Things I think re Hill:

The last 2 guys I can remember who were that tall and that fast were Randy Moss and Megatron.
Hill went to Georgia Tech so he's got to be smart. That is a really good school.
He played in a run heavy offense and was asked to block a lot. That is a big plus.
His hands looked great at the combine.
What he has cannot be taught, what he does not have can.

He's not the guy I want most at 21, but he's also a guy I would like. I'd rather trade down a few spots if they can, but I won't complain at all if they take him at 21.

At about 604 210 and can run a 4.36 there aren't many if those guys that I can remember who haven't succeeded in the NFL. There are many WR's that are 604 but without his elite speed and hands. I'll be happy with this guy.

I'd be fine with either. But I really think the Bengals want a deep threat opposite of AJ to open up the middle of the field for Gresham and Shipley and force teams to only have 7 in the box with both safeties deep to guard AJ and a deep threat opposite him.

[quote name='Jason' timestamp='1335193888' post='1120531']
Things I think re Hill:

The last 2 guys I can remember who were that tall and that fast were Randy Moss and Megatron.
Hill went to Georgia Tech so he's got to be smart. That is a really good school.
He played in a run heavy offense and was asked to block a lot. That is a big plus.
His hands looked great at the combine.
What he has cannot be taught, what he does not have can.

He's not the guy I want most at 21, but he's also a guy I would like. I'd rather trade down a few spots if they can, but I won't complain at all if they take him at 21.
[/quote]

These are my feelings on him as well.

I also think that "contribute early" is tough to define. If he can bring us what Chris Henry did as a rookie, that will be a nice contribution. Henry only had around 30 catches, but for a good amount of yards and 6 TDs. If Hill can block well, be a red zone threat who catches at least 5 TDs, catch some deep bombs when he gets the opportunity and keep a 2nd safety deep on his side of the field, that would be "contributing early" even if it doesn't look like it on a stat sheet.

Yep, I think you can't underrate how much Marvin loves blocking WR's. That alone should give him a shine for Hill. He's an unselfish, high-character guy. He's got all of the tools. He's currently training with AJ Green, and Calvin Johnson (two very tall WR's). Chris Collinsworth is on his nutsack. The more and more I think of it the more I think we'd be lucky to have him at 21.

Also, WR is a pretty decent position except for that number two slot, and reinforces the draft-to-your-strength school. Our entire receiving corps, actually. Gresh, Shipley, Hawkins, and a pass-catching RB we'll take in the 3rd or 4th (I'm big on Polk, then Pead right now). Follow the same logic and get a DL (Brockers, or Couples (who can swing from DE/DT like we like) in the first, or Derek Wolfe later (although I'm seeing mocks that have him going even in the 1st now!), or a Mike Martin if he falls to us in the 3rd (reminds me a lot of Geno)... and we're pretty badass.

EDIT: Can you imagine a Pass Defense line that looks like this: Dunlap, Atkins, Couples, MJ with Moch and Lawson stunting? Wowzers.

The one big misfortune is the lack of depth in the Safety class, so I'm hopin the Mays hype is real. Next year we go Safety (Mathieu please) and CB.

I'd rather have floyd.

[quote name='turningpoint' timestamp='1335199954' post='1120574']
I'd rather have floyd.
[/quote]
That would probably be the better comparison for this poll, although it seems pretty unlikely Floyd will be there at 17.

One wrinkle to the Hill discussion, is how does he relate to Andy Dalton's strengths? Dalton doesn't have the best deep ball right now. He's working on it, but...
Also (someone correct me on this) the WCO isn't built on lots of deep stuff. Mostly short and intermediate, no? Just playing devil's advocate on Hill to see what people think...

[quote name='alleycat' timestamp='1335200954' post='1120584']
One wrinkle to the Hill discussion, is how does he relate to Andy Dalton's strengths? Dalton doesn't have the best deep ball right now. He's working on it, but...
Also (someone correct me on this) the WCO isn't built on lots of deep stuff. Mostly short and intermediate, no? Just playing devil's advocate on Hill to see what people think...
[/quote]

A quick slant thrown to someone with Hill's speed can quickly become a "deep pass". And even if Andy's deep ball isn't great (it will get better) just the threat will take a safety out of the box, or possibly away from AJ.

[quote name='Jason' timestamp='1335201164' post='1120586']

A quick slant thrown to someone with Hill's speed can quickly become a "deep pass". And even if Andy's deep ball isn't great (it will get better) just the threat will take a safety out of the box, or possibly away from AJ.
[/quote]


like andre caldwell did with his 4.37 combine speed.

Everyone keeps talking about Hill's 40 time as if he is going to be running a straight line down the field with no one in his way trying to slow him down or knock his fucking head off. A 40 time is the most overrated measurement you can use to evaluate a football player, if you draft a guy because of his 40 time then you will likely draft a bust.

I think it's laughable that people want to take a guy who before the combine was a 3rd round pick at best over a guy who dominated the best conference in CFB for 3 years, all because one guy ran a 4.36 in shorts and the other guy ran a 4.38. If you watch any game tape of the two, it's clearly obvious which one is more pro ready and will be able to contribute earlier in their careers.

You have one of the most dominate recievers ever to play in the SEC, a guy who put up 88 catches, 1,517 yrds, and 8 tds in 2010. Yes he came into the 2011 a bit over weight and under performed, but he still put up better numbers than Hill. Then after the season he loses the extra weight and runs a 4.38 per scouts at his pro day,

Here's a good article on Hill, the comments on the article are the most telling. [url="http://www.fromtherumbleseat.com/2012/3/1/2835040/a-texans-fan-inquiry-about-stephen-hill"]http://www.fromtherumbleseat.com/2012/3/1/2835040/a-texans-fan-inquiry-about-stephen-hill[/url]. According to fans who watched Hill for 3 yrs, he's a physical specimen who struggles with catching easy balls and needs to work on running route trees, route break-offs, zone reads, etc., The last wr we drafted early in the draft who had insane physical tools but didn't have the technical/mental part of the game down(Simpson) took 3 yrs to take the field as a starter. Also the notion that Hill is a brainiac because he went to GT is crazy, he wasn't studying for a degree in mechanial engineering, he left early after a mediocore season, so that should tell you how much Hill values his GT education. I think alot of people are assuming that Hill can do all of the things he's going to have to do in order to not be a bust because they want him to be a guy he hasn't shown he can be. People see him running a 40, then look at his size and speed and start having visions of Randy Moss and Megatron. But this guy wasn't close to the production those guys had in college before they stepped on a NFL field.

Hill is a huge risk that will take atleast 2-3 yrs of development before he's ready to play and contribute on a consistent basis. If you want a big guy with great measurables why not take Cal's Michael Calvin, he's 6'4" and ran a 4.32 in the 40 at his pro day...I know FIRST ROUND PICK!!!! ZOMG HE RAN A 4.32 IN THE 40 AND HE'S 6'4" HES THE NEXT RANDY MOSS/CALVIN JOHNSON/JERRY RICE/ANDRE JOHNSON...MAYBE WE CAN TRADE AJ GREEN FOR MICHAEL CALVIN SO WE CAN DRAFT HILL AND CALVIN AND HAVE TWO 6'4" GUYS WHO RUN FAST BUT THAT'S ABOUT IT.

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1335201731' post='1120592']


like andre caldwell did with his 4.37 combine speed.
[/quote]
THIS!

Caldwell still couldn't get consistent separation from guys in the NFL. All's a fast 40 does is make teams put their fastest cornerback on a guy and run with him with a 6 yard head start down the field. If you can't run routes and get off the line fast, you aren't going to do much in the NFL. Most QB's don't have 4.35 seconds to throw the ball.

Here's a good scouting report on Hill by some GT fans

[quote]
Last month Bengals assistant special teams coach and assistant defensive backs coach (let's just call him an assistant coach), Hue Jackson attended Georgia Tech's Pro Day. Despite being labeled a coach for special teams and the secondary, few people with a working brain are actually buying that Cincinnati's former wide receiver coach (2004-06) isn't applying some influence on the offensive side. Therefore we presume with some certainty that Jackson was at Georgia Tech to check out wide receiver Stephen Hill.

With a need to upgrade wide receiver at some point from now until the regular season opener against the Baltimore Ravens on September 10 (Monday Night Football, baby!), the Bengals could turn their focus on someone like receiver Stephen Hill.

Background on Hill:
Stephen Hill is a home-grown prospect from Miller Grove HS in Lithonia, GA, which is roughly 30 minutes east of Atlanta. He was considered a 3-star prospect and was a part of the 2009 class, Coach Paul Johnson's first recruiting class that he had an entire year to recruit at Tech. He's always been a freak of an athlete -- as a senior in high school, he set the state record in the long jump with a jump of 25 ft, 8.75 in. To put that in context of athletic freakishness, he would have won the ACC track and field championships that year with that leap, and would have placed ninth in the Summer Olympic Games. He put up good stats in high school and has always been generally regarded highly as an athlete.

How did Hill make his presence felt in spite of a run-heavy offense:
When asking about him making his presence felt, it may not be appropriate to use the word ,despite; in the context of the offense's run-heavy nature. The wild-card factor that our offense has in sending receivers to the draft is that in our offense, a receiver must learn how to effectively block. That sounds like a petty skill for a guy to have when playing receiver, but I feel like it's a major bonus when an NFL team is looking to add someone when they can contribute on the outside in the run game. Hill was a very physical, imposing blocker on the outside that contributed to our run game significantly.

The first example I can think of is on this huge run by Orwin Smith. If you watch the video, you'll notice that Smith passes a Tech player and a defender around the 45-yard line. Upon closer inspection, you'll notice that it's Hill, still making his defender miserable 40 yards later. Aside from blocking, Hill was on the receiving end of most of our passing game. When the offense is largely run-oriented, there can't be a defensive focus on the pass, ending up in a lot of single coverage when Hill can use his size to impose his will against the defender. He was a fantastic fit in our offense and can bring a lot to the table to an NFL team.

Strengths and Weaknesses:
For strengths, you may be noticing a pattern here in that he's very athletic. His size, strength, and speed are a combination that's very difficult to defend. It's interesting because watching him run doesn't immediately give the impression of speed, but when you look closer it's just because he's taking really long strides (a really unique running style, but whatever works).

Our fanbase is pretty much in agreement on his one glaring weakness, in that he's less than reliable. He has some great big-play ability and can make some pretty unbelievable catches from time to time. <strong>However, where the fanbase became pretty restless with him was an equal potency for dropping passes that hit him in the gut while he's wide open and almost guaranteed a touchdown (this is also usually followed by him walking off the field with a limp, which is total crap and probably equates more to hurt pride more than an actual injury).

Some people chalk it up to mental mistakes, where he's just not focused enough. I think it would be interesting to see how much it can be attributed to less-than-perfect passes, as our last two QBs (Nesbitt and Washington) have not been passing specialists and rarely got a pass off with a good-looking spiral.

Translation of his combine numbers translate to the football field in college:
I'd say that his combine numbers did translate. He was very fast on the field (again, faster than he looked) with a nice side of strength. One of Coach Johnson's favorite things to do with our passing game is have the QB throw a quick pass as soon as the ball is snapped, and as soon as the WR catches it have him stiff arm the corner and take off down the sideline. Hill was decent at this (Thomas made an art out of it), with long arms and decent strength. However, once he broke down the sideline, there was no catching him more often than not, and if you do catch him he doesn't just go down for anyone.

One other thing that I'd like to see is how his Wonderlic compares to the likes of Justin Blackmon and Alshon Jeffrey. I think it's safe to say that Tech would be considered a better school than Oklahoma State or USC and that our football players are not given a free pass through school, meaning that, as a whole, football players from Tech would likely be considered smarter than players from other schools. However, there was some speculation that part of Hill's motivation for leaving school was that he wasn't really likely to graduate, which could mean he wasn't as smart as his teammates, but could just as easily mean he wasn't a very hard worker and has some motivational issues.

Hill at the next level:
Hill will be an interesting case at the next level. On the Tech end, the fanbase (and coaches, I'm told) were absolutely shocked when we found out that he was going pro. We figured he'd need another year to refine his skills before they were NFL-caliber. However, it looks pretty apparent that he's got all of the physical tools and skills necessary to succeed in the NFL and the only question at this point will be the reliability of his hands.

I think he's a pretty big risk-reward type for teams. I'm hearing that he's being looked at as a potential second-round draft prospect. If he can prove to have reliable hands and actually do what he's paid to do, his athleticism will make him a very dangerous receiver and his blocking ability will be a huge help in the run game. However, if he just can't get his head on straight and catch balls that he should, he'll be a pretty expensive situation-specific guy.

He's not really explosive enough to make his blocking useful as a slot receiver, and nobody can really afford to make a habit out of throwing jump balls down the sidelines. So if he pans out (which really wouldn't surprise me) he'll be a great pickup, but know the risk that your team takes when looking to draft him.[/quote]

Yeah he sounds like a sure fire, can't miss first round pick to me(sarcasim)...Hill will be in over his head at the NFL level, the speed of game plus his inexperience doing anything besides blocking and running straight will not make it easy for him to have success early in his career.

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1335201731' post='1120592']


like andre caldwell did with his 4.37 combine speed.
[/quote]

Caldwell made a few big plays while he was here. But his hands were mediocre, and this team kept switching him around between outside and the slot. He never got a chance to settle into a role.

[quote name='Jason' timestamp='1335201164' post='1120586']

A quick slant thrown to someone with Hill's speed can quickly become a "deep pass". And even if Andy's deep ball isn't great (it will get better) just the threat will take a safety out of the box, or possibly away from AJ.
[/quote]

Why not just offer a tender to Wallace then?

[quote name='Jason' timestamp='1335203336' post='1120606']

Caldwell made a few big plays while he was here. But his hands were mediocre, and this team kept switching him around between outside and the slot. He never got a chance to settle into a role.
[/quote]

You realize one of the big knocks on Hill is that he drops passes he should catch; like wide the fuck open, nobody but you and your thoughts open. This guy is far from a slam dunk, he's fast and can jump far, that doesn't mean he knows how to play wr in the NFL.

[quote name='turningpoint' timestamp='1335203433' post='1120607']

Why not just offer a tender to Wallace then?
[/quote]


to me at least, because you don't give a #2 WR $9 million/yr.

Hill....High character guy .

Jeffrey .... smells like a bust to me .

I'll vote Hill.

anyone who seriously wants to take hill in the 1st round should spend the time and read the responses from those georgia tech fans (that pattermaster provided). when the majority of fans of your home program can't get jacked up about you, there's something to be concerned about! for that reason, i'll repeat the link and ask you to take the time to read through these responses.

http://www.fromtherumbleseat.com/2012/3/1/2835040/a-texans-fan-inquiry-about-stephen-hill

[quote name='Patmo' timestamp='1335204992' post='1120616']
Hill....High character guy .

Jeffrey .... smells like a bust to me .

I'll vote Hill.
[/quote]


How does Jeffery smell like a bust, I would really like to understand why you said that?

If Jeffery smells like a bust, what does Hill smell like? Hint: I think I stepped in some this weekend at the park, damn lazy dog owners!!!

I think spending a 1st Rd pick on a #2 WR is pretty silly. Spending it on a project #2 WR is even more silly when you consider the holes this team has to fill aside from the WR position.

That said, if I had to make a choice, I'd go for Hill as there seems to be much more potential. Jefferey seems like he succeeded due to his superior athleticism and size as opposed to running crisp, clean routes or beating his man deep. His play on the field did not show a 4.4 40-yd dash WR IMO. He's not a fast twitch guy.

I voted for Hill,but I am hoping they get Michael Floyd at 17.Then take Kirkpatrick at 21,assuming Gilmore will be gone by then.Then grab a guard in rnd 2 or 3.I used to want Decastro,but now would rather have someone that can help put points on the board.

[quote name='Patmo' timestamp='1335204992' post='1120616']

.... smells like a bust to me .

[/quote]

That's what they said about Jerome Simpson.

Hill.. Hands down.

This does not include anything on Hill, but thought this was interesting on some of the receivers in the draft, including Jeffery.

From Greg Cosell:

[quote]What about Alshon Jeffery of South Carolina? He will be a polarizing player for many teams. Given his measurements — 6-foot-3, 216 pounds — he fits the Colston profile. Jeffery’s best attributes are his size and his hands. He has very strong hands with a wide catching radius. He has shown the ability to make contested catches both at the intermediate and deeper levels. Jeffery is a great example of a wide receiver whose 40-yard-dash time is irrelevant. He’s not vertically explosive. At his best, he’s a long strider with some build-up speed. He will not tilt coverage (i.e. force a safety to play over the top) or dictate double teams. The question then becomes: How is he best utilized in the NFL? Can he line up outside and win? Is he ultimately a Colston-type inside receiver who can effectively use his big body to maximum advantage against nickel backs, linebackers and safeties? The answer to that question will determine where he is drafted.
Another receiver who fits this conceptual template is Mohamed Sanu. Sanu is 6-1 1/2 and 211 pounds. He often played out of the slot at Rutgers, so he has meaningful experience in that role. He was outstanding between the numbers, consistently making difficult catches in traffic. Sanu’s 40 time is also not important to the evaluation process. He’s a short-to-intermediate route runner who relies more on working in confined areas where subtle moves and change of direction are at a premium. Sanu is a smoother, naturally quicker athlete than Jeffery. If the consensus is Jeffery cannot align outside and win, then Sanu is a more valuable and functional NFL prospect. At this point, Sanu is a more effective slot receiver.
[indent=1]


[size=4][color=#47341C]A big wide receiver who I believe can align on the outside and run the complete route tree is LSU’s Rueben Randle (6-3, 210). The more games I watch, the more I like Randle. He is smooth and athletic, with better acceleration off the ball than either Jeffery or Sanu. In some ways, he reminds me of the New York Giants’ Hakeem Nicks, who was not drafted until the 29th pick in the first round in 2009. Nicks was the fifth wide receiver selected that year (after Darrius Heyward-Bey, Michael Crabtree, Jeremy Maclin and Percy Harvin), but he’s clearly been the most productive of the bunch. Where Nicks has been very effective — and I project Randle playing a similar role — is at “x iso”, the single receiver to one side of the formation. When you’re aligned at “x,” you must be able to win versus man coverage.[/color][/size]

[size=4][color=#47341C]The larger point is this: With the increased emphasis on multiplicity of formations and personnel utilization, the framework for evaluating wide receivers has been amended — and expanded. We will see in a few weeks how that impacts where players like Randle, Sanu and Jeffery are chosen in the 2012 NFL Draft.[/color][/size]
[size=4][color=#47341C][url="http://nflfilms.nfl.com/2012/04/09/cosell-talks-the-wide-receiver-transformation/"]http://nflfilms.nfl....transformation/[/url][/color][/size]

[color=#47341C][size=1][/quote][/size][/color]

[size=4][color=#47341C]More Cosell on Jeffery:[/color][/size]



[color=#47341C][size=1][quote][/size][/color]
[color=#47341C][size=1][b][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]Greg Cosell[/url][/b][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"] [/url][size=4][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]‏[/url][/size][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"] [/url][color=#999999][size=3][s][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]@[/url][/s][b][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]gregcosell[/url][/b][/size][/color][/size][/color]

[color=#47341C][size=1][size=4]Always tough for me to say where a player should be drafted. I don't see Jeffery as an overall 1st rd talent but each draft is own entity.[/size][/size][/color]





[color=#47341C][size=1][size=4][b][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]Greg Cosell[/url][/b][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"] [/url][size=4][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]‏[/url][/size][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"] [/url][color=#999999][size=3][s][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]@[/url][/s][b][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]gregcosell[/url][/b][/size][/color][/size][/size][/color]

[color=#47341C][size=1][size=4][size=4]Overall Jeffery is a stright line long strider with some build up speed who lacks lateral quicks + agility. A scheme + QB specific WR.[/size][/size][/size][/color]


[color=#47341C][size=1][size=4][size=4][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"][b]Greg Cosell[/b] [size=4]‏[/size] [color=#999999][size=3][s]@[/s][b]gregcosell[/b][/size][/color][/url][/size][/size][/size][/color]
[color=#47341C][size=1][size=4][size=4]WR Jeffery best traits size + hands. Makes contested catches. Not laterally quick. Not vertically explosive but long strides eat up ground.[/quote][/size][/size][/size][/color]

[color=#47341C][size=1][size=4][size=4]Cosell on other WRs:[/size][/size][/size][/color]


[color=#47341C][size=1][size=4][size=4][quote][b][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]Greg Cosell[/url][/b][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"] [/url][size=4][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]‏[/url][/size][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"] [/url][color=#999999][size=3][s][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]@[/url][/s][b][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]gregcosell[/url][/b][/size][/color][/size][/size][/size][/color]

WR Jenkins interesting prospect. Ability to play outside + in slot. Both short area quicks + vertical speed, especially with free access.



[color=#47341C][size=1][size=4][size=4][b]Gr[url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]eg Cosell[/url][/b][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"] [/url][size=4][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]‏[/url][/size][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"] [/url][color=#999999][size=3][s][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]@[/url][/s][b][url="https://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell"]gregcosell[/url][/b][/size][/color][/size][/size][/size][/color]

[color=#47341C][size=1][size=4][size=4][size=4]Major difference re: WR between 40 times + play speed. Veyr few NFL WR run by CB based on pure speed. Fitz not fast yet can get vertical.[/size][/size][/size][/size][/color]



[color=#47341C][size=1][size=4][size=4][size=4]40 most over-hyped + irrelevant number in eval process. Game not played like that. Like Floyd on film but not a burner no matter what 40 is.[/size][/size][/size][/size][/color]




[color=#47341C][size=1][size=4][size=4][size=4]Interesting many compare Blackmon to Boldin. Boldin ran 4.72 40. If you believe Boldin was big time WR then you're saying 40 irrelevant.[/size][/size][/size][/size][/color]








[color=#47341C][size=1][size=4][size=4][size=4][/quote][/size][/size][/size][/size][/color]


[/indent]