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Obamacare upheld


Jamie_B

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[quote name='gatorclaws' timestamp='1340978064' post='1137210']
I thought I read this plan only effects about 6% of people or somethin like that. If that's all that's going to be added to the system, I'm not sure that's enough to cover the extra costs. Either way, it was the right thing to do.
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I also read that the "tax" is effectively 1%, if we cant afford that...
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1340980351' post='1137216']
[url="http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/06/the-myth-that-entitlements-ruin-countries-busted-in-1-little-graph/259056/"]The Myth That Entitlements Ruin Countries, Busted in 1 Little Graph[/url]
[/quote]

To my knowledge in all of history what a empire did for its own people was never the fall of that empire, it was the attempted expansion beyond capabilities that did that.
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[quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1340971750' post='1137179']
It will be cheaper for people to just pay the penalty for not getting insurance than to buy the insurance, so guess who picks up the difference? If you want to penalize those who refuse to take responsibility for themselves, than make it a severe penalty.
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I just read the penalty does in fact go up every year (1% in 2014, 2% in 2015, 2.5% in 2015, etc.. Eventually it will be enough to get people to just buy insurance.
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[quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1340971750' post='1137179']
It will be cheaper for people to just pay the penalty for not getting insurance than to buy the insurance, [b]so guess who picks up the difference?[/b] If you want to penalize those who refuse to take responsibility for themselves, than make it a severe penalty.
[/quote]

The same people who pick up the difference now when those people who chose not to get insurance get hurt/sick: tax payers. This at least gives people an opportunity to be responsible and get insurance that they otherwise couldn't afford.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1340976334' post='1137204']
Oh and by the way...

[img]http://cdn1.alexanderhiggins.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/TAX-CUTS-DEBT.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

I'm with you all the way that wars generate debt...

But how the HELL does a tax cut generate debt??? It doesn't. Spending generates debt.
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1340984843' post='1137229']
I'm with you all the way that wars generate debt...

But how the HELL does a tax cut generate debt??? It doesn't. Spending generates debt.
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Tax cuts generate debt when they arent paying for the services we need and use.

We've had 11 years of Bush tax cuts, if they created jobs you'd think we'd be swimming in jobs by now no?

[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1340986838' post='1137234']
Fuck it... I'll hopefully be dead when we have all these chickens come to roost. Just give me free health care and add it to the credit card... I won't be paying it anyway....
[/quote]

Did you jump up and down stomping your feet when throwing this tantrum?
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If I had a ball, i'd take it a go home and tell you guys to fuck off... lol

I joke here and in my last post, but I believe creating a bigger gov't and more social programs will lead to less freedom, more debt, and will wither away our economy... This shouldn't surprise anyone if they know my politics... I don't steer to far from this when we are talking fiscal policy.

Insurance should go in the exact opposite direction. I should not need to go through my employer to get insurance. I should be able to save my own money and pay for my own doctors expenses and allow it to rollover year by year, through an HSA... If they would allow this (without going through employer) I would agree that a high deductible public insurance policy could work. The difference here is we still have a choice and we still can dictate the free market by saying 'these guys are overpriced' or 'I would recommend this doctor for x, y, and z'... If there is no consumer choice, then we are destined to fail like usps or EVERY OTHER gov't ran business that has ever been created.
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[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1340990258' post='1137246']
If I had a ball, i'd take it a go home and tell you guys to fuck off... lol

I joke here and in my last post, but I creating a bigger gov't will lead to less freedom, more debt, and will wither away our economy... This shouldn't surprise anyone if they know my politics... I don't steer to far from this when we are talking fiscal policy.
[/quote]

The size of government is irrelevant to freedom, governments large or small can impede on freedom.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1340990399' post='1137249']
The size of government is irrelevant to freedom, governments large or small can impede on freedom.
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Moving towards socialized medicine will impede on our freedom... Do you disagree with this?
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[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1340990631' post='1137251']
Moving towards socialized medicine will impede on our freedom... Do you disagree with this?
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Absolutely.

Especially when you consider we were already paying for everyone who vistis an ER despite their ability to pay anyway, meaning we were already socialist. Are you of the "let them die" crowd? Now were just trying to make it more cost effective, which is something you as a fiscal conservative should be happy about.


edit: Oh and by the way, this system as it stands is far more fascist than socialist, which is entirely on the other end of the political spectrum.
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Why do you try to put people into baskets that are easy to criticze man? It is much more complicated than do this and it fixes everything... and i'm also not an economist but I think that we tackle the illegial immigrants or people without insurance in a different route.

I am not happy about this because it isn't cost effective. I want to be doing the negotiating with hospitals and doctors... Not government and not insurance companies... Give us the ability to make those decisions, inform people how to do it, and the prices will come down.

As far as people with no insurance, right now the legal residence and legal immigrants pay for everything through taxes through payroll... I think we should do taxes through sales tax because then no matter legal or not legal, if you want to buy something you will be paying for it. And that means everyone is paying taxes, not just people following the law. This would increase revenue (if done right) because it would expand the amount of people paying. It would also cut out the loopholes that the rich take advantage of. I think in this plan, you would have to account for poverty so there would have to be some sort of rebate or some way to flag people in that situation to not have to pay as high of taxes. Very complicated for sure, but it would go a long way in solving tax issues.
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[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1340991630' post='1137255']
Why do you try to put people into baskets that are easy to criticze man? It is much more complicated than do this and it fixes everything... and i'm also not an economist but I think that we tackle the illegial immigrants or people without insurance in a different route.

I am not happy about this because it isn't cost effective. I want to be doing the negotiating with hospitals and doctors... Not government and not insurance companies... Give us the ability to make those decisions, inform people how to do it, and the prices will come down.

As far as people with no insurance, right now the legal residence and legal immigrants pay for everything through taxes through payroll... I think we should do taxes through sales tax because then no matter legal or not legal, if you want to buy something you will be paying for it. And that means everyone is paying taxes, not just people following the law. This would increase revenue (if done right) because it would expand the amount of people paying. It would also cut out the loopholes that the rich take advantage of. I think in this plan, you would have to account for poverty so there would have to be some sort of rebate or some way to flag people in that situation to not have to pay as high of taxes. Very complicated for sure, but it would go a long way in solving tax issues.
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Calm down, I didnt put you in any basket, I asked if you were part of the let them die crowd, it was a question, not an appointment.

uhm, I didnt bring up illegal immigration, why did you?

Isnt cost effective? Rick I posted something from Forbes, which isnt exactly liberal, that says otherwise.

People who dont have insurance dont pay for it through payroll taxes, they arent paying for it at all, that's the point. Both of our premiums go up to cover their costs. I actually would prefer a system that does this through taxes rather than one that is basically a bailout of insurance companies.

A national sales tax is an entirely different issue, but I would argue that it wouldnt increase revenue so much as it would drive down consumption which would drive down jobs.
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1340974312' post='1137188']
[url="http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/2010/february/23/gop-1993-health-reform-bill.aspx"]Reality Check[/url]...or...just how far the political spectrum has traveled in 20 years.
[/quote]

reading stuff like this makes it really hard to take anything either side says seriously,,,,and quite honestly, the overwhelming bullshit makes it hard give a fuck about anything thats going on anymore
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Oh as far as the illegals argument, it get's Politifact's "pants on fire"

[url="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/30/chain-email/no-free-health-care-illegal-immigrants-health-bill/"]http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/30/chain-email/no-free-health-care-illegal-immigrants-health-bill/[/url]




[quote]
[b] No free health care for illegal immigrants in the health bill[/b]

[img]http://static.politifact.com.s3.amazonaws.com/rulings%2Ftom-pantsonfire.gif[/img]

[color=#000000][font=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(240, 240, 240)]
It may be the longest chain e-mail we've ever received. A page-by-page analysis of the House health care bill argues that reform will end the health care system as we know it: "Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed! ... Page 42: The 'Health Choices Commissioner' will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. ... Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free health care services."[/background][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(240, 240, 240)]
Most of the e-mail's claims are wrong, and you can read our [url="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/jul/30/e-mail-analysis-health-bill-needs-check-/"]extended analysis [/url]to find out why.[/background][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(240, 240, 240)]
One of its most bizarre claims is the one about free health care for noncitizens, "illegal or not."[/background][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(240, 240, 240)]
We read the bill and its legislative summary, and could find nothing about free health care for anyone, much less noncitizens.[/background][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(240, 240, 240)]
To confirm our examination, we turned to Jennifer Tolbert, an independent health care analyst at the Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonpartisan foundation that studies health care reform. Tolbert has read and analyzed all the major health proposals, including those of the Republicans, and the foundation provides [url="http://www.kff.org/healthreform/sidebyside.cfm"]point-by-point analyses [/url]of the plans on its Web site.[/background][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(240, 240, 240)]
"No one's provided with free health care. That's ridiculous," she said.[/background][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(240, 240, 240)]
Page 50, which the e-mail references, is part of Section 152, which includes a generic nondiscrimination clause saying that insurers may not discriminate with regard to "personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services."[/background][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(240, 240, 240)]
The section says nothing about "non-US citizens" or immigrants, legal or otherwise. In fact, the legislation specifically states that "undocumented aliens" will not be eligible for credits to help them buy health insurance, in Section 246 on page 143.[/background][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(240, 240, 240)]
The bottom line here is the e-mail is making things up. The bill does not say anything close to "All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free health care services." We rate this chain e-mail statement Pants on Fire![/background][/size][/font][/color]

[/quote]
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Who is the majority of people that don't have insurance in this country? That is why I brought up illegal immigration. The others that don't (those under poverty level), I made an exception when explaining what I think should be done and said they should receive some sort of rebate.

In case you don't know, I am actually pretty liberal on immigration. Rounding up illegals and deporting would bring our country to our knees almost instantly imo.
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[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1340995284' post='1137263']
Who is the majority of people that don't have insurance in this country? That is why I brought up illegal immigration. The others that don't (those under poverty level), I made an exception when explaining what I think should be done and said they should receive some sort of rebate.

In case you don't know, I am actually pretty liberal on immigration. Rounding up illegals and deporting would bring our country to our knees almost instantly imo.
[/quote]

See above post. This bill doesnt pay for the undocumented.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1340995528' post='1137264']
See above post. This bill doesnt pay for the undocumented.
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Then this bill sends people away if they don't have insurance? Sorry, I dont have time to read the whole article while at work... So if an illegial comes into the hospital in dire need of service, what happens?
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[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1340995707' post='1137266']
Then this bill sends people away if they don't have insurance? Sorry, I dont have time to read the whole article while at work... So if an illegial comes into the hospital in dire need of service, what happens?
[/quote]

Not sure, I'd imagine the same thing that happens now. It gets done and our premiums go up because of it.
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[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1340996196' post='1137268']
[b]So this bill doesn't even address one of the biggest problems with health care? [/b]So technically your right, this bill doesn't pay for undocumented... It totally ignores the problem. I don't see how this is a good thing.
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this bill doesn't do much to address several of the biggest problems in health care....like, for instance, the cost of health care.

But it does do some good things and "not fixing everything i think is wrong" isnt a good enough reason to throw out a bunch of good shit.

Hopefully this opens the door for actual progress
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[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1340996196' post='1137268']
So this bill doesn't even address one of the biggest problems with health care? So technically your right, this bill doesn't pay for undocumented... It totally ignores the problem. I don't see how this is a good thing.
[/quote]

Politically that isnt something that would ever have gotten threw, we both know that.
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[quote name='mullichicken25' timestamp='1340996856' post='1137269']
this bill doesn't do much to address several of the biggest problems in health care....like, for instance, the cost of health care.

[color=#ff0000]But it does do some good things and "not fixing everything i think is wrong" isnt a good enough reason to throw out a bunch of good shit.[/color]

Hopefully this opens the door for actual progress
[/quote]

This. I dont care for the bill simply because it is a bailout of insurance companies and not a real public option. But it does do the following which I am happy about.

[img]https://upworthy-production.s3.amazonaws.com/nugget/4fec76b9c7d7ae0003005166/attachments/10_things_you_now_get_with_obamacare.jpg[/img]
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