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14 dead, 50 injured by lone gunman in Batman premiere in Colorado


big_dish

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[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1342911668' post='1140075']
He was also wearing a helmet.
[/quote]

Then shoot him in the face. I guess my two cents is that in part, I agree with [b]Big Dish[/b]. Someone engaging that guy would have likely distracted him from murdering innocent civilians, likely allowing more people the bare seconds they needed to escape. I guess what really bothers me about things like this is that [i]nobody even tried to do anything[/i]. If I had been there and had my .45 with me, (i know, I know) I would have tried to stop him. Yes, maybe a couple people get killed in the crossfire, but...at least somebody [u]tried.[/u] All that's necessary for the triumph of evil and all that.

In the absence of a weapon, why didn't someone try to tackle this guy? I understand it was a scary, confusing scenario. But I cannot think of a more noble way to die than to sacrifice yourself so that others may live.
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Here is what I don't get.....packed house, people had to be in the front row(s) and no one notices "light" coming in that wasn't on screen. That should have been the first clue that either someone was trying to sneak a friend into the movie, or something else was up. I know if it were me in the front row, I would have closed the door immediately. That pretty much would have foiled this guy's plan.
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1342963676' post='1140133']
The Navy I was in taught me that if I hit the ocean 10 times using a .45 without ripping any of my digits off via the retraction of the slide, then I was good to go!
[/quote]

Yes, Fam Fire (Familiarization Fire) training was pretty close to that. Sometimes they'd even throw a bouy in the water and at least give something to aim at. It was sometimes funny to go out on the fantail and just watch because inevitably some "person" would shoot the deck and completely miss the ocean. :)

My reference was to shore facilities and the training conducted for Law Enforcement, SSDF (shipboard self defense force), Escort training, etc...

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First, unless you've actually been shot at, saying "I would've" this or that is pure speculation. Beyond that, let's not start blaming the victims. A lot of them [i]did[/i] do something - like shielding friends and family. A couple of them apparently died doing that. Playing MMQB after the fact is a little ridiculous.

Second, more generally in relation to the cowboy/vigilante attitude we've been talking about, I'd like to highlight this:

[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1342964591' post='1140138']
Someone engaging that guy would have likely distracted him from murdering innocent [b]civilians[/b]
[/quote]

Maybe you're a cop or military, but otherwise, having a gun does [i]not[/i] make you a de facto authority figure. You're still a civilian, just like everybody else. Not even trying to single you out so much as illustrate the problem I have with concealed carry. I'm not against it overall, but the attitude that comes along with it for a lot of people is definitely troubling. I do think that it should be more difficult than a weekend seminar to get one.
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[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1342964591' post='1140138']
Then shoot him in the face. I guess my two cents is that in part, I agree with [b]Big Dish[/b]. Someone engaging that guy would have likely distracted him from murdering innocent civilians, likely allowing more people the bare seconds they needed to escape. I guess what really bothers me about things like this is that [i]nobody even tried to do anything[/i]. If I had been there and had my .45 with me, (i know, I know) I would have tried to stop him. Yes, maybe a couple people get killed in the crossfire, but...at least somebody [u]tried.[/u] All that's necessary for the triumph of evil and all that.

In the absence of a weapon, why didn't someone try to tackle this guy? I understand it was a scary, confusing scenario. But I cannot think of a more noble way to die than to sacrifice yourself so that others may live.
[/quote]

In some ways I agree with what you are saying. Maybe it would have distracted this guy. Maybe. Maybe, a negative reaction would have caused a larger "body count" than what actually happened. Maybe.

The question really is this:

[b]Is allowing harm to an individual through your inaction ethically equivillent to causing harm to another individual through your actions ?[/b]
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[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1342981131' post='1140161'] First, unless you've actually been shot at, saying "I would've" this or that is pure speculation. Beyond that, let's not start blaming the victims. A lot of them [i]did[/i] do something - like shielding friends and family. A couple of them apparently died doing that. Playing MMQB after the fact is a little ridiculous. Second, more generally in relation to the cowboy/vigilante attitude we've been talking about, I'd like to highlight this: Maybe you're a cop or military, but otherwise, having a gun does [i]not[/i] make you a de facto authority figure. You're still a civilian, just like everybody else. Not even trying to single you out so much as illustrate the problem I have with concealed carry. I'm not against it overall, but the attitude that comes along with it for a lot of people is definitely troubling. I do think that it should be more difficult than a weekend seminar to get one. [/quote]

Maybe its my military experience talking. These people were murdered in cold blood, for no reason at all other than the psychological deficiencies of a stupid, moronic, heavily armed individual. My assertion is and will continue to be that someone with a weapon like the one I own stood a chance of stopping/delaying this asshole long enough to save lives. YMMV. And yes, its all MMQB at this point. 20/20 and all that. Its not ridiculous to think about "what could have been". I am not an internet tough guy in any way, shape or form. And I agree, owning (having) a gun doesn't make me any kind of authority. But it does level the playing field. Its like....why play the lottery? Well, because people actually win it! This situation reminds me of that. Its a one-in -a-million circumstance, but yet it DID happen.

Its strange...I took my sons to see the latest Ice Age movie today and my youngest, whom is 6 about to be 7, expressed concern over being killed in the theater due to him seeing this story on the news. Jesus fucking wept. What a crock of shit for a 6 year old to actually express concern about. Fuck that guy.

[quote name='Numbers' timestamp='1342981338' post='1140162'] In some ways I agree with what you are saying. Maybe it would have distracted this guy. Maybe. Maybe, a negative reaction would have caused a larger "body count" than what actually happened. Maybe. The question really is this: [b]Is allowing harm to an individual through your inaction ethically equivillent to causing harm to another individual through your actions ?[/b] [/quote] [quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1342984885' post='1140173'] The echo eventually causes a headache... [/quote]

I can't speak for others, but if I was in that theater, even with my children. and I was armed with my .45....there's no way I don't at least give it a go taking this guy down. Even if I die in the process. At least I would have drawn his attention away from my children, and the other innocents in the theater. Its not vigilantism to do what's right when the moment calls for it, which is the whole point of a CCW license in my opinion. Chances are you will never have to use it, and be grateful when you don't. But use that shit when you have to. Maniacs obviously exist among us. They need to be taken out if at all possible.
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Not saying it made a difference, but actually saying it did make a difference, but it was a Batman movie not The Expendables that these people were attending. I am quite surprised that SOMEONE didn't try to tackle the guy. I mean during 911 people crashed a plane in PA to save the lives of others, and at about every other major shooting recently in the US there were heroes that tackled the shooter. Look at the Gifford's shooting in AZ.
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http://www.tmz.com/2012/07/23/colorado-shooting-james-holmes-eviction/

[b]James Holmes[/b] was just days from possibly being kicked out of his Colorado apartment when he opened fire in a crowded movie theater and killed 12 people ... this according to his neighbors.

Two residents of Holmes' apartment building tell TMZ ... in order to live in the complex you MUST be enrolled in the university. As soon as your student status is axed, you only have 30 days to move out.

We're told the building takes this rule very seriously and checks residents' active status every single month like clockwork. Holmes was a University of Colorado student at one time, but school officials say he dropped out some time June.

That means Holmes was just about at the end of his 30-day grace period to move out of his apartment when he took an arsenal of weapons to a local theater and opened fire.

We reached out the building's management company and landlord multiple times for comment, but haven't heard back.
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[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1342909151' post='1140068']
Um.. That's what "kinetic energy transfer" means.



Emphasis added.
[/quote]

as someone who has spent a significant amount of time studying all things ballistics I can asure you that bullet impacts do NOT knock people back

id explain the physics if necessary but would prefer you just took my word for it
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[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1342997783' post='1140210']


Maybe its my military experience talking. These people were murdered in cold blood, for no reason at all other than the psychological deficiencies of a stupid, moronic, heavily armed individual. My assertion is and will continue to be that someone with a weapon like the one I own stood a chance of stopping/delaying this asshole long enough to save lives. YMMV. And yes, its all MMQB at this point. 20/20 and all that. Its not ridiculous to think about "what could have been". I am not an internet tough guy in any way, shape or form. And I agree, owning (having) a gun doesn't make me any kind of authority. But it does level the playing field. Its like....why play the lottery? Well, because people actually win it! This situation reminds me of that. Its a one-in -a-million circumstance, but yet it DID happen.

Its strange...I took my sons to see the latest Ice Age movie today and my youngest, whom is 6 about to be 7, expressed concern over being killed in the theater due to him seeing this story on the news. Jesus fucking wept. What a crock of shit for a 6 year old to actually express concern about. Fuck that guy.


[/quote]

I think you have realize that you would be in a different situation then most people in that theater. Because of your military background, you have the proper training for when all hell breaks loose. You would probably be alot more calm and under control than just a normal citizen.

For a normal citizen fear and panic is going to kick in when gun fire and tear gas goes off. They are not going to be thinking striaght. They are not going to be thinking about trying to tackle the guy. They are going to be thinking about running and saving their life. It would be close to impossible to try to shoot a guy in the head let alone the body when bullets are flying and your shaking from fear.

Someone with a military background could of probably handled the situation with a gun or at least slowed the guy down. You can't expect some normal citizen who has never been shot at or had any training to be able handle a situation like that.
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[url="http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/23/us/colorado-theater-heroism-obama/index.html?hpt=hp_c1"]http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_c1[/url]


Young, 19, instinctively stood to act or warn others. A shot ripped into her neck. She collapsed, blood spurting from the wound, Obama said.
Instead of running or hiding, Davies, 21, pulled Young into the aisle and put pressure on the wound with one hand and dialed 911 with the other, Obama said.

"I don't know how many people at any age would have the presence of mind that Stephanie did, or the courage that Allie showed," the president said. "They represent what's best in us, and they assure us that out of this darkness, a brighter day is going to come."
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[quote name='Go Skins' timestamp='1343043945' post='1140239']
[url="http://www.tmz.com/2012/07/23/colorado-shooting-james-holmes-eviction/"]http://www.tmz.com/2...olmes-eviction/[/url]

[b]James Holmes[/b] was just days from possibly being kicked out of his Colorado apartment when he opened fire in a crowded movie theater and killed 12 people ... this according to his neighbors.

Two residents of Holmes' apartment building tell TMZ ... in order to live in the complex you MUST be enrolled in the university. As soon as your student status is axed, you only have 30 days to move out.

We're told the building takes this rule very seriously and checks residents' active status every single month like clockwork. Holmes was a University of Colorado student at one time, but school officials say he dropped out some time June.

That means Holmes was just about at the end of his 30-day grace period to move out of his apartment when he took an arsenal of weapons to a local theater and opened fire.

We reached out the building's management company and landlord multiple times for comment, but haven't heard back.
[/quote]

Well, I guess he doesn't have to worry about searching for an apartment now. Hopefully he likes his new neighbors at his new residence because I am sure they will absolutely love him...

His new facility had him in solitary because of the death threats. Prisoners called him kid killer and one prisoner that was released verified that there is indeed a credible threat against him in there.
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[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1342826100' post='1139941']
You realize your answer doesn't necessarily prove me wrong, but it proves all the people that say he was able to do this because of how easy it is to get guns, wrong. [b]If someone REALLY has no regard if they live or die and are so mentally ill that they will kill people indiscriminately, then they will find a way to carry out their plan one way or another. Let's say Colorado had very strict laws where hardly any citizen could carry a gun or purchase a gun, there are many other ways the guy could have killed large groups of people. He could do like the Unabomber and make bombs, he could have pulled a truck load of fertilizer and diesel fuel up to the back of theater and blew up the place, heck he could have blocked the exit doors and fire bombed the place[/b].

So the point here is, neither side of the CCW laws argument can really use this guy as an example for pros or cons, but myself I'd rather fall on the side of holding my fate in my own hands.
[/quote]

Just wanted to add my two cents. This argument is flawed; "he was so disturbed he would have found a way to kill a bunch of people anyway." There is "finding a way" such as researching explosives and remote trigger electronics, acquiring/purchasing all the necessary equipment, assembling, planning and carrying out your plan all without getting caught or blown up in the process. And then there is a teenager driving 15 miles to a fucking gun show, buying a machine capable of firing 30 rounds in a clip, 10 clips and body armor with the only real question being "cash or credit?" One scenario enables people to commit tragedies, the other not so much.

[quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1342897601' post='1140054']
[b]My beef with the whole "gun control" debate, is that for the most point we talk around each other. Dish, I don't want to take your guns, I have a few myself. My problem is with assault rifles and high capacity magazines. I don't think either should be allowed.[/b] Dish, a CCW holder in the situation as described, probably would have made it worse, however, a CCW holder being there with him only having a 10 shot magazine might have been able to prevent a number of Deaths/Injuries. Personally, as a Hunter, [b]I see no reason for the high capacity magazines, and it seems that in most of the major disturbances, they have been HUGE contributors to the loss of life and or Injuries sustained[/b].
[/quote]

Exactly. Under no circumstance are assault rifles high capacity magazines necessary other than murder. The only argument anyone has in favor of these things involves "protecting themselves from the government." The sad truth is these people are so stupid they don't realize they could be protecting everyone they love from the tyranny of government simply with their votes.
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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1343066031' post='1140286']
Just wanted to add my two cents. This argument is flawed; "he was so disturbed he would have found a way to kill a bunch of people anyway." There is "finding a way" such as researching explosives and remote trigger electronics, acquiring/purchasing all the necessary equipment, assembling, planning and carrying out your plan all without getting caught or blown up in the process. And then there is a teenager driving 15 miles to a fucking gun show, buying a machine capable of firing 30 rounds in a clip, 10 clips and body armor with the only real question being "cash or credit?" One scenario enables people to commit tragedies, the other not so much.
[/quote]

I've said that CCW or whatever would have had little to no effect on this outcome. But I've also said that severely restricting gun access wouldn't have either. You make is sound as though it is terribly difficult to build homemade pipe bombs, or what have you...

Come on... can people not put partisan bullshit aside (and I mean from both sides) right now. Dude is crazy. A crazy person, once they decide that is what they're going to do, is going to go to whatever lengths he deems necessary to accomplish it. No regulations would have stopped him from killing people - only thing to have been determined would have been the means.

Just my opinion... but can't stand the guns rights people screaming "I'd have blown his head off" when that is total bullshit with a handgun in a dark, and smoky, theater. And, can't stand the gun control group screaming "see if he couldn't freely go and buy all these weapons none of this would have happened" like he wouldn't have just accomplished it via some other avenue. Once a person is committed to accomplish such a task the means is just a part of the checklist at that point.
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This IS a terrible tragedy...I want to say a couple things though...

Its easy for all of us to give the 'I would have' scenario's, but who knows how any of us would act in that situation. Fight or flight. For me, I'd like to think I'd have the courage to find a way to get to the guy from behind or something, but who knows at that time. Sounds like the theater was full of the second option.

Secondly, I live in a small town in WY right now and I found it interesting that we are flying our flag at half-mast for the victims. I am honestly not trying to stir the pot, but I wonder why we don't fly our flag at half-mast for the soldiers who lost their lives in Iraq who are making a KNOWN sacrifice. Half-mast is a sign of respect, mourning and/or distress..so it fits that description, but I always kinda viewed it for the heros. See what I'm sayin?
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[quote name='ButchWalkerRokks' timestamp='1343074830' post='1140309']
This IS a terrible tragedy...I want to say a couple things though...

Its easy for all of us to give the 'I would have' scenario's, but who knows how any of us would act in that situation. Fight or flight. For me, I'd like to think I'd have the courage to find a way to get to the guy from behind or something, but who knows at that time. Sounds like the theater was full of the second option.

Secondly, I live in a small town in WY right now and I found it interesting that we are flying our flag at half-mast for the victims. I am honestly not trying to stir the pot, but I wonder why we don't fly our flag at half-mast for the soldiers who lost their lives in Iraq who are making a KNOWN sacrifice. Half-mast is a sign of respect, mourning and/or distress..so it fits that description, but I always kinda viewed it for the heros. See what I'm sayin?
[/quote]

I am pretty sure that Obama asked for the flag to be lowered.
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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1343066031' post='1140286']
The only argument anyone has in favor of these things involves "protecting themselves from the government." The sad truth is these people are so stupid they don't realize they could be protecting everyone they love from the tyranny of government simply with their votes.
[/quote]

Well, that and the government has missles, UAV's, artillery, tanks, warplanes and aircraft carriers. Good luck with that machine gun there, bud.
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[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1342997783' post='1140210']
Maybe its my military experience talking. [snip]
[/quote]

Can't argue with any of your reasoning there but I wanted to highlight this for multiple reasons.. One, because a CCW doesn't require anything close to that sort of training. Also it's the exception where it may have made a difference. The average person hasn't experienced rapid-fire 5.56 in a smoke-filled room, people being shot, the chaos.. I hope I never do. If you haven't at least been trained to that standard, you should probably be running, too. And that's ok! There's a man in body armor with a fucking assault rifle AND a shotgun. Plus, the smoke or CS.. How would you even know what it was? There's a cloud of shit and a guy wearing a gasmask. I, too, really wish someone would have shot him in his goofy fucking face. Getting the fuck out of there, though, is a solid, workable plan. To even imply you would have done differently - like I said, military/police/triad assassin/etc being the notable exception - is some bullshit fantasy and insulting as hell to anyone that survived. That's the mfer that ends up trampling children in the aisle when it happens to them.
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[quote name='ButchWalkerRokks' timestamp='1343074830' post='1140309']
Secondly, I live in a small town in WY right now and I found it interesting that we are flying our flag at half-mast for the victims. I am honestly not trying to stir the pot, but I wonder why we don't fly our flag at half-mast for the soldiers who lost their lives in Iraq who are making a KNOWN sacrifice. Half-mast is a sign of respect, mourning and/or distress..so it fits that description, but I always kinda viewed it for the heros. See what I'm sayin?
[/quote]

We do fly the flag at half mast for those who have sacrificed for our country, it's called Memorial Day. For reasons of public moral it doesn't make sense to have the flags flown at half mast every day we are in a conflict... It is also common for the president to order the flags be flown at half mast in the case of a national tragedy. I think anyone would classify this as such. Not sure what you are complaining about..

At any rate, here is the presidential order:

[quote]

[size=3]As a mark of respect for the victims of the senseless acts of violence perpetrated on July 20, 2012, in Aurora, Colorado, by the authority vested in me as President of the United States by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, I hereby order that the flag of the United States shall be flown at half-staff at the White House and upon all public buildings and grounds, at all military posts and naval stations, and on all naval vessels of the Federal Government in the District of Columbia and throughout the United States and its Territories and possessions until sunset, July 25, 2012.[/size]

[size=3]I also direct that the flag shall be flown at half-staff for the same length of time at all United States embassies, legations, consular offices, and other facilities abroad, including all military facilities and naval vessels and stations.[/size]

[size=3]IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twentieth day of July, in the year of our Lord two thousand twelve, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-seventh.[/size]
[size=3]BARACK OBAMA[/size]

Read more: [url="http://www.gettysburgflag.com/FlyFlagHalfMast.php#ixzz21WXlf3lC"]http://www.gettysbur...p#ixzz21WXlf3lC[/url]
[/quote]
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[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1343113702' post='1140394']
Can't argue with any of your reasoning there but I wanted to highlight this for multiple reasons.. One, because a CCW doesn't require anything close to that sort of training. Also it's the exception where it may have made a difference. The average person hasn't experienced rapid-fire 5.56 in a smoke-filled room, people being shot, the chaos.. I hope I never do. If you haven't at least been trained to that standard, you should probably be running, too. And that's ok! There's a man in body armor with a fucking assault rifle AND a shotgun. Plus, the smoke or CS.. How would you even know what it was? There's a cloud of shit and a guy wearing a gasmask. I, too, really wish someone would have shot him in his goofy fucking face. Getting the fuck out of there, though, is a solid, workable plan. To even imply you would have done differently - like I said, military/police/triad assassin/etc being the notable exception - is some bullshit fantasy and insulting as hell to anyone that survived. That's the mfer that ends up trampling children in the aisle when it happens to them.
[/quote]

I suppose what it really boils down to is that it makes me extremely frustrated that someone can do something like this and nobody can do a damn thing about it. I don't think its insulting to the survivors or the victims to wish that I or anyone else could have tried to put a stop to that cowardly act. I have experienced CS a few times and yeah, it can be pretty bad. Speaking of which: has it been definitively determined that it was CS gas or was it only smoke? I keep seeing different references. CS is MUCH more difficult to deal with without a mask. I wonder how he could have got a hold of any CS. Its not widely available AFAICT.
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1343067010' post='1140292']
[u]I've said that CCW or whatever would have had little to no effect on this outcome[/u]. But I've also said that severely restricting gun access wouldn't have either. You make is sound as though it is terribly difficult to build homemade pipe bombs, or what have you... [/quote]

I agree with the underlined. As for the rest, my post was not about restricting "gun" access but about restricting "assault rifle, sub machine gun, and high capactiy magazine" access. Want to own 20 shotguns? I don't care. 15 revolvers and glocks? Go nuts. Once you start acquiring weapons capable of firing 30 rounds in 5 seconds and other devices designed for use in COMBAT SITUATIONS I believe are no longer interested in self defense and your right to bear arms. I believe they should not be available to the general public AT ALL. But I am a compromising person and I think if we require serious permits and serious training experience and punish the shit out of dealers who sell them to people without said permits, we can probably co-exist without a problem.


[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1343067010' post='1140292']
Come on... can people not put partisan bullshit aside (and I mean from both sides) right now. Dude is crazy. A crazy person, once they decide that is what they're going to do, is going to go to whatever lengths he deems necessary to accomplish it. No regulations would have stopped him from killing people - only thing to have been determined would have been the means.
[/quote]

Partisan bullshit? Yes Crazy people will kill people and will find any way necessary to do it...LETS NOT MAKE IT EASIER. Columbine, VT, Loughner, now Aurora, sure maybe they all would have built pipe bombs and fire bombs or ran around strangling people, but the point is they didn't have too because this country makes it way to easy to get your hands on weapons designed to kill large amounts of people in a very short amount of time.

I just named 4 examples of where easy access to assualt rifles, sub-machine guns, and high capacity magazines were used improperly to murder innocent people enmass.

One of you pro gun nuts find me 4, 3, 2, fuck 1 story where LIVES WERE SAVED BECAUSE A [u]CITIZEN[/u] HAD AN ASSUALT RIFLE OR SUB-MACHINE GUN OR HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINE. Fucking one.


Edit for clarity: Vol I'm not calling you a gun nut, you've been reasonable, I'm just issuing a challenge to those who disagree. To clarify the challenge, by "citizen" I mean average person, not current or ex-military/law enforcement as these are the people who I would suspect to pass the tests and be qualified for the severe restrictions I think are necessary. And please explain why the Assault rifle/sub machine gun/high capacity mag were specifically necessary over a .22 or a pistol to save lives.

I'm really looking forward to pages and pages of links about Johnny the Mechanic who single-handedly took down a Mexican drug cartel militia that ransacked his house and held his wife and kids hostage all because of his trusty AK47 that thankfully the USA let him purchase at WalMart. Really, really looking forward to learning a lot.
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[quote name='Jason' timestamp='1342814915' post='1139922']
Look up Kennesaw Georgia. Their crime rate is very, very low.
[/quote]

This is true Jason, lived in Georgia most my life. But, it's kind of deceiving because it is a small town. I fly down from Wyoming to visit my buddies back home in GA every year to watch the NFL Draft and we went to the Taco Mac in Kennesaw. After the draft we went over to the Starbucks to shoot the shit over some Padrons and some cops got out of their car with a shotgun (never seen that before!) and he rushed over my way and pointed it right at me looking for a guy in orange (thank God I wasn't wearing any Bengals garb)...kind of intense. I'm fairly certain I shat my pants.

Also, babes at Kennesaw? Amazing.
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