big_dish Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1344908982' post='1145991'] You either dont understand how this works or are being purposefully disingenuous to say that your ok with how it works. Romney can essentially report his income at whatever he wants to, for instance he can say I only made 1 dollar in income last year, and the rest of my money was made in capital gains. Now thats a bit extreme but its not far off from what he is doing. [/quote] I'm not against someone risking their own money to try to make more. Its no different than gambling. Now, I dont gamble either, but if there are tax systems for gambling I have no idea if there is), then it could follow something like that- there is a paper trail. Just because someone is successfully making money by risking the loss of already taxed income, I personally dont believe it is right to tax them again at 35-40%... Its gambling on a large scale. Fine, treat it as such... but its not the same as a payroll income. You have to have money to make money in that line of "work".. and the initial money was taxed by the IRS already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_dish Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1344909379' post='1145995'] Exactly what I suspected you were doing, you understood it, but were playing dumb so that you could say you are ok with how things are and are defending it, I completely disagree with this. [/quote] I understand the context of your argument and your point of view, I just disagree with it. And for the record, I want a flat tax system, with possible caveats/penalties if someone sits on enormous piles of money without donating or spending percentages. That would solve your complaints as well as mine. I want taxation to be as fair as possible for everyone that lives in this country- that means everyone paying their fair share- not just those who have reached a pinnacle of earning potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344909270' post='1145994'] If he is cheating the system, as you say... then that must be illegal and he should be arrested, yes? Taxes are high. I dont care if they are lower than they were- they are still WAY too high for me. And thats mainly because the government cannot control itself and its spending. Everyone needs to sacrifice. My taxes are high as shit. Pay a ton of money to federal, local, state governments every two weeks. I make my "sacrifice" in this sense. Plenty of other people dont. And the from the rich to the economically comfortable pay an un-equal amount of tax compared to the other 300,000,000 people in this country. [/quote] Basically what you are arguing is that a whole segment of our society.. The richest among us, basically pay no taxes.. Ever. Not them, nor their descendants forever and ever (or as long as they can maintain their affluence).. Because these people don't "go to work" and earn a paycheck which "the payroll company has already taken the taxes out of". Their money is made entirely off investments and interest. Don't you see how that would in essence be creating a class of royalty which utilizes the infrastructure of the country that is paid for on the backs of poor labor without having to pay back into the system? You think that is "American"? You think it is "American" for the wealthiest people to get a tax break, while the poor and middle class are asked to go to war, while having their pensions stolen from them by the elite who gambled with it while standing to gain all "winnings" and not expected to suffer any real losses? If so, then you are the ultimate stooge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344909554' post='1145997'] I'm not against someone risking their own money to try to make more. Its no different than gambling. Now, I dont gamble either, but if there are tax systems for gambling I have no idea if there is), then it could follow something like that- there is a paper trail. Just because someone is successfully making money by risking the loss of already taxed income, I personally dont believe it is right to tax them again at 35-40%... Its gambling on a large scale. Fine, treat it as such... but its not the same as a payroll income. You have to have money to make money in that line of "work".. and the initial money was taxed by the IRS already. [/quote] [quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344909685' post='1145999'] I understand the context of your argument and your point of view, I just disagree with it. And for the record, I want a flat tax system, with possible caveats/penalties if someone sits on enormous piles of money without donating or spending percentages. That would solve your complaints as well as mine. I want taxation to be as fair as possible for everyone that lives in this country- that means everyone paying their fair share- not just those who have reached a pinnacle of earning potential. [/quote] You disagree with tax fairness? Serf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_dish Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1344909815' post='1146001'] You disagree with tax fairness? Serf [/quote] What does fair mean to you? It sounds like you dont want fairness, you want a prejudiced system of taking more from one group to make up for a lack of contribution from others. Thats not, nor has it ever been any definition of fair to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344910200' post='1146006'] What does fair mean to you? It sounds like you dont want fairness, [b]you want a prejudiced system of taking more from one group to make up for a lack of contribution from others[/b]. Thats not, nor has it ever been any definition of fair to me. [/quote] No, that would seem to be what you want. Why won't Romney release his tax records if he has payed so much in taxes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1344908982' post='1145991'] You either dont understand how this works or are being purposefully disingenuous to say that your ok with how it works. Romney can essentially report his income at whatever he wants to, for instance he can say I only made 1 dollar in income last year, and the rest of my money was made in capital gains. Now thats a bit extreme but its not far off from what he is doing. [/quote] I have to point out that you actually spelled "disingenuous" correctly. Baby steps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 Guys! Don't sweat this so much. I've got in under control. I've been lobbying the HoR to institute a lumpen tax. Goverments in all jurisdictions in the U.S. will be running a surplus in no time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1344910351' post='1146008'] I have to point out that you actually spelled "disingenuous" correctly. Baby steps. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344910200' post='1146006'] What does fair mean to you? It sounds like you dont want fairness, you want a prejudiced system of taking more from one group to make up for a lack of contribution from others. Thats not, nor has it ever been any definition of fair to me. [/quote] I want what the father of capitalism Adam Smith wanted. [quote]The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.[/quote] [quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1344910351' post='1146008'] I have to point out that you actually spelled "disingenuous" correctly. Baby steps. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1344910406' post='1146009'] Guys! Don't sweat this so much. I've got in under control. [color=#ff0000]I've been lobbying the HoR to institute a lumpen tax.[/color] Goverments in all jurisdictions in the U.S. will be running a surplus in no time. [/quote] Rand would be proud, making those "moochers" pay!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_dish Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1344909724' post='1146000'] Basically what you are arguing is that a whole segment of our society.. The richest among us, basically pay no taxes.. Ever. Not them, nor their descendants forever and ever (or as long as they can maintain their affluence).. Because these people don't "go to work" and earn a paycheck which "the payroll company has already taken the taxes out of". Their money is made entirely off investments and interest. Don't you see how that would in essence be creating a class of royalty which utilizes the infrastructure of the country that is paid for on the backs of poor labor without having to pay back into the system? You think that is "American"? You think it is "American" for the wealthiest people to get a tax break, while the poor and middle class are asked to go to war, while having their pensions stolen from them by the elite who gambled with it while standing to gain all "winnings" and not expected to suffer any real losses? If so, then you are the ultimate stooge. [/quote] I am the stooge? You are the one that believes the wealthy dont pay taxes. Envy and jealousy are not good looks. Its absurd that you believe the wealthy do not pay taxes. I also never said anything about inheritance tax. I've only mentioned that people who use their post-taxed earning and put their savings on the line to make more money by "gambling" (and often spurring invention/tech advances etc) shouldn't be taxed twice at such a high rate. Its a huge risk for a reason.. take away that reason, and no one will invest anymore. The wealthy dont pay taxes. Oh thats rich. Pun intended. [quote]Let’s look at the numbers. Using data from the [url="http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/o..id=133521.oo.html"]Internal Revenue Service[/url] in 2009, the top 1% of earners, including individuals with incomes of $343,927 or greater, represented [b]16.9% of all income and paid 36.7% of all federal taxes[/b]. Their average tax rate was 24.01%. The top 0.1% who had incomes of $1,432,890 or greater represented [b]7.8% of all income and paid 17.11% of all taxes.[/b][/quote] http://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2012/01/31/the-facts-on-tax-rates-who-pays-what/ Thats very few people paying 53.81 % of all federal taxes. More than 50% of all federal taxes paid by a tiny fraction of top earning citizens... where does all this tax money come from if they dont pay any taxes? So weird... maybe it just appears out of thin air? Thats probably it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_dish Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1344910529' post='1146011'] The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state. [/quote] Good, that is what I want also... everyone to pay their fair share. So why do we have a tiered system set up? We should each pay X percentage of our income. You want a bunch of money? Tax everyone at 40%. boom. Done. We are all equal. Someone making $40k a year will pay $16,000. Someone making $1,000,000 will pay $400,000. Equal, fair amounts. Not selecting who does and doesnt pay for our country to run effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_dish Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 By the way, lost in the divisive nature of the class warfare our President has set up, is the fact that even if you tax the shit out of the wealthy even more, it still wont come close to solving any of our budget issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344911040' post='1146015'] I am the stooge? You are the one that believes the wealthy dont pay taxes. Envy and jealousy are not good looks. Its absurd that you believe the wealthy do not pay taxes. I also never said anything about inheritance tax. I've only mentioned that people who use their post-taxed earning and put their savings on the line to make more money by "gambling" (and often spurring invention/tech advances etc) shouldn't be taxed twice at such a high rate. Its a huge risk for a reason.. take away that reason, and no one will invest anymore. The wealthy dont pay taxes. Oh thats rich. Pun intended. [url="http://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2012/01/31/the-facts-on-tax-rates-who-pays-what/"]http://www.forbes.co...-who-pays-what/[/url] Thats very few people paying 53.81 % of all federal taxes. More than 50% of all federal taxes paid by a tiny fraction of top earning citizens... where does all this tax money come from if they dont pay any taxes? So weird... maybe it just appears out of thin air? Thats probably it. [/quote] Those are the ones who are paying it as income tax and not reporting it as capital gains. Dont know if your a stooge, but you are a serf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_dish Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1344910298' post='1146007'] No, that would seem to be what you want. Why won't Romney release his tax records if he has payed so much in taxes? [/quote] I'm not a Romney fan, I have no idea. Probably for the same reason Obama wouldnt release his birth certificate, college transcripts, fast and furious documents etc etc ad naseum for all politicians pretty much for eternity... not to mention- if they aren't legally ordered to do so, they have no reason to submit under public pressure. Politicians run us, not the other way around. Unfortunate sad reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344911278' post='1146017'] Good, that is what I want also... everyone to pay their fair share. So why do we have a tiered system set up? We should each pay X percentage of our income. You want a bunch of money? Tax everyone at 40%. boom. Done. We are all equal. Someone making $40k a year will pay $16,000. Someone making $1,000,000 will pay $400,000. Equal, fair amounts. Not selecting who does and doesnt pay for our country to run effectively. [/quote] Im not in favor of making those who live at or below the poverty line pay taxes, that would be immoral imo.[quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344911278' post='1146017'] Good, that is what I want also... everyone to pay their fair share. So why do we have a tiered system set up? We should each pay X percentage of our income. You want a bunch of money? Tax everyone at 40%. boom. Done. We are all equal. Someone making $40k a year will pay $16,000. Someone making $1,000,000 will pay $400,000. Equal, fair amounts. Not selecting who does and doesnt pay for our country to run effectively. [/quote] You realize I am suggesting progressive taxation right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_dish Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1344911421' post='1146021'] Those are the ones who are paying it as income tax and not reporting it as capital gains. [/quote] If that is the case, then the percentage would be even more skewed- and thats the point. The wealthy are paying an uneven burden already. And like I said above, it doesn't even matter- the additional federal income wouldnt make a damn dent. Whats wrong with a flat tax? Whats wrong with Herman Caines 9-9-9 proposal (he's on some kind of right track, IMO... just needs tweaking). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_dish Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1344911608' post='1146025'] Im not in favor of making those who live at or below the poverty line pay taxes, that would be immoral imo. You realize I am suggesting progressive taxation right? [/quote] Proportional taxation. I just want everyone paying taxes- one way or another- so if thats what it takes, lets do it... Everyone pays, everyone enjoys the spoils. Not 20% pays, while 50+% enjoy the spoils. Thats not fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 If it is fair to tax everyone at the same rate, then I presume it is also fair to pay everyone the same rate. Works for me. I'm off to wait at mailbox for check from the rich assholes who have profited off my labor these past 40 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344911648' post='1146026'] If that is the case, then the percentage would be even more skewed- and thats the point. The wealthy are paying an uneven burden already. And like I said above, it doesn't even matter- the additional federal income wouldnt make a damn dent. Whats wrong with a flat tax? Whats wrong with Herman Caines 9-9-9 proposal (he's on some kind of right track, IMO... just needs tweaking). [/quote] Cutting the programs to the poor and elderly isnt going to make a damn dent its going to make the problems worse, when the poor have money they spend it, which creates jobs, when the rich have money and they spend it, it only creates jobs in the industries that cater to the rich, but how many jobs can that really create? How many mazaradis need to be bought to create jobs for the masses vs how many Chevy's do? I mean the rich can only buy so many mazaradis while the poor/middle class can buy one and fuel the economy much better because there is more of us to push it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344911777' post='1146028'] Proportional taxation. I just want everyone paying taxes- one way or another- so if thats what it takes, lets do it... Everyone pays, everyone enjoys the spoils. Not 20% pays, while 50+% enjoy the spoils. Thats not fair. [/quote] I have a hard time telling people living at or below the poverty line and barely getting by that they need to pony up. That just seems Sadist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='big_dish' timestamp='1344911040' post='1146015'] I am the stooge? You are the one that believes the wealthy dont pay taxes. Envy and jealousy are not good looks. Its absurd that you believe the wealthy do not pay taxes. I also never said anything about inheritance tax. I've only mentioned that people who use their post-taxed earning and put their savings on the line to make more money by "gambling" (and often spurring invention/tech advances etc) shouldn't be taxed twice at such a high rate. Its a huge risk for a reason.. take away that reason, and no one will invest anymore. The wealthy dont pay taxes. Oh thats rich. Pun intended. [url="http://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2012/01/31/the-facts-on-tax-rates-who-pays-what/"]http://www.forbes.co...-who-pays-what/[/url] Thats very few people paying 53.81 % of all federal taxes. More than 50% of all federal taxes paid by a tiny fraction of top earning citizens... where does all this tax money come from if they dont pay any taxes? So weird... maybe it just appears out of thin air? Thats probably it. [/quote] First of all, I didn't say anything about how all "the wealthy don't pay taxes". I was referring to capitol gains, and those super wealthy who live off them.. You completely failed to address any of my points, and proceeded to build a straw man. Fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 Rand was a sociopath, this is what the Republican party has come to.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqkTwy9KJyQ&feature=player_embedded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sou2RkjVya8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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