|Lucid| Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1320437481' post='1055927'] You are just searching for stuff. He can be both a very good LT and not have the lateral quickness and athleticism of a prototypical LT. Lets just stay with that. [/quote] That's what I was getting at... If yo uare writing a scouting report for Whitworth what would you put down as a weakness? He doesn't have many... Lateral quickness is about the only thing I can think of. That doesn't mean it is so much a weakness that it prevents him from being an elite LT. It just means that out of all his traits, that would be the one that is the weakest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1320437481' post='1055927'] You are just searching for stuff. He can be both a very good LT and not have the lateral quickness and athleticism of a prototypical LT. Lets just stay with that. [/quote] No, you are just committed to the idea that your opinion means more than anyone elses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1320437317' post='1055926'] YES!! Didn't almost every scout say that Dalton would be nothing more than a Game Manager? Didn't almost every scout say Brady would be lucky to be a backup in the NFL when he graduated? The Hardest thing to do is to say that your opinion about something is WRONG, as you should well know. [/quote] So you are the shining example of admitting your opinion was wrong? I just admitted three posts up that I took in the information that others gave me and adjusted my opinion. It's three posts up!!!! Scouts were all over the place on Dalton. The one consistency is that he does not have great arm strength. Whether or not you think that greatly affects his ability is the point for discussion but he clearly does not have prototypical arm strength. The reality is that in Brats offense he might have been not too great, Gruden and the West Coast play to his strengths. In regards to Brady, do you think his scouting report is the same as it was when he was drafted? Lends all the more credibility to Whitworths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1320437651' post='1055929'] That's what I was getting at... If yo uare writing a scouting report for Whitworth what would you put down as a weakness? He doesn't have many... Lateral quickness is about the only thing I can think of. That doesn't mean it is so much a weakness that it prevents him from being an elite LT. It just means that out of all his traits, that would be the one that is the weakest. [/quote] For Comparison Joe Thomas "Thomas is an excellent combination of size, strength and athleticism. He has great instincts and reactions. His technique is strong for such a young player, and he obviously takes his craft seriously. Thomas can get to the second level as a run blocker and is adept at hitting a moving target downfield. Thomas could stand to add more strength. He is a physical lineman that can set the tone in the running game." Jake Long "Long has good balance, foot quickness and agility but isn't special for the left tackle position. He shows the ability to slide his feet and maintain contact with pass-rushers. He shows quick hands to counter and gain leverage. Long is physical in the run game, showing power to dominate his opponent at the point of attack. He can lock on and power block drive the defender at the point of attack. He does a nice job adjusting to moving targets in space and on the second level." D'Brickashaw Ferguson "Ferguson has excellent size, long arms and good athletic skills. He has the ability to adjust and recover. He flashes the ability to lock on and steer defenders. He keeps his feet moving on contact. Ferguson can locate targets on the move and excel on the second level. He can be vulnerable to up-and-under moves. Ferguson struggles at times against bull-rushers but has improved dramatically in this area." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 Nevermind. Obviously he's just really lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1320438138' post='1055936'] Nevermind. Obviously he's just really lucky. [/quote] No. He, as his scouting reports say, and many here have argued, takes incredible angles and is very smart so it helps to cover up his lack of agility. I love HS basketball. Every year I go to the state basketball tournament to watch. There are always a couple games between a team loaded with athletes from Dayton, Toledo, Cincy, Cleveland or Cbus. 2-3 D-1 guys. They are up against a team full of no D-1 guys. The super athletic team often is barely coached at all while the other team compensates for their lack of talent by running crisp plays and having ridiculous fundamentals. Whitworth is the Princeton basketball (Not Cincinnati Princeton because they are often loaded) of LTs in the NFL. Doing a ton with less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1320438138' post='1055936'] Nevermind. Obviously he's just really lucky. [/quote] DEs feel really sorry for him since he's playing out of position and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1320438288' post='1055939'] No. He, as his scouting report say, and many here have argued, takes incredible angles and is very smart so it helps to cover up his lack of agility. [/quote] Dude was a fucking HS tennis champ... I seriously doubt his lateral agility is as bad as you seem to want to make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1320438288' post='1055939'] No. He, as his scouting reports say, and many here have argued, takes incredible angles and is very smart so it helps to cover up his lack of agility. I love HS basketball. Every year I go to the state basketball tournament to watch. There are always a couple games between a team loaded with athletes from Dayton, Toledo, Cincy, Cleveland or Cbus. 2-3 D-1 guys. They are up against a team full of no D-1 guys. The super athletic team often is barely coached at all while the other team compensates for their lack of talent by running crisp plays and having ridiculous fundamentals. Whitworth is the Princeton basketball (Not Cincinnati Princeton because they are often loaded) of LTs in the NFL. Doing a ton with less. [/quote] Funny you should mention basketball ... [quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1319980635' post='1052432'] The best left tackle in football may be Andrew Whitworth. The sixth-year Bengals player does not get the recognition of an elite tackle, but perhaps he should. The website profootballfocus.com, which rates every player’s performance in every game, has Whitworth as the top rated left tackle in the AFC. His position coach Paul Alexander concurs. “If you ask me, he’s the best,” Alexander said. “Technically, he’s superb. He is tough, has strong hands and takes great angles.” Whitworth has allowed three sacks over his last 23 games going back to last year. What’s more, Alexander tells me Whitworth has not been beaten once in practice since the beginning of the season. Alexander said Whitworth is constantly tinkering with his technique, and he has made some recent changes that have paid off. The word on Whitworth coming out of Louisiana State was that he wasn’t the greatest athlete, but that clearly is not true. Turns out he’s a very good golfer and tennis player. A couple of years ago the Bengals held a “Superstars” competition on their team. The non-quarterback who threw the most balls through a hoop? Whitworth. [b]My Sunday Best: Midseason All Pro Offense[/b] Offensive tackle--Andrew Whitworth, Bengals. See my item above in Things I Didn’t Used to Know. [url="http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/NFP-Sunday-Blitz-7197.html"]http://www.nationalf...Blitz-7197.html[/url] [/quote] [url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=62002&pid=1052500&st=175&#entry1052500"]http://forum.go-beng...5[/url] Notice the Dude says "ALL-PRO"? That would be one of the top 2 Tackles in all of Football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1320439725' post='1055952'] Funny you should mention basketball ... [url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=62002&pid=1052500&st=175&#entry1052500"]http://forum.go-beng...5[/url] Notice the Dude says "ALL-PRO"? That would be one of the top 2 Tackles in all of Football. [/quote] Tennis lends some credence but Golf and basketball shooting have 0 lateral skills needed. I am a ridiculous basketball shooter and could not cover Maya Angelou or beat her off the dribble. Just some puff journalism looking for a way to highlight him. I agree that he is in the top probably 5. Long, Thomas and Ferguson first then probably him and Clady. But to tell you the truth I don't know much about the other lineman. ESPNs list, granted this is before the season started. [xml]1 Joe Thomas 93 2 Jake Long 91 3 D'Brickashaw Ferguson 87 4 Ryan Clady 85 Jason Peters 85 6 Jared Gaither 84 Kareem McKenzie 84 8 Andrew Whitworth 82 Doug Free 82 10 Marcus McNeill 81[/xml] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1320439949' post='1055954'] Tennis lends some credence but Golf and basketball shooting have 0 lateral skills needed. I am a ridiculous basketball shooter and could not cover Maya Angelou or beat her off the dribble. [/quote] The fact he is being mentioned by people as Elite, All-Pro and has given up 3 sacks in over a year mean nothing? But whatever. Obvioulsy the dude could start being voted All-Pro and voted into the Hall of Fame and you'd be talking about how he wasn't Elite because he didn't have Elite lateral quickness, or something like that ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTBengalsFan Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 You know what guys - I'm with Weston. I'm completely basing all my opinions on guys from their college scouting reports. Brady really sucks, who cares what everyone else says! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1320440309' post='1055956'] The fact he is being mentioned by people as Elite, All-Pro and has given up 3 sacks in over a year mean nothing? But whatever. Obvioulsy the dude could start being voted All-Pro and voted into the Hall of Fame and you'd be talking about how he wasn't Elite because he didn't have Elite lateral quickness, or something like that ... [/quote] So he is automatically elite because some random guy says he is? Grow up Peter Pan, Count Chocula. Your arguments are all circular. It's confirmation bias. You find evidence that supports an opinion you already have and given more validity and weight then it should logically get. Not to say I don't do the same thing at times. We both have evidence on our side. It is ok for us to have a differing opinion. It's not like there is a right or wrong here.[quote name='CTBengalsFan' timestamp='1320441077' post='1055959'] You know what guys - I'm with Weston. I'm completely basing all my opinions on guys from their college scouting reports. Brady really sucks, who cares what everyone else says! [/quote] Those scouting reports were from this summer. And there was context to each of them being posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1320438479' post='1055943'] Dude was a fucking HS tennis champ... I seriously doubt his lateral agility is as bad as you seem to want to make it. [/quote] He just took all those angles between him and the ball. incredible angles.[quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1320441497' post='1055962'] So he is automatically elite because some random guy says he is? Grow up Peter Pan, Count Chocula. Your arguments are all circular. It's confirmation bias. You find evidence that supports an opinion you already have and given more validity and weight then it should logically get. Not to say I don't do the same thing at times. We both have evidence on our side. It is ok for us to have a differing opinion. It's not like there is a right or wrong here. Those scouting reports were from this summer. And there was context to each of them being posted. [/quote] the context being that they copied the same old shit from the 2004 LSU report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1320441497' post='1055962'] So he is automatically elite because some random guy says he is? Grow up Peter Pan, Count Chocula. Your arguments are all circular. It's confirmation bias. You find evidence that supports an opinion you already have and given more validity and weight then it should logically get. Not to say I don't do the same thing at times. We both have evidence on our side. It is ok for us to have a differing opinion. It's not like there is a right or wrong here. Those scouting reports were from this summer. And there was context to each of them being posted. [/quote] The thing is, you [i]don't[/i] have any evidence.. You have heresay and opinion.. The evidence is what you are ignoring.. His actual performance on the field against the premier pass rushers in this league is the only concrete evidence there is. What is frustrating to people is you are doing exactly what you are accusing OS of doing... Finding some confirmation for your bias and assigning WAY too much significance towards it. To point to scouting reports that fly in the face of real world performance is the epitome of what you describe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 Well, even that is an improvement. Time before last, he just kept repeating his assertion without any evidence at all. Possibly a larger font.[quote name='CTBengalsFan' timestamp='1320441077' post='1055959'] You know what guys - I'm with Weston. I'm completely basing all my opinions on guys from their college scouting reports. Brady really sucks, who cares what everyone else says! [/quote] He has no lateral quickness, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1320441677' post='1055970'] The thing is, you [i]don't[/i] have any evidence.. You have heresay and opinion.. The evidence is what you are ignoring.. His actual performance on the field against the premier pass rushers in this league is the only concrete evidence there is. What is frustrating to people is you are doing exactly what you are accusing OS of doing... Finding some confirmation for your bias and assigning WAY too much significance towards it. To point to scouting reports that fly in the face of real world performance is the epitome of what you describe. [/quote] So what you are telling me is if I use duct tape to connect my bumper to my car or I use the proper material as long as the end product is exactly the same there is no difference in the process that gets you to it. If Micheal Jordan and I both shoot 10 baskets and make seven each. We are equally good shooters even though I shoot underhand. I see your argument and I certainly think it's compelling, but there is just too much grey area. In what you say it's completely black and white. Does the duct tape do its job. Then that's all we need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1320442238' post='1055974'] So what you are telling me is if I use duct tape to connect my bumper to my car or I use the proper material as long as the end product is exactly the same there is no difference in the process that gets you to it. If Micheal Jordan and I both shoot 10 baskets and make seven each. We are equally good shooters even though I shoot underhand. I see your argument and I certainly think it's compelling, but there is just too much grey area. In what you say it's completely black and white. Does the duct tape do its job. Then that's all we need. [/quote] This is an intellectually dishonest response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatcat Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1320425824' post='1055844'] I think Weston gets under peoples skins because he is just one stubborn motherfucker... I rarely see him get rude or deliberately push peoples buttons. I think he just has a style that infuriates certain people, but I honestly don't see him as a troll. He has actually come a long way since his previous persona on this board.. I think he probably could lighten up a bit, and learn to walk away from an argument. But he isn't the only guy around here that could benefit from that lesson. That being said, I think he probably gets too much shit thrown at him.. Just because you think he is incredibly wrong about something is no reason to get personally abusive. Sometimes you have to just let your argument stand on it's merits and let people reading them come to their own conclusion. I think most of the arguments with Michael could benefit from both sides realizing this. [/quote] Yep. Not a bad dude or troll. Stubborn. Yes. [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1320441677' post='1055970'] The thing is, you [i]don't[/i] have any evidence.. You have heresay and opinion.. The evidence is what you are ignoring.. His actual performance on the field against the premier pass rushers in this league is the only concrete evidence there is. What is frustrating to people is you are doing exactly what you are accusing OS of doing... Finding some confirmation for your bias and assigning WAY too much significance towards it. To point to scouting reports that fly in the face of real world performance is the epitome of what you describe. [/quote] All excellent points. Michael has very valid and good points as well. But if it were me I would debate things differently than him but that is just me. I don't think he realizes he has a way about him that brings out a certain response.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 I'm happy the Bengals are 5-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1320443669' post='1055985'] I'm happy the Bengals are 5-2. [/quote] x1000000 Best post ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='Phatcat' timestamp='1320442786' post='1055978'] Yep. Not a bad dude or troll. Stubborn. Yes. All excellent points. Michael has very valid and good points as well. But if it were me I would debate things differently than him but that is just me. I don't think he realizes he has a way about him that brings out a certain response.... [/quote] If he has any evidence besides repeating the same scouting report over and over, has never given it.[quote name='sois' timestamp='1320443669' post='1055985'] I'm happy the Bengals are 5-2. [/quote] Don't change the subject! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1320436737' post='1055919'] The reports on him are consistent from college to now. Lateral quickness is his weakness. Scouts inc. did a scouting report on every single nfl player this year. Its not dated back to college. The knocks on him then were that people doubted that he could play LT because of the lack of quickness. They may no longer doubt he can play LT but the knocks are still the same. Take a look. "Whitworth has excellent size, strength and toughness with average athleticism. He has a great feel for angles and how to gain leverage with proper hand use and body positioning. He has good strength as a run blocker at the point of attack and is able to anchor well versus powerful bull rushers. He lacks great lateral agility and quickness versus quick counter moves." I am not going to say I am some incredible judge of offensive line talent, but the scouting report on him has been consistent for 6 years. I don't think its a good argument but I hear it often in here. Scouts inc. gets paid to evaluate these guys. Do you think that you know more then the people who get paid to scout these guys? [/quote] no i don't, but i will say this. scouts inc. apparently has their collective heads up their asses, because whitworth plain and simple isn't getting beat off the edge. if you think good technique alone is carrying his ass, you're stuck in believing scout inc's assessment and nothing in the world will EVER change your mind. so think that.... but you're wrong...it doesn't work that way. ask yourself this....how in the hell does a 6'7" 340 lb guy whose athleticism is such that it allows him to be a very good tennis player have bad feet and bad instincts? have you ever made a serious effort to play that game? it's brutal! does that make any goddamned sense at all? do you watch him play on sundays, or are you still out there in the garage, or doing whatever? the guy is playing in what's proven to be one of the absolute toughest divisions in the league, year in and year out, and he's doing nothing but throwing shutouts. take the time to listen to what anthony munoz has to say about him sometime instead of your cherished scouts inc. guys say. in our division he doesn't go against prototypical 4-3 RDEs, he goes against the much smaller, quicker, more athletic type athletes that play OLB in a 3-4 defense and they aren't just average ones, they're great ones. two times a year per team he shuts them down and seldom does he get any help. he has a history of owning not only the suggs, fujuta's, and jerome harrisons of this division, but the very best the NFL has to offer when we go out of the division. i'll make one request of you....do something different this sunday. tune in the game and pay attention to what your eyes tell you. he's a fucking vacuum cleaner. you ought to be damned proud that we have a guy that so dominates his position, perhaps the toughest position in the whole game of football aside from QB. i'm quite honestly getting tired of defending the guy arguing this bullshit with you. it's ridiculous. these guys that achieve this level are one in a million and you don't even appreciate it. again, it's ridiculous. whitworth is a freak of nature. he's among the very elite that play that position in the NFL. his hard work and play reward him with that status and nothing you (or they) can say will diminish that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1320448002' post='1056021'] the guy is playing in what's proven to be one of the absolute toughest divisions in the league, year in and year out, and he's doing nothing but throwing shutouts. take the time to listen to what anthony munoz has to say about him sometime, instead of your cherished scouts inc. i'll make one request of you....do something different this sunday. tune in the game and pay attention to what your eyes tell you. he's a fucking vacuum cleaner. you ought to be damned proud that we have a guy that so dominates his position, perhaps the toughest position in the whole game of football aside from QB. i'm quite honestly getting tired of defending the guy arguing this bullshit with you. it's ridiculous. these guys that achieve this level are one in a million and you don't even appreciate it. again, it's ridiculous. whitworth is a freak of nature. he's among the very elite that play that position in the NFL. his hard work and play reward him with that status and nothing you (or they) can say will diminish that. [/quote] The last time someone cited Munoz in one of these arguments, somebody (now, I can't swear it was MWeston), came back with 'What does Munoz know about playing Tackle?' So have your blood pressure meds ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1320442238' post='1055974'] So what you are telling me is if I use duct tape to connect my bumper to my car or I use the proper material as long as the end product is exactly the same there is no difference in the process that gets you to it. If Micheal Jordan and I both shoot 10 baskets and make seven each. We are equally good shooters even though I shoot underhand. I see your argument and I certainly think it's compelling, but there is just too much grey area. In what you say it's completely black and white. Does the duct tape do its job. Then that's all we need. [/quote] that would depend on whether you used that duct tape under a legitimate test, wouldn't it? for example....how would that duct taped bumper hold up on a new york city cab, or in a demolition derby vs. one installed properly? would you make the argument that each system would work with the same effectiveness? you're trying to circumvent the discussion with a bullshit scenario that you and i both know isn't an accurate one. stay on subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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