-GoBengals- Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 I may be looking for some advice, I honestly dont know why I am writing this, but its something that is continuing to bother me. I have been married for over 7 years, I have been with my wife in some sort of relationship for 11 years. When I was ages 8 to probably 14, my mom forced my sister and I to go to church, my dad never went. He was always working on the house we just build, etc, and later found out he wouldnt have been there anyway. So I was exposed to religion and church at a young age, I never had any real problems with it, i didnt want to dress up and soon realized I hated all of the kids there. We went to a methodist church, all of the kids I hated the most from school went to that same church, the snobbiest, shittiest d-bag families in the whole town all went there, literally ALL of them. I didnt understand why they were pieces of shit, and they assumed for whatever reason I was some poor kid from this one trailer park(the bus I rode went to said trailer park and about 3 other houses). You know how asshole kids can be. So I got a bad sense of the whole process from those kids/families being there. But the church part never bothered me. I assume I believed, I was young, not sure why I wouldnt have. So at about 14 we were given the choice to go or not, and going to church came to a halt, my mom stopped going too. She later went a few times with some friends of hers that were much older. So i met my wife, we dated, none of her family went to church(local family that is). So it never really came up. I had lost all touch with religion at this point, it literally NEVER came up. We got married, no where near a church, according to the Bible we were ultimate sinners, she was pregnant, and the list goes on and on for the sinning. Her parents moved to Zanesville which is where the majority of her family lives and is from. They ALL go to church constantly, like several times a week. I find this ironic and comical as the entire family doesnt live by anything the bible stands for, tons of divorce, kids from many fathers, adultery, kids doing bad things to other kids and parents basically turning a blind eye. Its non stop. I have to keep tabs on my kids from across the country when they are there so I know they arent near certain individuals, etc.. its fucked up. At some point, my wife, assuming through a few long visits there, got to bible thumping a little bit and is some new found christian with bible morals and opinions. Sidenote: At some point in my life, probably 9-10 years ago, some things were going very poorly in my life, a friend who was there for me was very involved in his church, i leaned on him a lot, i ended up getting saved and doing some church events with him. He moved, I had another friend who was also very religious, who i hung out with a bit. He got married and we no longer worked together, etc.. After my mom died, I basically lost all "faith" in religion, i know everyone says their mom is the best, but my mom was literally the best, she retired from work early to babysit my kids so we didnt have to pay for daycare, she took care of her parents hand and foot, doctors appointments, grocery store, did their medical paperwork, handled their insurance, she had more paperwork and files on their medical lives than the whole rest of the family combined, she put EVERY ahead of her.. and taking my grandparents to those doctos is where she caught the H1N1 virus that killed her. She was put in a machine that rotated her so the fluid in her lungs didnt kill lung tissue, she was unconscious, and i never got to say goodbye, i never got to tell her what she meant to me or my boys. For there to be a God, and for her to go through that torture and pain and pass like that, it just doesnt add up. I had my kids then being watched by my wifes mother, they were fed shit, one day i picked them up and she said "carson didnt eat very well, he didnt want anything but cinnamon rolls, so he had 3 cinnamon rolls today and that was it" ..he was like 2, how does that even happen? anyway, they came home misbehaving, unhappy, emotional, they had no discipline no order and ran around like savages. Even my wife decided we needed to find something else. at this point i decided i needed to get the hell out of Ohio, the people I grew up around in school, the job market, everything was just shit, it was time to leave. Bought the house out here and all has been great so far, great school system, smart kids, lots of family around (my in laws here are great, 6 kids in the bunch). I had noticed my wife had read some in the bible here and there, she never said anything about any of it so i just moved along, I have read the bible, I find it to be wishy washy nonsense that can be interpreted in 30 differnt ways and is used more in a negative light than a positive one. A few weeks ago, in the wake of Gay Chicken Gate, she brought up that it was "awful" how people were hating on chik fil a for just speaking their beliefs, etc.. and she said she agreed with them blah blah.. I immediately asked her if she was retarded(seriously)... first of all, i dont care what chikfila thinks or does or says, freedom of speech and religion, etc.. but you have to accept the consequences of your beliefs and actions, which is what was happening, its the boycotters and critics right to speak out against them just as much as it is theirs to be bigots. all is fair. So we got on the topic of gay marriage, she says blah blah man and woman, i asked "why do you care?" i mean seriously why would I care what two dudes or two ladies do in their spare time. they can get married, adopt kids, etc.. who cares. She goes on some nonsense rant about the bible and point of marriage is to conceive and this and that... it was some of the most uneducated hillbilly redneck bigot horseshit I have ever heard. Worst part is she even admitted she agrees that being gay isnt a choice, its something you are born with, which in my mind makes her opinion even worse. Your entire family is the living anti-christian lifestyle party and you want to deny gay people basic rights that do not affect you at all... I dont get it. She also works in a remote area and basically works with crazy hill people and "focus on the family" members(look it up)... so I can see the combo of her nutbag family and working among the nutjobs may have SOME change in your mind, but wtf... during the argument she said many dumb things but also stated she wants to bring the boys up as christians(must be a loose guideline with the way her family is).. and im cool with that, problem being, she doesnt go to church and she sure as hell isnt ever going to take them to church... so random tidbits of idiocy are the only hint of religion they will likely get.... My boys can make their own decision, I dont know if there is a God or not, all i am saying is the evidence presented to me in the past 31 years is leaning towards "probably made up"... Since this went down, everything has been normal, not another word of it. So i dont know what to do, my kids will NOT have idiotic hatred of anyone for any reason other than bad people being bad people. gay straight any race, etc, dont care, i raise them to treat people with respect, if someone is mean to them to tell them you dont want to b treated that way you tell them you dont want to play with them anymore because of the way they are treating you... so far so good. I dont think they need some imaginary 10x rewritten and interpreted set of nonsense to live by... being a good person is simply the right thing to do... i have no idea if my wife will have another moment of crazy or not... how do I avoid this shit all together and im going to need good reasons to not let my boys go stay with her family alone, ever... this honestly hit my like a truck when it went down... thinking "who the hell did i marry"... any thoughts or advice are welcome, minus anything that is a religion debate, thats not what im looking for, think what you want, let me think what i want... I just cant accept her whole families idea of "going to church makes me a good person no matter how much horrible shit i do in life, im going to heaven anyway." that shit doesnt fly with me...to be a good person you have to actually BE A GOOD PERSON... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 Damn Go.. I am sorry to hear that man, it's a tough situation. I think in a marriage, one of the most important things can be that the 2 people see the world in the same way. Not that you have to agree on everything, but have a basic shared foundation of interpreting reality. Having very disparate views on religion can be tough, since these views often shape the way we view reality. I think the big question is how well do you guys communicate? Rhetorical question, but do feel comfortable basically saying everything you wrote here (in a more diplomatic way at some points), and working through these issues to come to some sort of agreed understanding? I think this is especially important where the kids are involved. You will have to work out something that will be acceptable to the both of you. If you are both working on competing agendas there will be bigger problems down the road. It seems that you are willing to compromise about the religion thing, and in general seem pretty willing to accept that she has different beliefs than you. I would work from that and see if you can get her to compromise in a way which will make you feel better about it. Ultimately [b]communication is the key[/b].. And that can also mean the setting of boundaries when it comes to discussions and sharing ideas. For example you can let her know you aren't interested in being converted (just an example) or that you really don't want to have a debate about things you consider bigotry. It's good to talk things out, but it's also important to know what subjects will achieve nothing but hurt feelings. Good luck man.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-GoBengals- Posted August 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 Thanks for the reply. Communication has always been an issue with us. She was raised in a family where every little thing was blown up to a huge ordeal. And I was raised to be calm about everything. And more importantly be logical about everything. I know that sounds one sided and harsh, but as an example... Her mom didn't like me for some reason when we started dating, my wife wanted to get a dog, I said no lets wait until we move in together(in 6-9 months at that point) so we can train it and raise it together, etc... She agreed but was kinda bummed. She told her mom that, her mom told her not to let me force her to not get things she wants, I don't care if she is happy, and loaned her the money to buy the dog then and there.. Then she complained that she wasn't home to take care of it enough every time we were together, then told her she had to get rid of the dog, or dump me, then she told her if she didn't dump me she had to move out... My and parents response? She can stay here if she has to move out. We even went to go get her clothes from her moms house, called her bluff, her mom asked what she was doing, my wife was crying, told her getting her clothes cause she had to move out, etc, and her mom gave some guilt trip speech about choosing me over her and how could she not love her and so on... This is one of MANY very similar situations. So that hampers our communication a lot. She can't have a logical conversation that isn't riddled with over emotion and over reaction. Most times we communicate ok. But in situations like this it's all fireworks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='GoBengals' timestamp='1345438456' post='1148726'] Thanks for the reply. Communication has always been an issue with us. She was raised in a family where every little thing was blown up to a huge ordeal. And I was raised to be calm about everything. And more importantly be logical about everything. I know that sounds one sided and harsh, but as an example... Her mom didn't like me for some reason when we started dating, my wife wanted to get a dog, I said no lets wait until we move in together(in 6-9 months at that point) so we can train it and raise it together, etc... She agreed but was kinda bummed. She told her mom that, her mom told her not to let me force her to not get things she wants, I don't care if she is happy, and loaned her the money to buy the dog then and there.. Then she complained that she wasn't home to take care of it enough every time we were together, then told her she had to get rid of the dog, or dump me, then she told her if she didn't dump me she had to move out... My and parents response? She can stay here if she has to move out. We even went to go get her clothes from her moms house, called her bluff, her mom asked what she was doing, my wife was crying, told her getting her clothes cause she had to move out, etc, and her mom gave some guilt trip speech about choosing me over her and how could she not love her and so on... This is one of MANY very similar situations. So that hampers our communication a lot. She can't have a logical conversation that isn't riddled with over emotion and over reaction. Most times we communicate ok. But in situations like this it's all fireworks. [/quote] Man, (SMH) that's rough. Maybe the best thing to do is to try to get out ahead of it.. If you know she is dead set on raising them in a christian lifestyle, you may want to consider drawing a line and insisting that they receive a proper religious education. It may also be best for you to pick out a church that you feel you can live with teaching your children. Not all churches are the same, and you may find one that is more palatable. Try looking for "progressive" churches in your area. The internet may help with this. Perhaps come to an agreement that when the children reach a certain age (like 14 when you were younger) that they are able to decide for themselves if they want to continue it. You may have to sacrifice and do the church thing, or if that is really out of the question maybe bible school and youth groups are an option? Sometimes when you are forced down a path it's best to make sure you are driving the boat. In the end, there will have to be some sort of compromise, and it may be that it's you who is going to have to be the one to do it. Just make sure that it is something you truly can live with. It does no good to be dishonest to ourselves in that respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 I would say similar to what has already been mentioned... she is saying her piece, you say yours. My only pieces of advice... I would try and stay away from describing her beliefs / opinions as "idiocy, lunatic, are you crazy"... that won't get any conversation anywhere. She'll immediately feel that you're attacking and she'll get defensive instead of being open. While you may fully believe that, professing that to her, if she feels strongly, will cause a communications gap. You can raise your kids Christian without attending a church weekly... provided you're giving them that raising in other ways. Whether it is calling on shut ins, helping at homeless shelter, doing your own form of religious study. Heck, there are youth groups that meet Sunday evenings, Wednesday evenings, etc. that provide a structured religious foundation and make it fun for the kids too. That could provide less "formal" instruction. If certain aspects of family, be they whichever side, are a negative influence, then arrangements should be made to curtail that involvement... you're here to raise your kids the best way you know how and make them productive citizens going forward. Just remember, as you stated in your second post, she's emotional and sometimes non-logical. Any women I mean this with the nicest of intentions... women are first and foremost emotional beings. That is what we love so much about them - if someone was calling you out, they'd defend you until their dying breath because of their love for you... regardless of what the topic even was. When emotion gets involved logic sometimes erodes in those instances... that is why I mentioned trying to keep the charging words and statements out of it, otherwise, it will turn emotional, she'll get defensive and you really won't get anything accomplished as logic will go away and you won't be able to resolve anything. As you said you didn't want to get into the religious debate I'll leave the other topics alone. Good luck - I hope you are able to sit down with her, have an honest, non-judgmental, non-combative discussion and come to some sort of compromise so everyone is comfortable moving forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 I'm the last person to ask about relationships but I will pass this on as far as the gay thing... [url="http://www.thegodarticle.com/7/post/2011/10/clobbering-biblical-gay-bashing.html"]http://www.thegodart...ay-bashing.html[/url] Maybe try to find a church that believes like this pastor does so she gets differing opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Montana Bengal| Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 I would definitely take some time to find the 'right' church. Just because a Methodist church is labelled as that, doesn't mean it will be the same. So much has to do with the congregation and pastor (my dad was one and I've been in a bunch). Shop around though and see where you are comfortable regardless of denomination. I know my dad had an evening class that ran for months that was really meant to unpack things....that wasn't often the 'standard' stuff that gets repeated, but has no basis. (My dad is super liberal and laid back) Echoing Jamie....you may find a gay pastor out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 God didn't write the Bible, man did. And it can be interpreted whatever way the reader wants. That is why there are over 38,000 denominations that all basically come from the same book. "Christians" that are against Gay Marriage, and stand on the Bible to justify their beliefs need to have it pointed out that Lamech, in Genesis 4, just 6 generations after Adam and Eve, who had 2 wives. Abraham had 2 wives, Esau had 3 wives, Jacob had four wives, Gideon and David had many wives, and Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. Perhaps they also support what is called Levirate marriage (Deut. 25), where if a man dies without sons his brother is to wed his wife and produce a son for the deceased brother. So how do they get out of it that the Bible only talks about Marriage being between 1 man and 1 woman? Christians don't own Marriage. Marriage isn't a religious thing. The Wedding can be, but it doesn't have to be to be recognized as a legal union of a Couple by our Government. People from other Religions can get Married. Hell, even Atheist can get Married. But people of the same Sex can't? All because "For the Bible told me so"? It's ridiculous. I believe in God. I lost my faith a few years back. But I've gained it back. Both sides of my Family were very religious (Pentecostal) And I remember back to the words of my Mamaw, who was raised in the hills of Eastern Kentucky, and didn't have anything that really resembles a education from "schooling" but was one of the smartest minds I have ever met. She said "Church is where you worship God. It can be in your backyard if that is where you choose for it to be. Don't let any man try and tell you how you should serve and worship your Savior. It's what you feel. It's what you believe. If you do go to a Church, don't believe everything the Preacher tells you. Some of it is what he feels, what he believes. If it doesn't sound or feel right to you, then it is not right for you." Those words changed me. Because I was brought up in a Church that said you live this way or when you die, you go to Hell. So now I serve the Lord how I see fit. I treat all people with dignity and respect (unless I am on here. lol) He created us all. Like I said, I believe in God, but I also understand the Bible was written by men that were basically story tellers and "law makers". And it came from a time when they thought the World only existed for a few hundred miles in every direction. They knew nothing of the land we all live on today. And even thought the World was flat 1,500 years after Jesus died. Jesus never talked about Marriage or Gays. He talked about Love, Acceptance, Tolerance and Peace. The only Sins I know of that God himself talked about, is the 10 Commandments, no where does it talk about Marriage or being Gay. I think the Bible is just a "good" book. The words were written long, long ago. But we have became smarter and evolved as people. I mean seriously, if we are to believe what the Bible says word for word, then we ALL are products of incest. Adam and Eve had kids, their kids had kids together, and so on and so on. I love the Bible. I go to it for comfort and reference all the time. You get out of it what you want. This Country was founded on the belief in God. But it was also founded on Freedom. And one of those Freedoms is the freedom of religion. And the seperation of Church and State. Again, we are talking about Rights as Citizens of this Country. Not Religious beliefs. You can still not agree with something and allow others to have the Freedom to do it. It's the American way. Anyway, just tell your woman that if she wants to stand on the Bible to justify hate and intolerance, that she is also going to have to stand on the words that say she is your servant, you are her Master. She must obey you. You control her body. And a host of other things like you can have concubines and stuff like that. I am sure she will jump off that Bible real quick. lol Good luck to you Ryan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1345472199' post='1148784'] Anyway, just tell your woman that if she wants to stand on the Bible to justify hate and intolerance, that she is also going to have to stand on the words that say she is your servant, you are her Master. She must obey you. You control her body. And a host of other things it says. I am sure she will jump off that Bible real quick. lol Good luck to you Ryan. [/quote] Ryan - I'd suggest highly that Old is saying this tongue in cheek... in all seriousness, you go this route you'll get nowhere. Believe me, I've tried it! I've done the whole "you are to obey me bit..." I wouldn't attack what she believes, but would flesh out her thoughts and have a discussion about them. Have a civil conversation where she presents her arguments, you present yours, and see if you can find a common ground. A good back and forth is very healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1345472863' post='1148787'] Ryan - I'd suggest highly that Old is saying this tongue in cheek... in all seriousness, you go this route you'll get nowhere. Believe me, I've tried it! I've done the whole "you are to obey me bit..." I wouldn't attack what she believes, but would flesh out her thoughts and have a discussion about them. Have a civil conversation where she presents her arguments, you present yours, and see if you can find a common ground. A good back and forth is very healthy. [/quote] Sure it was said somewhat tongue in cheek. But it's not attacking. It is pointing out the lunacy of believing something "Because the Bible says so." It says a lot of things, like "An Eye for an Eye" then later on it says to "Turn the other cheek." So which is it? Also, if you believe every word the Bible says, then you believe that we all are paying for the sins of Adam and Eve. They were put in Paradise, told they would never want for anything just don't eat from that tree over there. They did, so we all got punished. If I were personally put into that situation, I would have chopped the tree down and burned the stump! It's like saying if I commit a crime every generation after me will be punished in the same fashion as I was. It makes no sense. I think he could use some of the words I said to get her from trying to justify hate and bigotry because she believes the Bible wants her to feel that way. God wants the "lost" to hear his words and know his love more than anyone. How can Christians expect to reach out to anyone when they are telling them God hates them? God gave his only Son for EVERYONE'S SINS. Not just the people that are Christians. Not just the people that believe a certain way. God created us all. Why would he hate even one of his own creations? Again, it makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1345473818' post='1148790'] Sure it was said somewhat tongue in cheek. But it's not attacking. It is pointing out the lunacy of believing something "Because the Bible says so." It says a lot of things, like "An Eye for an Eye" then later on it says to "Turn the other cheek." [/quote] As Ryan requested... not going to make it a religious debate. But, I assure you, that "pointing out the lunacy" of whatever she believes will be perceived by her as an attack. You can like that stance or not, but it is reality. If you don't approach it properly, and with a somewhat open mind, she'll get defensive and won't be equally open to discussion. Just my two cents... Immediately making the argument that a person's stance or position is "lunacy" or whatever isn't going to get any conversation moving in any direction toward an agreeable solution. I've not been married as long as a lot of people here but 16 years is enough to know that isn't the best approach... at least in my instance anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 Dude! Divorce her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1345475967' post='1148796'] Dude! Divorce her! [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1345475325' post='1148793'] As Ryan requested... not going to make it a religious debate. But, I assure you, that "pointing out the lunacy" of whatever she believes will be perceived by her as an attack. You can like that stance or not, but it is reality. If you don't approach it properly, and with a somewhat open mind, she'll get defensive and won't be equally open to discussion. Just my two cents... Immediately making the argument that a person's stance or position is "lunacy" or whatever isn't going to get any conversation moving in any direction toward an agreeable solution. I've not been married as long as a lot of people here but 16 years is enough to know that isn't the best approach... at least in my instance anyway. [/quote] It is not an attack when you point out that many men that were mentioned in the Bible had multiple wives and some even had multiple concubines including multiple wives. Some people do not know these things or realize these things. They only know what they were told or taught by their Church. It is not an attack when you point out that Jesus preached love, tolerance, acceptance and peace. He was not about hating anyone for any reason. He wanted his words to reach the lost and non-believers more than his followers and believers. I was not saying to call her a lunatic. I was saying to point out the lunacy of the thinking by pointing out other things the Bible says. And to point out it was written by men in a time when they thought the Earth was flat, thought the World was only a few hundred miles in each direction, had no other forms of information and the like. Surely you can decipher the difference? I figured Ryan knows his Wife and calling her thinking lunacy was not a way to go. But pointing out lunacy is. Like most conversations with anyone, it is about tact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-GoBengals- Posted August 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 thanks for the many responses, and thats a solid article jamie, I doubt she EVER goes to a church or EVER makes the kids go to a church, with two working parents and two boys both in sports and school, there isnt enough free time to even consider it. so it may have been a one time blow up, it may not, its tough to be the one to stir the pot if its not going to come up again, hell it didnt for 11 years, I have lots of talks with my boys on making the right decision, not being selfish, and making sure everyone is treated well. At least at this juncture I dont think they would benefit from any outside groups or events. Mostly becasue i dont want the fairy tales given as reasons to be a good person. I think thats my biggest gripe with the bible and the fake christians, is using the bible and god and heaven/hell as an excuse that they arent bad people or as a reason to do the right thing "do the right thing or else"... how about do the right things.. because ITS THE RIGHT THING.. i know i dont follow this, i have done some terrible things in my life, and i have paid for many of them, some I havent, but probably will. No matter how small the task or how few people would be affected, I try to act in a way that doesnt put my own selfishness ahead of others. there isnt much more to teaching children and teenagers how to behave than that. And you shouldnt need threats of hell or promises of heaven to be a decent person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1345476425' post='1148798'] Like most conversations with anyone, it is about tact. [/quote] Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='GoBengals' timestamp='1345476466' post='1148799'] there isnt much more to teaching children and teenagers how to behave than that. And you shouldnt need threats of hell or promises of heaven to be a decent person. [/quote] Truer words were never spoken, Ryan. If I were in your situation I would be concerned as well. I think at this point I would just chalk it up to her maybe being stressed out that day combined with your "attack" words you used in the conversation. I'd be inclined to just let it go for now and see what transpires going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 Ill pray for ya about it my man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1345472863' post='1148787'] Ryan - I'd suggest highly that Old is saying this tongue in cheek... in all seriousness, you go this route you'll get nowhere. Believe me, I've tried it! I've done the whole "you are to obey me bit..." I wouldn't attack what she believes, but would flesh out her thoughts and have a discussion about them. Have a civil conversation where she presents her arguments, you present yours, and see if you can find a common ground. A good back and forth is very healthy. [/quote] Not trying to get into a huge theological discussion but Ive never understood the husbands who use that be "wives be submissive to your husbands" verse, I mean the bible also says that husbands are to love their wives like Christ loved the church, Christ was never controlling of the church. Not that I'm so much saying you were, this is more general speak as I've got family that recently went through a ugly divorce from an abusive husband who was very controlling using that verse to justify it. I'm like did he even recognize the other verse about loving your wife like Christ loved the church? Because if he did.... I had a new testament class once where the professor explained the submissive verse as such...in every single fashion the couple is supposed to work together for a resolution that is mutual to both parties it's only when this is absolutely impossible should the wife be submissive. Meaning only when the two cant at all agree on the issue and if the issue is serious and not petty then that is when the wife is supposed to let the husband make the decision for the family. Now of course that is under the assumption that the husband is spiritually competent and healthy, which isnt always the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1345488624' post='1148839'] Not trying to get into a huge theological discussion but Ive never understood the husbands who use that be "wives be submissive to your husbands" verse, I mean the bible also says that husbands are to love their wives like Christ loved the church, Christ was never controlling of the church. Not that I'm so much saying you were, this is more general speak as I've got family that recently went through a ugly divorce from an abusive husband who was very controlling using that verse to justify it. I'm like did he even recognize the other verse about loving your wife like Christ loved the church? Because if he did.... I had a new testament class once where the professor explained the submissive verse as such...in every single fashion the couple is supposed to work together for a resolution that is mutual to both parties it's only when this is absolutely impossible should the wife be submissive. Meaning only when the two cant at all agree on the issue and if the issue is serious and not petty then that is when the wife is supposed to let the husband make the decision for the family. Now of course that is under the assumption that the husband is spiritually competent and healthy, which isnt always the case. [/quote] I agree with you... I've never seriously used it in an argument. The only time I've ever said it was basically after we'd already "argued", disagreed, etc. and I'd tongue-in-cheek say that just to rile her up a little... Take that specific quote from the Bible and I read it to mean that men need to be the man of the house. As you alluded to, ultimately, if an agreed upon decision can't be met then it falls to the man to make that tough decision. Assuming of course you use the bible as a means of conducting your day to day life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 Not related but I thought I'd share one of my favorite Christian "leader" (not sure he'd like that word) Shane Claiborne. [b] What If Jesus Meant All That Stuff?[/b] [color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] This radical Christian's ministry for the poor, The Simple Way, has gotten him in some trouble with his fellow Evangelicals. We asked him to address those who don't believe.[/size][/font][/color] [img]http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/AK/shane-claiborne-1209-lg.jpg[/img][b]To all my nonbelieving,[/b][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] sort-of-believing, and used-to-be-believing friends: I feel like I should begin with a confession. I am sorry that so often the biggest obstacle to God has been Christians. Christians who have had so much to say with our mouths and so little to show with our lives. I am sorry that so often we have forgotten the Christ of our Christianity.[/size][/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] Forgive us. Forgive us for the embarrassing things we have done in the name of God.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] The other night I headed into downtown Philly for a stroll with some friends from out of town. We walked down to Penn's Landing along the river, where there are street performers, artists, musicians. We passed a great magician who did some pretty sweet tricks like pour change out of his iPhone, and then there was a preacher. He wasn't quite as captivating as the magician. He stood on a box, yelling into a microphone, and beside him was a coffin with a fake dead body inside. He talked about how we are all going to die and go to hell if we don't know Jesus.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] Some folks snickered. Some told him to shut the hell up. A couple of teenagers tried to steal the dead body in the coffin. All I could do was think to myself, I want to jump up on a box beside him and yell at the top of my lungs, "God is not a monster." Maybe next time I will.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] The more I have read the Bible and studied the life of Jesus, the more I have become convinced that Christianity spreads best not through force but through fascination. But over the past few decades our Christianity, at least here in the United States, has become less and less fascinating. We have given the atheists less and less to disbelieve. And the sort of Christianity many of us have seen on TV and heard on the radio looks less and less like Jesus.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] At one point Gandhi was asked if he was a Christian, and he said, essentially, "I sure love Jesus, but the Christians seem so unlike their Christ." A recent study showed that the top three perceptions of Christians in the U. S. among young non-Christians are that Christians are 1) antigay, 2) judgmental, and 3) hypocritical. So what we have here is a bit of an image crisis, and much of that reputation is well deserved. That's the ugly stuff. And that's why I begin by saying that I'm sorry.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] Now for the good news.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] I want to invite you to consider that maybe the televangelists and street preachers are wrong — and that God really is love. Maybe the fruits of the Spirit really are beautiful things like peace, patience, kindness, joy, love, goodness, and not the ugly things that have come to characterize religion, or politics, for that matter. (If there is anything I have learned from liberals and conservatives, it's that you can have great answers and still be mean... and that just as important as being right is being nice.)[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] The Bible that I read says that God did not send Jesus to condemn the world but to save it... it was because "God so loved the world." That is the God I know, and I long for others to know. I did not choose to devote my life to Jesus because I was scared to death of hell or because I wanted crowns in heaven... but because he is good. For those of you who are on a sincere spiritual journey, I hope that you do not reject Christ because of Christians. We have always been a messed-up bunch, and somehow God has survived the embarrassing things we do in His name. At the core of our "Gospel" is the message that Jesus came "not [for] the healthy... but the sick." And if you choose Jesus, may it not be simply because of a fear of hell or hope for mansions in heaven.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] Don't get me wrong, I still believe in the afterlife, but too often all the church has done is promise the world that there is life after death and use it as a ticket to ignore the hells around us. I am convinced that the Christian Gospel has as much to do with this life as the next, and that the message of that Gospel is not just about going up when we die but about bringing God's Kingdom down. It was Jesus who taught us to pray that God's will be done "on earth as it is in heaven." On earth.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] One of Jesus' most scandalous stories is the story of the Good Samaritan. As sentimental as we may have made it, the original story was about a man who gets beat up and left on the side of the road. A priest passes by. A Levite, the quintessential religious guy, also passes by on the other side (perhaps late for a meeting at church). And then comes the Samaritan... you can almost imagine a snicker in the Jewish crowd. Jews did not talk to Samaritans, or even walk through Samaria. But the Samaritan stops and takes care of the guy in the ditch and is lifted up as the hero of the story. I'm sure some of the listeners were ticked. According to the religious elite, Samaritans did not keep the right rules, and they did not have sound doctrine... but Jesus shows that true faith has to work itself out in a way that is Good News to the most bruised and broken person lying in the ditch.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] It is so simple, but the pious forget this lesson constantly. God may indeed be evident in a priest, but God is just as likely to be at work through a Samaritan or a prostitute. In fact the Scripture is brimful of God using folks like a lying prostitute named Rahab, an adulterous king named David... at one point God even speaks to a guy named Balaam through his donkey. Some say God spoke to Balaam through his ass and has been speaking through asses ever since. So if God should choose to use us, then we should be grateful but not think too highly of ourselves. And if upon meeting someone we think God could never use, we should think again.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] After all, Jesus says to the religious elite who looked down on everybody else: "The tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the Kingdom ahead of you." And we wonder what got him killed?[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] I have a friend in the UK who talks about "dirty theology" — that we have a God who is always using dirt to bring life and healing and redemption, a God who shows up in the most unlikely and scandalous ways. After all, the whole story begins with God reaching down from heaven, picking up some dirt, and breathing life into it. At one point, Jesus takes some mud, spits in it, and wipes it on a blind man's eyes to heal him. (The priests and producers of anointing oil were not happy that day.)[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] In fact, the entire story of Jesus is about a God who did not just want to stay "out there" but who moves into the neighborhood, a neighborhood where folks said, "Nothing good could come." It is this Jesus who was accused of being a glutton and drunkard and rabble-rouser for hanging out with all of society's rejects, and who died on the imperial cross of Rome reserved for bandits and failed messiahs. This is why the triumph over the cross was a triumph over everything ugly we do to ourselves and to others. It is the final promise that love wins.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] It is this Jesus who was born in a stank manger in the middle of a genocide. That is the God that we are just as likely to find in the streets as in the sanctuary, who can redeem revolutionaries and tax collectors, the oppressed and the oppressors... a God who is saving some of us from the ghettos of poverty, and some of us from the ghettos of wealth.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] In closing, to those who have closed the door on religion — I was recently asked by a non-Christian friend if I thought he was going to hell. I said, "I hope not. It will be hard to enjoy heaven without you." If those of us who believe in God do not believe God's grace is big enough to save the whole world... well, we should at least pray that it is.[/size][/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] Your brother,[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2] Shane[/size][/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2]Read more: [url="http://www.esquire.com/features/best-and-brightest-2009/shane-claiborne-1209#ixzz247G0Le9n"]http://www.esquire.com/features/best-and-brightest-2009/shane-claiborne-1209#ixzz247G0Le9n[/url][/size][/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 Good luck, Go. It makes me think how lucky I am that my g/f and I fight about stupid shit and not foundational issues like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 my favorite thing about your post is that your kid is named Carson, you are the best GB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1345494611' post='1148864'] my favorite thing about your post is that your kid is named Carson, you are the best GB [/quote] I hear he's demanding he be traded to a different family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1345494673' post='1148865'] I hear he's demanding he be traded to a different family. [/quote] 100% allowance driven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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