival independent of the mother... Rights don't apply to goo in a petri dish Well I guess if you are Bush they do [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/30.gif[/img] [/b][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaker Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 [quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 8 2005, 03:58 AM'][i][b]Maybe I should clarify.... I don't mind spirituality and consider myself quite spiritual... It is religion, faith, and Dogmatic obedience that I hate. As for the soul argument being dumb, when you are talking about a soul I am not sure if you mean the same thing that I do. I also don't believe that this "soul" exists in a protplasmic pile of goop inside a womans uterus. This "sense of being" or whatever you are speaking to I think if it did exist, it would only come to fruition with your first breath of life.... that you take on your own. [/b][/i] [right][post="100533"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] My whole point was that I dont know when life begins...I have no idea at what point the soul or "being" enters the body. I simply believe that that is when life...here on earth...begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 [quote name='GoBengals' date='Jun 7 2005, 10:56 PM']i have never felt closer to you... [right][post="100531"][/post][/right][/quote] Well, don't worry, I'm sure we'll find something to disagree about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jza10304 Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 How can you guys be SO SURE that the "soul" exists? At least accept that it is part of your belief system (not the same as religion). Do I have a soul then, even if I don't believe in souls (not that I don't)? When you talk about the metaphysical, speaking with absolute certainty is ridiculous. You can say that you are 100% convinced but that wouldn't make you right or wrong. When it gets into making laws and rules for everyone to abide by based upon your beliefs of souls, spirit, or whatever else then it is going too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 jza, I would not pass laws based on my beliefs. They are what I believe in and I will act accordingly for myself. And I really do, 100%, believe in souls/spirits. I'm not talking from a religious point of view. I am talking from a self exploration point of view. The only thing I would ask is that each and every person make some sort of spiritual journey of his/her own. I'll stop talking now because you guys might find me crazy. I'll just say I'm not so much into the spiritual side of things now because I am afraid, there are some scary souls out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaker Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 [quote name='jza10304' date='Jun 8 2005, 03:46 PM']How can you guys be SO SURE that the "soul" exists? At least accept that it is part of your belief system (not the same as religion). Do I have a soul then, even if I don't believe in souls (not that I don't)? When you talk about the metaphysical, speaking with absolute certainty is ridiculous. You can say that you are 100% convinced but that wouldn't make you right or wrong. When it gets into making laws and rules for everyone to abide by based upon your beliefs of souls, spirit, or whatever else then it is going too far. [right][post="100687"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] Im not saying to make laws based upon that. Lets try to explain this more clearly. The point I was making is that the beginning of life is a nebulous concept. Some say conception, some say birth, some say viability, I say when the soul takes the body. The gray area with my belief is HUGE....thats the point...its not a subject that can be cleared up. I just didnt appreciate my input being called foolish. Im not saying anyone else should believe the way I do, or that there should be laws based upon my beliefs. Im just going to end my input on this with a big NEVERMIND. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 [i][b]C'mon beaker.... I apologize if you think I was refering to your beliefs as foolish, I think you are one of the more knowledgeable people on here, I just am puzzled how someone who understands Science as much as you do, believes that a soul enters the body at conception? Maybe you can elaborate?[/b][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaker Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 [quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 8 2005, 07:53 PM'][i][b]C'mon beaker.... I apologize if you think I was refering to your beliefs as foolish, I think you are one of the more knowledgeable people on here, I just am puzzled how someone who understands Science as much as you do, believes that a soul enters the body at conception? Maybe you can elaborate?[/b][/i] [right][post="100807"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] First, I didnt say a soul enters at conception, I said I have no idea when it does...I just believe it does. Secondly, science and spirituality are not mutually exclusive. In fact, the more I learn about quantum physics, the more convinced I am that there is a "source" of all this energy in the universe. I cannot elaborate further than that...sorry...my spritual beliefs are still evolving. But I do share a disdain for organized religion with you. I really dont care for how it separates us as humans, and as spritual beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldschooler Posted June 10, 2005 Report Share Posted June 10, 2005 A baby can survive outside of the womb after 20 weeks of gestation. But then it would have to be on life support for awhile and still may not survive... I don`t see how if a baby can survive outside the womb but have to be on life support that is any different than depending on their mother ? I mean being kept alive by a machine is better than being kept alive by the mother ? Between 4 and 8 weeks the embryo becomes a fetus and has Human eyes, arms, ears, nose, legs, fingers, toes, elbows, and knees. Then after about 16 weeks the sex of the fetus can EASILY be distinguished. So this baby has all of these Human features but it could not survive outside of the Mother...but yet it`s life hasn`t began yet ? Conception is described as the moment the sperm cell and egg cell unite. If nothing is done after conception to stop the birth (abortion)... in 9 months there will be a baby...sounds like conception is when life BEGINS to me...I could be wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted June 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2005 Last night there was a show on National Geographic Channel. For those of you who say life begins with heartbeat, that is [b]21 days[/b] after conception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scales Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 You have a soul when you realize it. Timeframe varies. Life begins at conception. That little Zygote is the begining of the human cycle of life. to those who use the sanctity of life as grounds for their argument, i hope you've never driven a car, or ventured outside in the rain, or swated a mosquito Only man would try to make laws governing a womans body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted June 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 [quote name='The Scales' date='Jun 13 2005, 05:00 AM']You have a soul when you realize it. Timeframe varies. Life begins at conception. That little Zygote is the begining of the human cycle of life. to those who use the sanctity of life as grounds for their argument, i hope you've never driven a car, or ventured outside in the rain, or swated a mosquito [b]Only man would try to make laws governing a womans body.[/b] [right][post="102398"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] I hear this arguement a lot. A baby is IN the woman's body, but that does not mean it is part of the woman's body. It's body is separate and all it's own. Oh, btw, women are much more "pro-life" than men are, on average. I did a survey in college for a Probability and Statistics class. Of the women, who's ages ranged from 18 to 50something, 50% considered themselves pro-life. The men were much more pro-choice, about 2-1. And HUMAN life has sanctity. I would not put the same value on a mosquito or a cow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 [quote name='Jason' date='Jun 13 2005, 09:34 AM']I hear this arguement a lot. A baby is IN the woman's body, but that does not mean it is part of the woman's body. It's body is separate and all it's own. Oh, btw, women are much more "pro-life" than men are, on average. I did a survey in college for a Probability and Statistics class. Of the women, who's ages ranged from 18 to 50something, 50% considered themselves pro-life. The men were much more pro-choice, about 2-1. And HUMAN life has sanctity. I would not put the same value on a mosquito or a cow. [right][post="102429"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] You are correct that the baby is IN the woman's body. But until 20 weeks, it cannot survive without using the womans body. That plays into the discussion, as I believe was mentioned by someone else. Just sayin.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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