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14 dead, 50 injured by lone gunman in Batman premiere in Colorado


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[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1343406937' post='1141125']
So it's just convenience that Free Masons are generally the most impactful people in the community and usually hold some place of power? It's just a coincidence that 15 Presidents were Freemasons?

Look at the list of freemasons and tell me there isn't a connection to power and status:

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Freemasons"]http://en.wikipedia....t_of_Freemasons[/url]
[/quote]

Conspiracy
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[url="https://twitter.com/HuffingtonPost"][b]Huffington Post[/b]‏[s]@[/s][b]HuffingtonPost[/b][/url]
Police: Suspect in mass shooting plot wore T-shirt that said "Guns don't kill people. I do." [url="http://t.co/4PH5QICb"]http://huff.to/OTcgt7[/url]
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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1343417350' post='1141173']
[url="https://twitter.com/HuffingtonPost"][b]Huffington Post[/b]‏[s]@[/s][b]HuffingtonPost[/b][/url]
Police: Suspect in mass shooting plot wore T-shirt that said "Guns don't kill people. I do." [url="http://t.co/4PH5QICb"]http://huff.to/OTcgt7[/url]
[/quote]

Sad. And, true. [url="http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/26/florida-man-kills-door-to-door-salesman-i%E2%80%99ll-kill-anybody-that-steps-on-my-property/"]Another incident[/url].


[quote][color=#555555][font=georgia,]Roop said he feared for his life.[/font][/color]
[color=#555555][font=georgia,]“I’m not going to give him the chance to do something to me,” he told police. “I was in fear.”[/font][/color]
...
[color=#555555][font=georgia,]Roop’s neighbors described him as “the neighborhood crazy.” Roop has a concealed weapons permit and approximately 14 firearms.[/font][/color]
[/quote]
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1343434282' post='1141248']
Sad. And, true. [url="http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/26/florida-man-kills-door-to-door-salesman-i%E2%80%99ll-kill-anybody-that-steps-on-my-property/"]Another incident[/url].
[/quote]

That's seriously fucked up and in no way related to the OP about the Aurora shootings. Other than that both people that did the murdering are crazy. I realize you are trying to draw a common thread into this in American society writ large, being that we have become a nation enamored with "cowboy justice" but I will continue to adhere to the precept that to try to defend innocents during a shooting spree like in Colorado, whether with another firearm or without, is a noble cause and not worthy of condemnation. An annoying door-to-door salesman is not worthy of being murdered just because you have no trespassing signs up in your yard. WTF is wrong with these people? Jesus wept.
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[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1343434674' post='1141249']
That's seriously fucked up and in no way related to the OP about the Aurora shootings. Other than that both people that did the murdering are crazy. I realize you are trying to draw a common thread into this in American society writ large, being that we have become a nation enamored with "cowboy justice" but I will continue to adhere to the precept that to try to defend innocents during a shooting spree like in Colorado, whether with another firearm or without, is a noble cause and not worthy of condemnation. An annoying door-to-door salesman is not worthy of being murdered just because you have no trespassing signs up in your yard. WTF is wrong with these people? Jesus wept.
[/quote]

More in sympathy with Orange's comments about mental health. And, because it is people that kill people--and not guns. And I haven't so much condemned your sentiments as I have desired to broaden the notion of "courage"--hence my pointing out that one does not need a weapon to act courageously during these incidents. As I have said elsewhere, I am not totally against intervention, I just think that people are way too quick to jump to the cowboy justice solution as if that were the only one. Not sure this necessarily includes you.
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1343435763' post='1141257']
More in sympathy with Orange's comments about mental health. And, because it is people that kill people--and not guns. And I haven't so much condemned your sentiments as I have desired to broaden the notion of "courage"--hence my pointing out that one does not need a weapon to act courageously during these incidents. As I have said elsewhere, I am not totally against intervention, I just think that people are way too quick to jump to the cowboy justice solution as if that were the only one. Not sure this necessarily includes you.
[/quote]

Thanks Homer. But the larger point still stands....are we "really" a nation that has regressed into "cowboy justice", or are these incidents just more reported now due to the 24/7 media cycle....or perhaps that gun ownership is at an all time high (I have no idea if it is)? Or maybe there are by sheer population numbers more people that are mentally ill that own guns than ever before?

Ideally, someone courageous would have tackled that bastard and kept him from killing more people so he could stand trial. If someone put a bullet in his brain under the same scenario, I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over it or call it vigilantism. I also understand the elements of fear and confusion (possibly compounded by CS gas, which is a mother fucker) that mitigated any heroic attempts at stopping the massacre. I will reiterate that the whole thing makes me sad and I just keep wishing there had been a way that someone could have taken this guy out before he murdered and wounded so many people that were just there to watch a fucking movie.

Is your theory then that we are a more violent society now than before due to...more guns? More media displayed killings via war/videogames? What is it? Have we truly embraced the lowest common denominator or is there a root cause we can point to? Remember there was once a "wild wild west" in our history, where true "cowboy justice" ruled...and that wasn't necessarily always a bad thing.
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Tough and vexing questions, Bung.

I think I'll anchor my response via Lincoln. [url="http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=1067"]He gave an interesting speech on April 18, 1864.[/url]

Here is a portion:
[quote][size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000]The world has never had a good definition of the word liberty, and the American people, just now, are much in want of one. We all declare for liberty; but in using the same [/color][i]word[/i][color=#000000] we do not all mean the same [/color][i]thing[/i][color=#000000]. With some the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while with others the same word may mean for some men to do as they please with other men, and the product of other men’s labor. Here are two, not only different, but incompatable things, called by the same name———liberty. And it follows that each of the things is, by the respective parties, called by two different and incompatable names———liberty and tyranny.[/color][/font][/size]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4][color=#000000]The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep’s throat, for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as a [/color][i]liberator[/i][/size][color=#000000][size=3][size=4], while the wolf denounces him for the same act as the destroyer of liberty, especially as the sheep was a black one. Plainly the sheep and the wolf are not agreed upon a definition of the word liberty; and precisely the same difference prevails to-day among us human creatures, even in the North, and all professing to love liberty. Hence we behold the processes by which thousands are daily passing from under the yoke of bondage, hailed by some as the advance of liberty, and bewailed by others as the destruction of all liberty. Recently, as it seems, the people of Maryland have been doing something to define liberty; and thanks to them that, in what they have done, the wolf’s dictionary, has been repudiated[/size].[/size][/color][/font][/quote]

He then goes on to reference the massacre at Fort Pillow, which at that moment was still under investigation. I may be stretching the connection here, but for the time being, assume that there is at least a tenuous similarity between the barbaric behavior of the shooter at Aurora and the barbaric behavior of the murderers at Fort Pillow.

Our Civil War was the most challenging period of our internal history. And Lincoln was "great" because he was able to embody both the ideal and the practical--simultaneously. In the speech above he combines both, but concentrates on the practical, or political, notion of liberty. His shepherd, sheep, wolf metaphor is really quite powerful--it speaks for itself. And, if one reflects some, it is relevant in our context.

Let me line up your questions and your final point:
[quote]...[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]are we "really" a nation that has regressed into "cowboy justice", or[/font][/color][/quote]
I don't think regression is the best way to characterize matters. The tendency to act as shepherd or wolf is always within each individual and it is up to each individual to settle the issue within their own minds as to just what kind of person they choose to be. Further, society as a whole tends to lean one way or another, both politically and culturally, depending upon the prevailing social winds. And no matter which way the wind blows, there is generally always a substantial part of the population which holds the minority view. And hence, the tug of war really never ends.

I'd submit that the recent 40 years or so, beginning approximately with President Johnson's escalation of the Vietnam War, has seen the pendulum swing towards the "cowboy justice" side. We are impoverished, and thus stressed, we are warmongers, and thus made more brutal as a consequence, and we are becoming more and more alienated, both as a matter of how our economy works as well as psychologically as individuals. One big question during the Johnson admin was "Guns or Butter?" Well, we know, and have lived with the consequences of our collective choice for these past decades. Guns, not butter. And we'd be fools if we were to deny that this orientation hasn't placed stress on, and informed our collective and individual behavior.

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]are these incidents just more reported now due to the 24/7 media cycle...[/font][/color][/quote]
Empirical. Probably a contributor to our zeitgeist. I do think the tremendous publicity given to these incidents contributes to encouraging those warped folk who perform mass murders.

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]or perhaps that gun ownership is at an all time high (I have no idea if it is)?[/font][/color][/quote]
Don't know if this is true or if it would matter so much, in and of itself. But I do think that our generally wolfish attitude as a population does not feel normal social prohibitions against engaging in violence to solve problems. These debates over gun control are on a subset of what is really at stake, imo--are we shepherds or wolves? Right now, the wolves are winning.

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][quote]Or maybe there are by sheer population numbers more people that are mentally ill that own guns than ever before?[/font][/color][/quote]
Mental illness is a tricky diagnosis. There are really crazy folks and then there are the rest of us, many of whom could snap under a perfect storm of pressures. Perhaps better to say that maturity and morality are the key elements here. The more mature we are and the more moral we are, as individuals and as a cultural whole, the less we'll opt for the emotional, violent, temper-tantrum-y way of solving our problems. Plato 101. Golden soul, Silver soul, or Bronze soul? Is Socrates a hero or is Thracymachus?

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Is your theory then that we are a more violent society now than before due to...more guns?[/font][/color][/quote]
No. I as I have suggested, I think the capacity for violence, unlawful and lawful, resides with each of us. And has for all time. But in an important aspect, the central issue isn't a matter of positive law, but of how well we can control that capacity to violence. I do think that the prevalence of guns provides an easy and amply available means for doing violence, but the solution is neither in banning all guns nor in making guns easily acquirable. As a society, we have to put or minds together and come up with a compromise of sorts--guns can and should be available to responsible people, but perhaps we need to vet more deeply for personal responsibility. Become less wolfish, so to speak.

[quote]More media displayed killings via war/videogames?[/quote]
More empirical stuff. It's the saturation of socially acceptable violent solutions that is cumulative, video games and media are just part of the mechanism by which the stuff is delivered. I do think that our society has become more desensitized as a result of the wide proliferation of violence-promoting activities. But then again, before there was an internet or gaming, you and I would go out into the woods and play WWII combat. At least I did.

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]What is it?[/font][/color][/quote]
I'm trying, dude!

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Have we truly embraced the lowest common denominator or is there a root cause we can point to?[/font][/color][/quote]
I don't think there is much doubt that this is true if one equates the lowest common denominator with crass populism, the which has been on the rise for quite some time. For crying out loud, Clinton twice, GW Bush was elected twice, Obama probably twice. No matter what one thinks about them, they all at least offered pretense as populists. Come to think of it, Carter and Reagan, too. Daddy Bush was the only obvious "elititst" of the recent crowd. And he only got one term.

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Remember there was once a "wild wild west" in our history, where true "cowboy justice" ruled...and that wasn't necessarily always a bad thing.[/font][/color][/quote]
I would refresh, or deepen, your review of how this country moved west and what happened as it did. Good place to start would be with the last important legislation of the Confederation Congress: the Northwest Ordinance. What were the goals of this movement? It certainly was not to preserve the crude levels of precursor civilization that was on the cutting edge as we expanded westward. Besides, John Wayne was a pussy--just ask and Special Forces member or alum.
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Thanks for your thoughts. I need to ponder them. But I will say this: I honestly believe that Bush the Elder gets a bad rap. He wasn't a terrible President despite his elitist creds. You don't get to be the head of the CIA AND become the President without knowing what you are doing.
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[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1343510618' post='1141362']
Thanks for your thoughts. I need to ponder them. But I will say this: [b]I honestly believe that Bush the Elder gets a bad rap[/b]. He wasn't a terrible President despite his elitist creds. You don't get to be the head of the CIA AND become the President without knowing what you are doing.
[/quote]

I agree. I've also always held the contention that had Bush Sr. won in 92 that 9/11 never happens. Clinton's complete inadequacy in foreign policy, coupled with his complete cowardice in refusing to make a solid decision allowed Al Quada to grow and infiltrate to a level that allowed the attack in the first place. Bush Sr.'s FP connections (different from diplomacy, mind you) would have made all the difference following the '93 WTC attack...
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One of the victim's mom is ready to sue the movie theater:
http://www.tmz.com/2012/07/30/colorado-shooting-lawsuit-james-holmes-movie-theater-rebecca-wingo/

The mother of one of [b]James Holmes[/b]' massacre victims has hired a high-powered attorney to sue the Aurora, CO movie theater where he opened fire ... killing 12 people, and injuring 58 others.

TMZ has learned [b]Shirley Wygal[/b] is retaining a lawyer in Los Angeles to handle her case -- and we're told she plans to go after the Century 16 Theater.

Shirley's 32-year-old daughter Rebecca Wingo was shot and killed in the theater.

Sources close to Shirley tell us she believes the theater's emergency exit doors should have been alarmed, or there should have been security guards posted next to them ... especially for a premiere as anticipated as "The Dark Knight Rises."

Witnesses say Holmes entered the theater through an emergency exit door and then started shooting. Authorities think he may have propped the door open earlier from inside the theater.

TMZ broke the story ... a survivor of the shooting spree is [url="http://www.tmz.com/2012/07/24/james-holmes-lawsuit-shooting/"][b]planning a similar suit[/b][/url], but he also intends to go after Warner Bros. and Holmes' doctors.

We've reached out to Cinemark -- the theater's corporate owners -- but no reply yet.

Holmes will be in court Monday morning to be formally charged in the massacre.
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I am pretty sure that those doors weren't emergency exit doors, rather, they were doors that exited out into the parking lot that theatergoers would regularly use to exit the theater instead of pushing through the crowd in the lobby.
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[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1343650747' post='1141603']
I am pretty sure that those doors weren't emergency exit doors, rather, they were doors that exited out into the parking lot that theatergoers would regularly use to exit the theater instead of pushing through the crowd in the lobby.
[/quote]

Judging by the theaters in DC, where I live, I can't think of a single theater that has alarms on the emergency exit doors. I have seen plenty of retail establishments with alarms though. Unless Colorado has a state law that requires it, I don't think this woman will have a case.

Security guards? Really? Jamie can back me up on this, but when we saw movies just about every single Friday night at a mall, there would be county cops outside of the theater and sometimes inside it, but never instead the actual screen the movie was playing on. For the most part, there are multipliexes now anyway, and it would be unrealistic for a cop to be sitting inside to watch the crowd.
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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1344343467' post='1143811']
Surprised there has been nothing about the Wisconsin shooting on here yet.
[/quote]


From the little I know about Sikh, they would never arm themselves anyway. Just sad what happened.
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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1344343467' post='1143811']
Surprised there has been nothing about the Wisconsin shooting on here yet.
[/quote]

[url="http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/07/us/wisconsin-shooting-music/index.html?hpt=hp_c1"]http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/07/us/wisconsin-shooting-music/index.html?hpt=hp_c1[/url]

killing few sikh ppl does not generate as much media coverage :)

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[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1344346500' post='1143823']
From the little I know about Sikh, they would never arm themselves anyway. Just sad what happened.
[/quote]

Very rarely Sikhs or in general Indians(Which sikh community is part of) carry guns. Having known those ppl my entire life due to having so many buddies they absolutely do not carry any sort of weapons into their temple so pretty much there was no case of self defense. It is very sad to say indeed because as brave as sikh ppl are in general(Most of the top ranking indian army are sikhs) they are also the most kind ppl at heart. A thing like this happening in a place of worship is a black spot for a free country like this.
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[quote name='sois' timestamp='1344368854' post='1143855']
america only cares if white poeple die
[/quote]

[url="http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/08/why-the-reaction-is-different-when-the-terrorist-is-white/260849/"]This guy[/url] extrapolates your stance a little.

My own conclusions:
White people killed by brown people --> terrorism --> Patriot Act, TSA, etc
White people killed by white people --> Madman --> gun law discussion
Brown people killed by white people --> aren't the Olympics on?
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  • 4 months later...
[url="http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/02/16307983-disgusting-families-of-massacre-victims-boycott-colorado-theater-reopening-event?lite"]http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/02/16307983-disgusting-families-of-massacre-victims-boycott-colorado-theater-reopening-event?lite[/url]

Calling it a “disgusting offer” and a “thinly veiled publicity ploy,” some victims’ families of the Aurora, Colo., theater massacre are outraged that the movie house chain's owner would invite them to a special event marking the re-opening of the place where 12 movie-goers were killed and 58 wounded.

Cinemark CEO Tim Warner offered free tickets to an event Jan. 17 for the reconfigured Aurora Century Theatre, according to an [url="http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/z-pdf-archive/Cinemark%20Letter%20to%20Relatives.pdf"]invitation letter sent to Aurora Mayor Steve Hogan[/url] and obtained by NBC News. Warner also points out the community had requested the theater's restoration.

In addition, victims and their families were told special arrangements could be made for them to visit before the reopening, on Jan. 15 and 16.
[url="http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_22297268/aurora-theater-victims-families-plan-boycott-theater-reopening"]According to the Denver Post[/url], an email invitation was also sent through the Colorado Organization for Victim Assistance. It said that counselors would be available at the event.

In response, a group of families fired back a letter of their own, [url="http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/z-pdf-archive/families%20letter%20to%20cinemark-offer.docx"]blasting the invitation[/url] and saying they would urge a boycott of the event on social media.

“This disgusting offer that you’d 'like to invite you and a guest to a special evening of remembrance on Thursday, January 17 at 5 PM' followed by the showing of a movie and then telling us to be sure 'to reserve our tickets' is wholly offensive to the memory of our loved ones.”

The letter says Cinemark had not reached out to families before the invitation.

"None of us received a letter of condolence or any other communication from Cinemark, but now they want us to step foot in that theater," Sandy Phillips, mother of Jessica Ghawi, told The Denver Post. Ghawi was one of the people fatally shot during the sold-out midnight showing of the Batman film "The Dark Knight Rises" on July 20.

“We, the families, recognize your thinly veiled publicity ploy for what it is: A great opportunity for you to distance yourselves and divert public scrutiny from your culpability in this massacre,” the letter states.
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there was another shooting in aurora colorado, some guy shot a bunch of people in a house, one woman escaped, police shot him down from outside the house...

for those wondering, Aurora, CO = Hamilton, OH, there are shit ghetto parts and high end luxury neighborhoods in different parts...

shootings are regular there... just obviously not to the extint of the movie theatre thing.

the invitation just sounds like a poor decision by someone involved, leaving the familes out of it completely is the only choice I can see to make... no way any of them ever go there.. and inviting them there only makes a spectical out of it..

business at that theatre is going to be super shitty for a LONG time..
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[quote name='Go Skins' timestamp='1357220965' post='1202857']
“We, the families, recognize your thinly veiled publicity ploy for what it is: A great opportunity for you to distance yourselves and divert public scrutiny from your [b]culpability[/b] in this massacre,” the letter states.
[/quote]

[url="http://abcnews.go.com/US/theater-massacre-lawsuits-easy-expert/story?id=16846857"]http://abcnews.go.com/US/theater-massacre-lawsuits-easy-expert/story?id=16846857[/url]

Suing the theater, the movie makers, and doctors...

[quote]"On the whole those kinds of lawsuits are not very successful, in that these cases rarely go to trial," she said. "Usually, they're decided on motion beforehand[b] or settled by defendant[/b]."

Any suit against the movie theater would have to prove the cinema acted unreasonably or was aware of a threat, said Mimi Wesson, a professor of Law at the University of Colorado.[/quote]

[url="http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2013/0103/James-Holmes-in-court-Monday-What-will-his-defense-be-video"]http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2013/0103/James-Holmes-in-court-Monday-What-will-his-defense-be-video[/url]

[quote]A judge imposed a gag order shortly after Holmes' arrest barring attorneys and investigators from speaking publicly about the case, and many documents have been sealed.

The Phillipses said the invitation could be a public relations ploy to help show the public that some victims or their families are willing to attend the theater reopening.[/quote]

This is what its about;

[img]http://wpmu.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Make-Money-with-WordPress.jpg[/img]
This is what its supposed to be about (...and the other victims);

[img]http://www.maannews.net/images/345x230/183505_345x230.jpg[/img]

For those that haven't figured it out yet, she is of Palestinian descent. Her father was from Jerusalem and escaped the violence over there to come to America...
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