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Obamacare upheld


Jamie_B

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Does any one have any idea when this Obamacare will go in effect? Cause number 3 is big for me on the list Jamie posted. I had cancer 4 years ago and even though I am completely healthy now, insurance companies really screw me over because of that.
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[quote name='BigDawgBengal' timestamp='1340998183' post='1137273']
Does any one have any idea when this Obamacare will go in effect? Cause number 3 is big for me on the list Jamie posted. I had cancer 5 years ago and even though I am completely healthy now, insurance companies really screw me over because of that.
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Some of it already is, I believe but dont quote me on this, that is one of them. I think the mandate part of it doesnt take effect till 2014. I would consult a professional about it.
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[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1340990631' post='1137251']
Moving towards socialized medicine will impede on our freedom... Do you disagree with this?
[/quote]

I have cancer and hate my job. Under this plan I can now leave said job, be covered in between jobs and have the freedom to move to any city in the entire country.

If this impedes freedom its only the freedom to be a complete asshole non patriot to the USA and not due your part as a citizen and pay for health care. I have never understood how conservatives preach patriotism and love for 'Merica....and then have a ridiculously narrow view of who gets to be in that club. "I love America but if saving your life hurts my standard of living then that's just too much."
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I think there are many good things in the bill... Most of which don't cost money. For instance, forcing insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions...

My argument is mainly based on HSA (private = puts the negotiating power in consumers) vs. socialized medicine... I know this isn't a socalized health care system so please people don't go that route with any retorts. But what it does do is move us more towards that direction. HSA and a public high deductable system that covers preventative care is the way i'd like our country to move.

I am not just saying 'scrap this piece of shit' I am giving other ideas that do fit my personal politics and feelings. There are GREAT things in this bill.

I have had a HSA for about 5 years now and would never go back to the standard plan.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1340997083' post='1137270']
Politically that isnt something that would ever have gotten threw, we both know that.
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If we are trying to fix a problem, why ignore the biggest problem though? I know what you are saying, but in that case we need politians with bigger balls that actually care about the country instead of reelection.
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[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1341001500' post='1137286']
If we are trying to fix a problem, why ignore the biggest problem though? I know what you are saying, but in that case we need politians with bigger balls that actually care about the country instead of reelection.
[/quote]

You have no idea how much I agree with this statement.
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[url="http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/06/29/obamacare-as-corportists-united/"]One take on the decision.[/url] I post the link because it also bears on other topics in recent discussion in this forum.

Salient:
[quote][size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000]With this bizarre twisting of words, the Supreme Court has revealed the nature of 21st century American political thought. Those who make, interpret and enforce the laws no longer lie on the ‘left-right’ political continuum. Instead, they are in effect at ‘right angles’ to that continuum. The ideology that drives the Supreme Court, the political administration and the Congress is not Conservative or Liberal but can best be described as “Corporatist.” This is the ideology that affirms that “corporations are citizens, my friends.” it is the ideology that drove the Roberts Court to the odious Citizens United decision. it is the ideology behind a bailout for banks that are ‘too big to fail.’ And it is the ideology that allows Congress to pass a law like the ACA that is essentially written by a favored industry. The Corporatist ideology allows the Supreme Court to uphold the ACA despite the obvious and glaring consequence: forcing someone to buy health insurance is like forcing someone to buy a used Rambler — it’s a shoddy product at an inflated price, but you must pay a tax or swallow your anger and buy it from the smirking dealer down the street.[/color][/font][/size][/quote]
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[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1340990258' post='1137246']
If I had a ball, i'd take it a go home and tell you guys to fuck off... lol

I joke here and in my last post, but I believe creating a bigger gov't and more social programs will lead to less freedom, more debt, and will wither away our economy... This shouldn't surprise anyone if they know my politics... I don't steer to far from this when we are talking fiscal policy.

Insurance should go in the exact opposite direction. I should not need to go through my employer to get insurance. [b]I should be able to save my own money and pay for my own doctors expenses and allow it to rollover year by year, through an HSA[/b]... If they would allow this (without going through employer) I would agree that a high deductible public insurance policy could work. The difference here is we still have a choice and we still can dictate the free market by saying 'these guys are overpriced' or 'I would recommend this doctor for x, y, and z'... If there is no consumer choice, then we are destined to fail like usps or EVERY OTHER gov't ran business that has ever been created.
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This is what rational people think. However, what part of life tells you that your fellow citizens have this same coherent thought process? It's sad we have to force people to take care of their own affairs. Lord knows they don't do it on their own. For example, what % of people only have their SS as savings? It's not 0% unfortunately.

Can't keep going under the same rules. Citizens were given the last 200+ years to get their shit together in USA and they still walk around with no insurance, get hurt and then run to the emergency room. It's not the source of all of the mess (vote for me in 2016 and I'll fix it), but this behaviour isn't helping.

It's either force them to take their medicine or deny them aid and allow them to just get sick and die. I don't like letting people just rot away, like shitty India. However, I'm also not a caring enough soul to go out and actually get my hands dirty and help people.

Fuck that. I can meet in the middle and give the government money to go govern some shit and help out people because I don't want to do it myself. And I'm fine with that.
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1341014271' post='1137307']
[url="http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/06/29/why-the-obamacare-ruling-was-a-victory-for-the-corporate-right/"]Here's another piece from CounterPunch with a different argument, but along the same lines.[/url]
[/quote]

Wow.
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1341014271' post='1137307']
[url="http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/06/29/why-the-obamacare-ruling-was-a-victory-for-the-corporate-right/"]Here's another piece from CounterPunch with a different argument, but along the same lines.[/url]
[/quote]

yeah the commerce clause stuff has me concern too
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[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1340989576' post='1137242']
Tax cuts generate debt when they arent paying for the services we need and use.

We've had 11 years of Bush tax cuts, if they created jobs you'd think we'd be swimming in jobs by now no?
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No... the "services", whatever those are, generate debt.

Tax cuts have never, and will never, generate debt. It is impossible for the tax cut to generate debt. Come on Jamie - you are better than this. And, we're not even talking jobs at this point, we're just talking national debt. And, services / spending generate debt (like the war spending).
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1341230012' post='1137500']
No... the "services", whatever those are, generate debt.

Tax cuts have never, and will never, generate debt. It is impossible for the tax cut to generate debt. Come on Jamie - you are better than this. And, we're not even talking jobs at this point, we're just talking national debt. And, services / spending generate debt (like the war spending).
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And guess what the services we need are always the things that get cut when you guys get your hands on them arent they? I mean hey look at Wisconsin, cops and teachers are asked to take on the burden for corporate idealogues.

But hey tax cuts certainly create jobs, I mean the 11 years we've had these Bush tax cuts we are certainly swimming in jobs huh?
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[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1341231284' post='1137502']
And guess what the services we need are always the things that get cut when you guys get your hands on them arent they? I mean hey look at Wisconsin, cops and teachers are asked to take on the burden for corporate idealogues.

But hey tax cuts certainly create jobs, I mean the 11 years we've had these Bush tax cuts we are certainly swimming in jobs huh?
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What you are you talking about "you guys"??? I don't care for either party...

And, again. You threw a graph up reflecting the national debt would be 50% made up by wars costs and tax cuts. It had nothing to do with jobs. My simple point being that tax cuts don't generate debt. And, now we've evolved from some stupid graph you threw up to "Bush's tax cuts for 11 years, jobs, jobs, jobs"... What are you talking about? You posted the graph, not me.

As our government stands RIGHT NOW, we're not sustainable. Something will have to give - either more taxes, less payouts, or we'll end being the #1 superpower at some point. We'll be choked by too much debt to do otherwise.
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1341232053' post='1137508']
What you are you talking about "you guys"??? I don't care for either party...

And, again. You threw a graph up reflecting the national debt would be 50% made up by wars costs and tax cuts. It had nothing to do with jobs. My simple point being that tax cuts don't generate debt. And, now we've evolved from some stupid graph you threw up to "Bush's tax cuts for 11 years, jobs, jobs, jobs"... What are you talking about? You posted the graph, not me.

As our government stands RIGHT NOW, we're not sustainable. Something will have to give - either more taxes, less payouts, or we'll end being the #1 superpower at some point. We'll be choked by too much debt to do otherwise.
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If not offset by spending cuts yes tax cuts do add to the debt, that's basic math.

Over the long term we will, but refer to my post [url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=64722&#entry1136565"]here[/url] now is not the time to make cuts, cuts should be made when the other parts of the GDP formula I'm talking about in this post are doing well. I'm not against cuts, I'm against them during a downturn, I'm for them during the upswing. There is an important reason why in that post.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1341232311' post='1137511']
If not offset by spending cuts yes tax cuts do add to the debt, that's basic math.

Over the long term we will, but refer to my post [url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=64722&#entry1136565"]here[/url] now is not the time to make cuts, cuts should be made when the other parts of the GDP formula I'm talking about in this post are doing well. I'm not against cuts, I'm against them during a downturn, I'm for them during the upswing. There is an important reason why in that post.
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Basic math is spending generates debt... tax cuts don't. Get to basic math and it is that simple. The tax cut doesn't generate debt, period. The spending generates it.

I'm not smart enough (as an economist) to act like I know the answer to what ails this country presently... what I do know is that, fundamentally, spending more than we take in over the long haul is not sustainable. I understand you say don't do that right now... but, when? You say "later"... but it hasn't happened yet. 1 time in the last 37 years our national debt has reduced... EVERY other year it has increased. We're to the point where we take a smaller percentage increase as a win now. That is how jaded we are. Even if we did short term "investment" as you like to call it when will we actually have somebody, or some party, willing to bite the bullet and actually handle debt management and string together several years of -% years? I don't see it...
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1341233194' post='1137516']
Basic math is spending generates debt... tax cuts don't. Get to basic math and it is that simple. The tax cut doesn't generate debt, period. The spending generates it.

I'm not smart enough (as an economist) to act like I know the answer to what ails this country presently... what I do know is that, fundamentally, spending more than we take in over the long haul is not sustainable. I understand you say don't do that right now... but, when? You say "later"... but it hasn't happened yet. 1 time in the last 37 years our national debt has reduced... EVERY other year it has increased. We're to the point where we take a smaller percentage increase as a win now. That is how jaded we are. Even if we did short term "investment" as you like to call it when will we actually have somebody, or some party, willing to bite the bullet and actually handle debt management and string together several years of -% years? I don't see it...
[/quote]

When you have a cut in revenue and dont offset it by a cut in spending, it generates debt. So yes the tax cut does generate debit if it is not offset by a spending cut. But lets not even talk about Reagan's "starve the beast" ideals and the notion that tax cuts are done on pupose not to create jobs, but to cut social programs that the poor depend on.

You do it when the other areas of the GDP formula are doing well, not when they are doing bad. Austerity, which I think you are proposing, is why Europe is suffering right now.

See to me what ails this economy right now is the same thing that did during the depression, and it is my belief that the only way out of it is to do what we did then. History is repeating itself and we arent using the lessons of the past.
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You can't look at just spending or just revenue to see what creates debt. It's the relation of the two. The debt is created not by just spending, but by spending more than you take in. There's two ways that can happen.

1) increase spending
2) decrease revenue

Increasing spending while not increasing revenue creates debt, likewise decreasing revenue while not decreasing spending creates debt.

I agree a tax cut creates debt if there isn't a plan to either replace that revenue or decrease spending.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1341233997' post='1137518']
When you have a cut in revenue and dont offset it by a cut in spending, it generates debt. So yes the tax cut does generate debit if it is not offset by a spending cut. But lets not even talk about Reagan's "starve the beast" ideals and the notion that tax cuts are done on pupose not to create jobs, but to cut social programs that the poor depend on.

[b]You do it when the other areas of the GDP formula are doing well, not when they are doing bad[/b]. Austerity, which I think you are proposing, is why Europe is suffering right now.

See to me what ails this economy right now is the same thing that did during the depression, and it is my belief that the only way out of it is to do what we did then. History is repeating itself and we arent using the lessons of the past.
[/quote]

Our politicians, over the last 37 years at least, have shown they can't truly cut spending enough to pay down national debt. What makes you confident down the line they would now, particularly after they increase spending further in the short term?
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1341237242' post='1137526']
Our politicians, over the last 37 years at least, have shown they can't truly cut spending enough to pay down national debt. What makes you confident down the line they would now, particularly after they increase spending further in the short term?
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Vol taxes are as low as they have been since 1958, they havent shown they are willing to raise them to generate revenue either.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1341237382' post='1137527']
Vol taxes are as low as they have been since 1958, they havent shown they are willing to raise them to generate revenue either.
[/quote]
Agreed...

So, you've agreed with me that year after year spending more than we take in is unsustainable. We've done that the last 36 of 37 years.
We've agreed that they're not willing to raise taxes.

Soooo.... long term, how do we start paying down the national debt? The actual debt.
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1341237995' post='1137531']
Agreed...

So, you've agreed with me that year after year spending more than we take in is unsustainable. We've done that the last 36 of 37 years.
We've agreed that they're not willing to raise taxes.

Soooo.... long term, how do we start paying down the national debt? The actual debt.
[/quote]

We both raise taxes and cut unnecessary spending. Now who we raise taxes on can what we cut spending on is the question. I would suggest ending wars and equaling the tax percentage the rich pay compared to everyone else as the way to go.

But that's long term, in the short term I would suggest we start investing in infrastructure and education.
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