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14 dead, 50 injured by lone gunman in Batman premiere in Colorado


big_dish

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[quote name='Fulcher_33' timestamp='1342832031' post='1139953']
When I read these arguments I can't help but laugh. For some reason it seems as if the people that are for more people carrying guns actually believe that if a gunman came in shooting up a place that they would just pull out their firearm and defuse the situation. This ain't Hollywood, boys. I'm not saying you wouldn't defend yourself but let's be real, you'd be shitting yourself if some fucker with an automatic weapon came in shooting the place up. On top of that, especially in this theater shooting, it was fucking dark and people were going crazy trying to get out of there. In my opinion, if there were these "5 people with permits" sitting there it would have been so easy for one of them to shoot one of the others by mistake. You don't know which one is the gunman, all you see is someone with a gun in a room full of panic. Also, someone said that if there were 5 law abiding people in there that were allowed to carry, and if one of them was up front, that he could have taken the guy out or at least slowed him down. Well sure, if you're going hypothetical on us then anything is possible. Fact of the matter is this, there could have been 50 people in there with CCW permits and none of them may have been up front. And if we're going to be hypothetical then we might as well just say that this could have been prevented if they had better security on their damn doors. You know, this guy was wearing a bulletproof vest. If someone in the front row had stood up and shot at him I can almost guarantee that that person would have ended up in a body bag.

Look, I'm not 100% against people owning guns. I grew up in rural Kentucky and there were guns in my house since I was born. I'm fully trained to use a gun. I do feel that there needs to be much much much stricter gun laws though. And yes, I'm against CCW. I wouldn't be comfortable walking down the street knowing that at any moment one of these law abiding CCW holders may have had a bad day at work, after a big fight with the wife, and he just decides to take it out on some others. Fuck you guys acting like everyone with a CCW can't have something happen to them that makes them snap. People walking around with guns is a huge, huge mistake.

Oh yeah, someone mentioned that if there were more CCW permits would it possibly deter shit like this from happening? I think not at all. The death penalty sure as shit hasn't deterred anyone. Prison hasn't deterred too many from committing crimes. People like this fucking idiot that shot up the theater are not right in their fucking head to begin with. You actually believe that they would be of sound enough mind to think about the downside to what they're doing and decide not to do it?

There are good arguments on both sides, within reason. Fact of the matter is this, there are too many guns in America now that it would be impossible to clean it up and get rid of them. It's something that you guys have to live with.

To be totally honest, now that I sit back and REALLY think about it, instead of stricter gun laws I'd like to see people learn to treat others with a little more respect. That alone would drop the crime rate down a hundred fold. I do believe the old NRA saying that "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" and America is a fucking cesspool when it comes to respecting your fellow man. That is an entirely different argument though.
MULLY
[/quote]

Mully that Death Penalty argument is actually a poor one. In Texas where they don't just sentence people to the death penalty, but actually USE it, they have lower crimes rates than other similar states.
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[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1342842843' post='1139984']
In Texas where they don't just sentence people to the death penalty, but actually USE it, they have lower crimes rates than other similar states.
[/quote]

What similar states?
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[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1342842843' post='1139984']
Mully that Death Penalty argument is actually a poor one. In Texas where they don't just sentence people to the death penalty, but actually USE it, they have lower crimes rates than other similar states.
[/quote]

[url="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state"]Just in reference to murder, this does not seem to be true.[/url]
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[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1342842843' post='1139984']
Mully that Death Penalty argument is actually a poor one. In Texas where they don't just sentence people to the death penalty, but actually USE it, they have lower crimes rates than other similar states.
[/quote]

[url="http://www.texastribune.org/library/data/fbi-crime-statistics-2010/"]Yeah, not so much... [/url]
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1342844021' post='1139987']
[url="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state"]Just in reference to murder, this does not seem to be true.[/url]
[/quote]
[quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1342844713' post='1139988']
[url="http://www.texastribune.org/library/data/fbi-crime-statistics-2010/"]Yeah, not so much...[/url]
[/quote]

[url="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#MRalpha"]http://www.deathpena...d-state#MRalpha[/url]

So at 5 murders per every 100,000 Texas does pretty darn good for being on the boarder with Mexico and dealing with gang violence and immigration. There are a lot of factors other than just the Death Penalty.

There are 17 other states with a higher murder rate than Texas.

Just FYI Colorado only had 2.4 murders per 100,000 people in 2010.
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[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1342854618' post='1139995']
[url="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#MRalpha"]http://www.deathpena...d-state#MRalpha[/url]

So at 5 murders per every 100,000 Texas does pretty darn good for [b]being on the boarder with Mexico and dealing with gang violence and immigration[/b]. There are a lot of factors other than just the Death Penalty.
[/quote]

You're right, forgot about all them Mexicans... Point made sir! I'm guessing the 17 states with higher murder rates also had more Mexicans.
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[quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1342832426' post='1139954']
Even with body armor, a .40 or .45 would knock him back, or knock him completely over.
[/quote]

That's simply not true. Again it seems that your ideas on this subject in general are based on video games and/or action movies. There are plenty of articles debunking the myth of "stopping power" or energy transference, but here's one of them:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm

Note in particular the real-world examples from law enforcement of heavier, higher velocity rounds than would typically be used for CCW's failing to incapacitate even an [i]unarmored[/i] assailant. Watch the video from the "North Hollywood Shootout" for a more immediate demonstration of how meaningless "stopping power" is against a person in body armor.
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[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1342855183' post='1139996']
You're right, forgot about all them Mexicans... Point made sir! I'm guessing the 17 states with higher murder rates also had more Mexicans.
[/quote]

There are Mexican drug cartels right across the border leaving human heads on downtown streets....some of this drug violence has spilled over into towns like Brownsville. There is nothing racist about what I said, it's the truth.
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[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1342855483' post='1139998']
There are Mexican drug cartels right across the border leaving human heads on downtown streets....some of this drug violence has spilled over into towns like Brownsville. There is nothing racist about what I said, it's the truth.
[/quote]

Total truth.. Especially when you consider all these "immigrants", they outnumber the drug dealers and gang members 10 maybe 20 to 1 easy.. It's amazing Texas has such low murder rates. Only 17 states with higher you say?
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[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1342855418' post='1139997']
That's simply not true. Again it seems that your ideas on this subject in general are based on video games and/or action movies. There are plenty of articles debunking the myth of "stopping power" or energy transference, but here's one of them:

[url="http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm"]http://www.firearmst...com/briefs3.htm[/url]

Note in particular the real-world examples from law enforcement of heavier, higher velocity rounds than would typically be used for CCW's failing to incapacitate even an [i]unarmored[/i] assailant. Watch the video from the "North Hollywood Shootout" for a more immediate demonstration of how meaningless "stopping power" is against a person in body armor.
[/quote]

What? This case study says nothing about knocking someone back or knocking someone over. It has to do with incapacitation and death by placement/arterial disruption. I said nothing about that. You arent getting hit with a large round and not getting the energy transfer- often its the reaction to the bullet hitting the armor that causes the body to react/stumble/fall/disorient momentarily. It would be like someone jabbing you hard with the end of a broomstick- it is a sudden, forceful impact. I didnt mention anything about penetrating torsos/necks/arteries.

[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1342853836' post='1139994']
Seriously Dish, a lot of this stuff you are repeating sounds a lot like lobbyist talking point propaganda.
[/quote]

I feel the same way about what you are saying- because I dont agree with it. You dont agree with me so you feel that way.
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[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1342841570' post='1139982']
So, to summarize:

Shooting people: Had it coming.

Shooting birds: Cruel.

[img]http://www.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu/wiki/images/d/d3/LOLWUT_Pear.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Yeah its weird that humans have this odd thing that allows them to reason and make cognitive decisions and the ability to foresee the impact those decisions may have on the future. Animals dont. So when humans make decisions such as rape/robbery/assault/murder, they get whats coming to them sometimes. Virtually all animals are innocent, so to speak.
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[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1342841163' post='1139980']


In that case man you're just being squeamish and really don't have a leg to stand on.. Not saying you need to go out and hunt a cow or anything, but complaining about hunting when you're probably eating meat from factory farms? Fresh fish & game is far less cruel.. and [i]much[/i] tastier, too.
[/quote]

I don't disagree. For me it's entirely the act of seeing something alive and then snuffing out its life for sport and kind of food if you made me kill my chicken or cow I would be a vegetarian
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My beef with the whole "gun control" debate, is that for the most point we talk around each other. Dish, I don't want to take your guns, I have a few myself. My problem is with assault rifles and high capacity magazines. I don't think either should be allowed. Dish, a CCW holder in the situation as described, probably would have made it worse, however, a CCW holder being there with him only having a 10 shot magazine might have been able to prevent a number of Deaths/Injuries. Personally, as a Hunter, I see no reason for the high capacity magazines, and it seems that in most of the major disturbances, they have been HUGE contributors to the loss of life and or Injuries sustained.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1342807659' post='1139893']
Saw this on one of the comedian's I follow's FB.


Dear Internet People,
Maybe choose another day day to make pro gun statements.

Sincerely,
Good Taste
[/quote]

Both sides should tone it down. Nothing says shitty American politics like using a tragedy to make political points before the bodies are even buried.
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Did this dude have mental issues?

This shooting was probly unpreventable. You can't prepare for random. Shit happens.

PS reminded me of this song:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdbrxHLhOn8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdbrxHLhOn8[/url]
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[quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1342876606' post='1140007']
[b]I feel the same way about what you are saying[/b]- because I dont agree with it. You dont agree with me so you feel that way.
[/quote]

Really? Like what? Maybe you are attributing other posters statements to me?
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[quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1342876606' post='1140007']
What? This case study says nothing about knocking someone back or knocking someone over.
[/quote]

Um.. That's what "kinetic energy transfer" means.

[quote][font="Arial"][size="3"][color="#000000"]There's not one documented incident in which an officer was knocked unconscious or physically incapacitated or in any way rendered unable to perform willful activity after his soft armor stopped such a projectile. These officers absorbed nearly 100 percent kinetic energy transfer, yet [b]none were incapacitated by the blunt trauma "shock" of projectile impact[/b] or temporary displacement of underlying soft tissues.[/color][/size][/font][/quote]

Emphasis added.
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[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1342855418' post='1139997']
That's simply not true. Again it seems that your ideas on this subject in general are based on video games and/or action movies. There are plenty of articles debunking the myth of "stopping power" or energy transference, but here's one of them:

[url="http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm"]http://www.firearmst...com/briefs3.htm[/url]

Note in particular the real-world examples from law enforcement of heavier, higher velocity rounds than would typically be used for CCW's failing to incapacitate even an [i]unarmored[/i] assailant. Watch the video from the "North Hollywood Shootout" for a more immediate demonstration of how meaningless "stopping power" is against a person in body armor.
[/quote]

Or you could, you know...shoot him in the head.
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[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1342909754' post='1140069']
Or you could, you know...shoot him in the head.
[/quote]

That's surprisingly hard to do actually in good circumstances.. You know from your training in the military you are taught to shoot center mass, because aiming for the head likely means a miss. I qualified "expert" with the M16A2, so I do have some experience with this (missed 50m target because I jerked).
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[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1342909977' post='1140070']
That's surprisingly hard to do actually in good circumstances.. You know from your training in the military you are taught to shoot center mass, because aiming for the head likely means a miss. I qualified "expert" with the M16A2, so I do have some experience with this (missed 50m target because I jerked).
[/quote]

I was taught double tap to center mass with one to the head. Close quarter drills were different as compared to what a qual range for a rifle or pistol were. Aiming for the head is a difficult shot regardless of whether it is close range or long range, especially so if firing under duress. However, if you or anyone else has hit someone at center mass twice already and they are still standing, it makes sense to try a head shot to stop the bad guy.
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[quote name='Numbers' timestamp='1342963198' post='1140128']
I was taught double tap to center mass with one to the head. Close quarter drills were different as compared to what a qual range for a rifle or pistol were. Aiming for the head is a difficult shot regardless of whether it is close range or long range, especially so if firing under duress. However, if you or anyone else has hit someone at center mass twice already and they are still standing, it makes sense to try a head shot to stop the bad guy.
[/quote]

The Navy I was in taught me that if I hit the ocean 10 times using a .45 without ripping any of my digits off via the retraction of the slide, then I was good to go!
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