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Romney/Ryan


Jamie_B

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[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1344896754' post='1145884']
I'm not defending Obama and his policies. I am defending reality as opposed to propaganda. It's hard for me to respect the opinion of someone who parrots "talking points" they heard while listening to their preferred institutional mouthpiece.

Your use of Obama's quote was delivered in the same manner as it was put out by the republican propaganda machine, and used in that context to contrast a political idea embraced by that same institution..
[/quote]

Parroting talking points is not for me. However, when someone says something regardless of whose machine puts it out, you do the research on the info to determine the reality of the statement. As did alot of people posting here on the democratic machine putting out the info on Romney regarding taxes. The truth of it is hard to tell without being his accountant and having his tax return in front of you. As far as what he pays, who cares ? I see a few who obviously care but did I hear an outcry about the Clintons ? Did anyone care to look into the dealings of Michelle Obama while still in the Chicago area ? Its easy to cast the first stone but not so easy when the stone is thrown back.

The real question is how much is each side spending on these ads attacking each other ? Meanwhile each representative is claiming the " other " is out your money.
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[quote name='Numbers' timestamp='1344901124' post='1145908']
Parroting talking points is not for me. However, when someone says something regardless of whose machine puts it out, you do the research on the info to determine the reality of the statement. As did alot of people posting here on the democratic machine putting out the info on Romney regarding taxes. The truth of it is hard to tell without being his accountant and having his tax return in front of you. As far as what he pays, who cares ? I see a few who obviously care but did I hear an outcry about the Clintons ? Did anyone care to look into the dealings of Michelle Obama while still in the Chicago area ? Its easy to cast the first stone but not so easy when the stone is thrown back.

The real question is how much is each side spending on these ads attacking each other ? Meanwhile each representative is claiming the " other " is out your money.
[/quote]


What I am wondering, is why you used Obama's severely misrepresented quote to make a point?
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I don't really care who others are going to vote for. I am voting for Obama.
Has he done a "great" job"? No. But I think he has done a pretty good job
all things considered. And there is a lot to be considered when you look
at what he was handed. Don't tell me about some FaceBook meme that
says shit about gas prices and the unemployment rates either.

I always considered myself leaning more to the right, but I just can not agree with
a lot of shit people on the Right are doing now. How in the hell can they refuse to
tax the wealthiest people, while cutting programs that help the poorest? They say
"well, they are the one's that create jobs." Really? Where are all of those jobs being
created? I say tell them "Create so many jobs, then get a tax break. Make record profits
and pay taxes out the ass." Also, if they forced Companies to bring back a lot of jobs
they shipped overseas, then I would give them a tax break. Keep those jobs overseas
and I will tax the hell out of you.

Scott Walker made over $800 million in cuts to education here while giving tax breaks to
big businesses. They cut the hell out of a lot of programs at my Twins' school. I mean there
were somethings that were basically a tradition there that are now gone because they can't
afford it anymore. But John Big Business can afford a new vacation home in some other Country.
It's bullshit. Walker and his ilk have turned me against the Republican Party. Paul Ryan seems
worse to me than Walker is. By the way, I think major cuts to our future, which to me is what
education of our youth is, is just unacceptable.

I just want what's best for MY Country. And the end of the day I couldn't care less if the guy running
the show has Rep or Dem in front of his name. I am pretty disheartened with Politics in general lately.
Seems they are all the same except for a few issues. And I don't agree with either side on every issue anyway.
I just think R Money whoooops. Romney and Ryan will make bad shit worse.
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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1344901906' post='1145913']
[/quote]

Don't feel bad Old.. There are many republicans in the boat you are in. As an independent I am frustrated by the lack of choice as well. I would love to be able to make a choice.. But what it seems to me is there is basically a center/center right candidate in Obama, and then there are fascists, robber barons, and nut jobs on the other side.

If you really examine Obama's record as president he would have fit well into the Republican party of the past.
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[quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344889069' post='1145823']


My point is, is that he already paid 40% (+/-) on his income. He was already taxed an incredibly high amount.

He then took that post-tax income, and risked it as investment... and was taxed again on earning... and flat out lost it when the investment was bad.

He paid a ton of taxes already... and re-invested some of the leftover money. Why should he be taxed again and again and again at a ridiculously high rate? He already paid much, much more than his "fair share" the first time around.
[/quote]

You do realize that that is all bullshit, don't you?
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[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1344902200' post='1145915']
Don't feel bad Old.. There are many republicans in the boat you are in. As an independent I am frustrated by the lack of choice as well. I would love to be able to make a choice.. But what it seems to me is there is basically a center/center right candidate in Obama, and then there are fascists, robber barons, and nut jobs on the other side.

If you really examine Obama's record as president he would have fit well into the Republican party of the past.
[/quote]


I am an Independent (might be hard to believe for some), but I think if I had to categorize myself it would be Liberterian. I am pretty Liberal on Social Issues.
I mean, I am for Gay Marriage or some Civil Union that recognizes their relationships in a legal capacity. I am Pro Choice.
I am for legalization of drugs ect. I am for stricter Gun Laws though. And a host of other things that I'd rather not go into at the moment.

I voted Bush (1st President I could vote for after I turned 18), Clinton twice, Bush twice and Obama once. So, so far I have voted for both parties the same amount and the winner every time.
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[quote name='Numbers' timestamp='1344895529' post='1145878']
I believe every side should be heard. Even if it requires me playing the side I don't always agree with. The word is dialectic.
[/quote]

I congratulate you on your exploration of the concept of dialectics. I'd encourage you to seriously dig in on this subject because it's my belief that as a matter of epistemology, a thorough understanding of dialectics--in all its permutations--will open a wonderful landscape which most people never bother to traverse. It'll put the "smart" back in "smartass." :25:

That said, your usage here is quite mistaken. Dialectics is not the philosophical equivalent of "equal time" musing--that implies a "horizontal" view of matters wherein all comers have a legitimate place on the playing field. Dialectics, in ancient Greek usage, and most specifically associated with Socrates and Plato, is a "vertical" approach wherein premises are examined, seeking the premises of the premises. And so on. There is also a nineteenth century version of dialectics which is inferior, epistemologically, to the ancient usage. This is mostly associated is Hegel and Marx. One generally encounters explanations of this lesser version of dialectics as a matter of thesis/antithesis/synthesis. Not a bad tool to have in one's intellectual locker, but it's a bastardization nonetheless.

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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1344900844' post='1145906']
[b] [size=6]Paul Ryan on Social Issues: Where Does He Stand?[/size][/b]



Mitt Romney's pick of Paul Ryan as his running mate set off weekend-long debates about the young Wisconsin rep's fiscal policies, but less was said about his stance on social issues. Where does Romney's running mate stand on such issues as abortion and gun rights?

[b]Abortion[/b]
Ryan is firmly against abortion rights. He has an 100 percent rating from the National Right to Life Committee, the nation's largest anti-abortion rights organization. He co-sponsored the Sanctity of Human Life Act, a bill that would define human life as beginning at conception.

[url="http://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/234752548848955394"]President Obama tweeted earlier today[/url]: "Make sure the women in your life know: Paul Ryan supports banning all abortions, even in cases of rape or incest."

Ryan, however, has said that he was willing to disagree, "with mutual respect," with others on the issue.

[b]Gay Rights[/b]

Ryan's record on gay rights is mixed, and gay rights is one issue on which Ryan and Romney disagree somewhat. Ryan's said he's anti-same-sex marriage, and he's voted against adoption rights for same-sex couples.

Romney has said he believes same-sex couples should be allowed to adopt.

But Ryan did break with his party to vote for the Sexual Orientation Employment Nondiscrimination Act, which would prohibit discrimination in hiring on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity.

Romney has said that he would not support that legislation at the federal level, saying those decisions should be made by the states.

[b]Guns[/b]

An avid outdoorsman who hunts, Ryan has received an "A" record from the National Rifle Association for his stance and voting record on gun rights. In the past, Ryan has voted "yes" on the Firearms Manufacturers Protection Bill, which would prohibit "misuse" lawsuits against gun manufacturers, and "no" on the 72 Background Check Amendment, which would increase the required background check time period for purchasing a gun from 24 hours to 72 hours.

[b]Immigration[/b]

Ryan voted against the Dream Act, legislation that would offer a route to citizenship to illegal immigrants who came to the U.S. as children and had gone to college here. On his[url="http://paulryan.house.gov/issues/issue/?IssueID=9970"] congressional website,[/url] Ryan said that the legislation "attempts to treat a symptom, rather than the root cause, of our current problem." Ryan favors placing a priority on securing the border, "developing a more secure employee verification system" and working on creating "an enforceable guest worker program."



[url="http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/paul-ryan-social-issues-stand/story?id=16994248"]http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=16994248[/url]
[/quote]

Hey ABC News, what about his insane economic ideas?
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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1344901906' post='1145913']
I don't really care who others are going to vote for. I am voting for Obama.
Has he done a "great" job"? No. But I think he has done a pretty good job
all things considered. And there is a lot to be considered when you look
at what he was handed. Don't tell me about some FaceBook meme that
says shit about gas prices and the unemployment rates either.

I always considered myself leaning more to the right, but I just can not agree with
a lot of shit people on the Right are doing now. How in the hell can they refuse to
tax the wealthiest people, while cutting programs that help the poorest? They say
"well, they are the one's that create jobs." Really? Where are all of those jobs being
created? I say tell them "Create so many jobs, then get a tax break. Make record profits
and pay taxes out the ass." Also, if they forced Companies to bring back a lot of jobs
they shipped overseas, then I would give them a tax break. Keep those jobs overseas
and I will tax the hell out of you.

Scott Walker made over $800 million in cuts to education here while giving tax breaks to
big businesses. They cut the hell out of a lot of programs at my Twins' school. I mean there
were somethings that were basically a tradition there that are now gone because they can't
afford it anymore. But John Big Business can afford a new vacation home in some other Country.
It's bullshit. Walked and his ilk have turned me against the Republican Party. Paul Ryan seems
worse to me than Walker is. By the way, I think major cuts to our future, which to me is what
education of our youth is, is just unacceptable.

I just want what's best for MY Country. And the end of the day I couldn't care less if the guy running
the show has Rep or Dem in front of his name. I am pretty disheartened with Politics in general lately.
Seems they are all the same except for a few issues. And I don't agree with either side on every issue anyway.
I just think R Money whoooops. Romney and Ryan will make bad shit worse.
[/quote]

I know we dont see eye to eye regarding the wars but I want to hug you right now. :lol:

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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1344901906' post='1145913']


I just want what's best for MY Country. And the end of the day I couldn't care less if the guy running
the show has Rep or Dem in front of his name. I am pretty disheartened with Politics in general lately.

[/quote]

I also want whats best for my country. And when I ask myself if we (as a country) are taking small steps towards more liberties, or small steps towards complete governmental dependence/control, I don't like the answer. Thats what is most important to me.

[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1344901839' post='1145912']
What I am wondering, is why you used Obama's severely misrepresented quote to make a point?
[/quote]

If you are talking about Obamas "you didnt build that" speech, there was nothing misrepresented about that quote. He said exactly what the quote said.

[quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1344902530' post='1145919']
You do realize that that is all bullshit, don't you?
[/quote]

So, you are telling me that the money Romney earned that he then invested wasn't taxed at the bracket it should be? Source?
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[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1344893232' post='1145871']
Do you [i]really[/i] think people like Romney get their money in a bi-monthly payroll check?


Considering how much you complain about people on public assistance being "leaches" while ignoring corporate welfare, off-shore tax shelters and outsourced jobs, I guess maybe you do...
[/quote]

Then demand an end to it. Hold your politicians accountable. I dont like that anymore than you do. I dont like it anymore than individuals that leach. But both are allowed under our government because politicians are dirtballs... none of them give a shit about you or I.

[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1344897709' post='1145888']
This!

When I read "how does Romney avoid payroll taxes?" it literally blew my mind. How do you attempt to have a rational conversation about a topic with someone so out of touch?
[/quote]

So, what you are saying is that Romney wasn't taxed at the correct amount on his initial income prior to investments? Thats what you are insinuating?
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[quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344907530' post='1145974']
If you are talking about Obamas "you didnt build that" speech, there was nothing misrepresented about that quote. He said exactly what the quote said.
[/quote]

Simply taking the quote with no context around it is disingenuous and frankly no better than what these politicians do.
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[quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344892494' post='1145866']
What I mean is you are taxed on your initial income at your correct bracket.

People then reinvest money, and when they come out ahead, some believe they should be taxed at that bracket level again, even though the income was already taxed.

I dont really have a dog in the fight, as I dont invest... I just dont get it.
[/quote]

Someone as rich as romney knows how to game the system. Capital gains, dividends, shell corporations for flow through taxation after massive writeoffs.... etc. Regular people can do that stuff, imagine if you are super rich and can afford an army of accountants? You wont pay shit in income taxes.
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[quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344907788' post='1145976']
So, what you are saying is that Romney wasn't taxed at the correct amount on his initial income prior to investments? Thats what you are insinuating?
[/quote]

I'm saying he reported his income as capital gains so that he would be taxed lower on it than he would have been if he reported it simply as income.

Its cheating the system.
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[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1344901906' post='1145913']
How in the hell can they refuse to
tax the wealthiest people, while cutting programs that help the poorest?

[/quote]

They tax the fuck out of the wealthiest people... they tax the fuck out of the people below them too... and below them. Taxing decent to high earners more isnt going to reduce the deficit, it isnt going to help the economy... taxing them more isnt the answer to anything except creating more government dependence programs, and less individual independence. I dont like the fact that school programs are cut... but until government spending is reeled in and controlled, you cannot just keep taxing and taxing and taxing people to death. Its un-American. What is American is everyone (everyone) realizing that our country is in trouble, and sacrifices need to be made. That may be in the form of an extra curricular being cut, a little bit higher taxes for EVERYONE (not just the top 5-10-20% of earners).. or a flat tax system that is higher for everyone... whatever it may be- we're in trouble- and making tough cuts and personal sacrifice may be the only thing that helps right the ship.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1344908238' post='1145983']
I'm saying he reported his income as capital gains so that he would be taxed lower on it than he would have been if he reported it simply as income.

Its cheating the system.
[/quote]

Thats off of invested funds though.

Anyway- the government is the one that has set this system up. I hate the IRS. I hate the tax system. This is set up and not reigned in because politicians are crooks in general and this works best for them. There is no reason we shouldnt have a simple tax plan (flat tax or the like) that removes the IRS and cheating from the system. If someone stores a shit ton of money without spending X amount... maybe then tax them- I dont know. BUT this is the playing field your/everyones heroes like Obama and Romney, or Clinton and Bush etc etc etc keep putting out there. Instead of fixing it, people are divided over it... and thats exactly where the pols want us.
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[quote name='sois' timestamp='1344908158' post='1145981']
Someone as rich as romney knows how to game the system. Capital gains, dividends, shell corporations for flow through taxation after massive writeoffs.... etc. Regular people can do that stuff, imagine if you are super rich and can afford an army of accountants? You wont pay shit in income taxes.
[/quote]

Yeah you can jump through a ton of hoops with invested money... but thats not the same as payroll. They've paid their taxes on payroll, and are more like professional investors. They've already paid their taxes on the initial earnings though- at a likely high clip. They are still taxed on invested earnings- just not as much. Even so, the total tax amount from payroll + other income sources combined is high as hell.
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[quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344908298' post='1145984']
They tax the fuck out of the wealthiest people... they tax the fuck out of the people below them too... and below them. Taxing decent to high earners more isnt going to reduce the deficit, it isnt going to help the economy... taxing them more isnt the answer to anything except creating more government dependence programs, and less individual independence. I dont like the fact that school programs are cut... but until government spending is reeled in and controlled, you cannot just keep taxing and taxing and taxing people to death. Its un-American. What is American is everyone (everyone) realizing that our country is in trouble, and sacrifices need to be made. That may be in the form of an extra curricular being cut, a little bit higher taxes for EVERYONE (not just the top 5-10-20% of earners).. or a flat tax system that is higher for everyone... whatever it may be- we're in trouble- and making tough cuts and personal sacrifice may be the only thing that helps right the ship.
[/quote]

No what Romney is doing by cheating the system to avoid paying his taxes is unAmerican. There is no ifs ands or buts about that.

Are you aware that taxes are as low as they have been since the 1950s? That Obama has actually CUT taxes for the middle class?

Personal Sacrifice for who? Not the rich.
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[quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344908521' post='1145986']
Thats off of invested funds though.

Anyway- the government is the one that has set this system up. I hate the IRS. I hate the tax system. This is set up and not reigned in because politicians are crooks in general and this works best for them. There is no reason we shouldnt have a simple tax plan (flat tax or the like) that removes the IRS and cheating from the system. If someone stores a shit ton of money without spending X amount... maybe then tax them- I dont know. BUT this is the playing field your/everyones heroes like Obama and Romney, or Clinton and Bush etc etc etc keep putting out there. Instead of fixing it, people are divided over it... and thats exactly where the pols want us.
[/quote]

You either dont understand how this works or are being purposefully disingenuous to say that your ok with how it works.

Romney can essentially report his income at whatever he wants to, for instance he can say I only made 1 dollar in income last year, and the rest of my money was made in capital gains. Now thats a bit extreme but its not far off from what he is doing.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1344908803' post='1145990']
No what Romney is doing by cheating the system to avoid paying his taxes is unAmerican. There is no ifs ands or buts about that.

Are you aware that taxes are as low as they have been since the 1950s? That Obama has actually CUT taxes for the middle class?

Personal Sacrifice for who? Not the rich.
[/quote]

If he is cheating the system, as you say... then that must be illegal and he should be arrested, yes?

Taxes are high. I dont care if they are lower than they were- they are still WAY too high for me. And thats mainly because the government cannot control itself and its spending.

Everyone needs to sacrifice. My taxes are high as shit. Pay a ton of money to federal, local, state governments every two weeks. I make my "sacrifice" in this sense. Plenty of other people dont. And the from the rich to the economically comfortable pay an un-equal amount of tax compared to the other 300,000,000 people in this country.
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[quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344909270' post='1145994']
If he is cheating the system, as you say... then that must be illegal and he should be arrested, yes?
[/quote]


Exactly what I suspected you were doing, you understood it, but were playing dumb so that you could say you are ok with how things are and are defending it, I completely disagree with this.
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