Jamie_B Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1345494957' post='1148867'] 100% allowance driven [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 First off - what really angers me about your story was this tidbit: [quote]her mom told her not to let me force her to not get things she wants, I don't care if she is happy, and loaned her the money to buy the dog then and there.. Then she complained that she wasn't home to take care of it enough every time we were together, then told her she had to get rid of the dog, or dump me, then she told her if she didn't dump me she had to move out...[/quote] That is NEVER ok. Parents should be there to help their kids, certainly not to butt into their relationships! Anyway, not the point of your story, I know. Most of what I've read from the others is what I would say as well. You're a logical guy, you're also a passionate guy. It's hard to separate the two - but like Vol said, even if you do think her opinions are batshit crazy, nothing good will come from telling her that, or being generally opinionated on her opinions. It's fine to disagree with her, but do yourself a favor and try to leave the name calling or making her feel stupid out of it. Believe me, I am king of this area, and I am really trying to get better about it, but it's REALLY hard sometimes when you want to say "what the fuck are you thinking?!?!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1345488624' post='1148839'] [b]Not trying to get into a huge theological discussion but Ive never understood the husbands who use that be "wives be submissive to your husbands" verse, I mean the bible also says that husbands are to love their wives like Christ loved the church, Christ was never controlling of the church. [/b] [/quote] I am about 100% sure Jesus did not start the church... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1345502486' post='1148889'] I am about 100% sure Jesus did not start the church... [/quote] Im not sure I said he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1345503778' post='1148894'] Im not sure I said he did. [/quote] Ok, to be more exact.. It was started after he died... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1345504052' post='1148899'] Ok, to be more exact.. It was started after he died... [/quote] The first church were his decepiles, as I recall Peter was the first pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1345504232' post='1148901'] The first church were his decepiles, as I recall Peter was the first pope. [/quote] Yeah... I guess this is where it gets strange for me... I don't think "the church" really resembles what he envisioned, but that's a debate for another thread.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 Id also have to look it up as I'm not near a bible but I think the context on that is all of his followers. I'll find and give you the context tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1345504469' post='1148902'] Yeah... I guess this is where it gets strange for me... I don't think "the church" really resembles what he envisioned, but that's a debate for another thread.... [/quote] The church as I've always had it described is where any two or more gather to talk about him. Not so much any specific building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1345504657' post='1148904'] The church as I've always had it described is where any two or more gather to talk about him. Not so much any specific building. [/quote] I'm referring more to the institution.. And I consider what you are describing as "fellowship". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 A variety of thoughts, FWIW: Folks are shaped and conditioned by their upbringing. That means both good and bad, as well as conscious and subconscious influences. Some of that baggage is a light burden and a joy to carry; some of it is unpleasant nastiness. This is true for everyone and yet the specific circumstances are unique for each individual. What is the purpose of life? Why bother? Just as there is a tendency in news reporting to focus on the "bad" while often glossing over the "good," a similar tendency often affects our behavior. I think it is worthwhile to spend a little extra effort to identify and celebrate that which we find good in our lives. Profound love, the kind of love that celebrates and is not merely a form of "property relations" between two people (which signifies a dominant/subdominant relationship) is generally the kind of love which two people share about some outside, external elements of life. A shared appreciation for those things which are "outside of one's skin" can be a binding force which endures and makes it possible to ride out the rough times. The monotheisms tend to describe this concept of love as [i]agape[/i] (in the ancient Greek) or as [i]charitas[/i] (in its Latin form.) The three major western religions have done a great service to mankind by devoting a lot of thought to this kind of love and in trying to illuminate ways to put this kind of love into social action. I'm sure this is true of other religions, too, but I don't know much about them. In any case, we have a lot of shared history and traditions of how this kind of love makes a difference in the world, be it between two people or larger sections of a society and culture. We are in tough times right now. One can argue that we are always in tough times, especially from the perspective of a person who might feel isolated or unduly burdened with stress and difficulties. One can't ignore these perceptions and sometimes our cups runneth over in bad ways. As a general rule, it seems to me that the more constricted one feels--the shorter the horizon of our individual human landscape--the more challenging certain external obstacles can seem. We all reach out to connect with the "real world." Humans aren't described as social beings for no reason. Our contentment, our "value," our reasons for being are intimately bound with those externalities which influence our life. It behooves us to be aware of the ugliness in the world so we can be prepared to cope with it; but I also believe that it is our very nature to strive for Good, according to our lights. We often make the latter an afterthought in our day-to-day existence and thus stuff gets out of balance, making the bad even worse--at least in our own minds. A little side note now: One of my pet peeves over the past decade is how the wonderful, transitive concept of [i]freedom[/i] has been turned into a mere noun--a thing, a base object. One notices this most particularly when one hears talk about our [i]freedoms[/i], plural. To me, it is another sign of the banalization of society. The concept of freedom is truly liberating, not merely because it suggests possibility, but because it is only bound by the laws of the universe. To explore freedom is to challenge convention in lawful ways. It is a [i]creative force[/i] which considers the lawfulness of the universe and seeks to elaborate our understanding of that lawfulness, or to even bring into being new, more fully realized aspects of that lawfulness in ways which make life more livable. It is a truly beautiful notion. To delimit the idea of freedom into some kind of numerable accountant's ledger is disheartening, at least to me. "One potato, two potatoes, three potatoes, four. Five freedoms, six freedoms, seven freedoms, more." When one thinks about creativity and the lawfulness of the universe, one thinks of science. But one also thinks of more than science, too. From whence [i]Beauty[/i]? What is it about the universe which makes Beauty itself a part of it? Art seeks beauty; music seeks beauty; and yes, even religion and spirituality seeks beauty. Life. Seeks. Beauty. Because it must. The universe [i]demands[/i] it. But isn't all this lawfulness stuff confining? Doesn't it constrain us, keep us from doing whatever we damn well please? It can seem that way, especially if one views the universe as some sort of reified thingyness--just a master list of Do's and Don't's. But science, and by science I mean a well-defined body of knowledge, isn't merely a numeration of "the things we know." Science is a framework, a toolbox, a wonderful basket which holds all kinds of treasures which we humans can thrust our hands into to discover all kinds of new things. Science is creative. Religion, at its best, is also a well-defined body of knowledge. The traditions built up over thousands and thousands of years of human endeavor are distilled, clarified, and both received by, as well as offered to, the rest of humanity, as a blessing. In this sense, religion is creative, too. The banal versions of science and religion have gotten the same kind of treatment that the concept of freedom has. Whether it be through a reduction to crass empirical materialism in the case of science or a specified "god-given" list of proscriptions and prohibitions in the case of religion, the ultimate outcome of each is to limit that which is best about our character as humans--our ability to be truly creative, motivated by a profound idea of Love. The universe is Love. Each person has to fit themselves into a world they had no choice in creating. You were not a causal factor before you were born. And yet, and isn't this terrific and wonderful, during the time you are walking on this planet, you do have the freedom to be a causal influence of what comes after you are gone. Expand one's horizon; chart the uncharted; [i]try[/i] to love and [i]know[/i] why it is [i]good[/i] to [i]love.[/i] That's freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 im the master of bible questions ask me anything, i have defeated el flockoe in bible trivia matches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1345508689' post='1148943'] im the master of bible questions ask me anything, i have defeated el flockoe in bible trivia matches [/quote] No, that was SImpon's Trivia, and I kicked your ass... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 homer, that's some hippy shit if i ever saw it. all i saw is the "universe is love" and I got real mad yall need to learn how to make tl;dr posts so you can get some of my contributuions. i will hlep your life, if you let me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 [quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1345508799' post='1148946'] No, that was SImpon's Trivia, and I kicked your ass... [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1345509175' post='1148956'] homer, that's some hippy shit if i ever saw it. all i saw is the "universe is love" and I got real mad yall need to learn how to make tl;dr posts so you can get some of my contributuions. i will hlep your life, if you let me [/quote] Child, please. First of all, if I may indulge my pedantry, it's "hippie" not "hippy", and secondly, Homer is right. From something he wrote me long ago in a PM that stays with me still, the essence of a lot of what he is saying is "your existence creates ripples in the Universal pool, so it's important that you be the best person you can be". And shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1345509175' post='1148956'] homer, that's some hippy shit if i ever saw it. all i saw is the "universe is love" and I got real mad yall need to learn how to make tl;dr posts so you can get some of my contributuions. [b]i will hlep your life, if you let me[/b] [/quote] I read that as "i will hlep your wife, if you let me" and for a second I thought you were getting kinky. Okay, sheesh...a tl;dr for you: Be New Testament, not Old Testament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 [quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1345509729' post='1148971'] I read that as "i will hlep your wife, if you let me" and for a second I thought you were getting kinky. Okay, sheesh...a tl;dr for you: Be New Testament, not [b]Old Testament.[/b] [/quote] That's the biggest thing with Christianity for me.. That fact they hang on to that old testament.. But not all of it, basically just all that scary shit that is used to control people without all the cumbersome trappings like Kosher.. And I totally dug what you said there.. hence the +1 I gave you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1345509985' post='1148978'] That's the biggest thing with Christianity for me.. That fact they hang on to that old testament.. But not all of it, basically just all that scary shit that is used to control people without all the cumbersome trappings like Kosher.. And I totally dug what you said there.. hence the +1 I gave you. [/quote] I am somewhat Christian, and I basically discard most of the Old Testament out of hand. God was a dick in the Old Testament....a jealous, vengeful prick. The New Testament is really what God should be about. I believe that through Jesus (although the "God manifests himself as a human" story predates Christianity by a LOT), God experienced what it was like to be a flawed human and that God himself learned a thing or two. I do not believe in God as being utterly omnipotent or omniscient, if he/she/it exists at all. I prefer to think of God as a cosmic traveler, a "setter of things in motion", if you will. What convinces me time and again of some kind of ordering, higher power is the vastness of the Universe, its complexity, our inability to really understand concepts like gravity and how the Universe is an ordered chaotic system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 My two cents.... If she truly wants to raise your boys as Christians then they will be taught to do the right thing/be good people anyways.... I don't know what your relationship is with your wife and I wont try to even guess... this could be a culmination of things for all I know... but, When I first started reading this post I thought "My god! What if she sees this!" Referring to anything she says as crazy or idiotic whether directly or indirectly is counterproductive even if it is crazy and idiotic... It takes the conversation to a bad place... stay calm and use logic.... My advice would be watch the religion thing closely... sit your boys down and talk to them about it. Don't just use logic with your wife... Use it with your boys as well.. Teach them directly to respect everyone no matter race, sexuality etc... Your boys have minds of their own... their opinions will change over time through life's experiences.... I really think this only becomes a problem is if your wife tries to force beliefs on them that are not of tolerance and love..... I guess what I am saying... try your best to raise your boys right and don' t borrow trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1345506055' post='1148920'] I'm referring more to the institution.. And I consider what you are describing as "fellowship". [/quote] It can be, but that is the actual definition of what a church is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 [quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1345509729' post='1148971'] I read that as "i will hlep your wife, if you let me" and for a second I thought you were getting kinky. [/quote] im on board with this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1345509985' post='1148978'] That's the biggest thing with Christianity for me.. That fact they hang on to that old testament.. But not all of it, basically just all that scary shit that is used to control people without all the cumbersome trappings like Kosher.. And I totally dug what you said there.. hence the +1 I gave you. [/quote] I tend to take the OT as the back story that sets up the NT, while it's important, the NT is where the heart is for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1345513490' post='1149017'] It can be, but that is the actual definition of what a church is. [/quote] Really? That's not what I was taught in bible school.. [b] church[/b] noun 1. a [color=#333333]building[/color] for [color=#333333]public[/color] Christian worship. [color=#333333]2.[/color] public worship of God or a [color=#333333]religious[/color] service in such a building: to attend church regularly. 3. ( sometimes initial [color=#333333]capital[/color] letter ) the whole body of Christian believers; [color=#333333]Christendom.[/color] [color=#333333]4.[/color] ( sometimes [color=#333333]initial[/color] capital letter ) any division of this body [color=#333333]professing[/color] the [color=#333333]same[/color] creed and acknowledging the same ecclesiastical [color=#333333]authority;[/color] a Christian denomination: the Methodist [color=#333333]Church.[/color] 5.[color=#333333] that[/color] part of [color=#333333]the[/color] [color=#333333]whole[/color] Christian body, or of a particular [color=#333333]denomination,[/color] [color=#333333]belonging[/color] to the same city, country, nation, etc. When not referring to the building you are usually talking about a collected faith of a specific doctrine or set of beliefs. IE Catholic Church, Methodist Church, or your local Baptist Church (referring to the collection of worshipers and not the structure) I was taught the definition of Fellowship as being the relationship between Christians and the act of getting together to share faith in Christ etc. If you are gathering to worship in some sort of organized way then that is where I believe you cross over into becoming a "Church".. I believe though that Jesus spoke against praying in "public", and repetition of prayer. 2 things which I believe most churches violate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1345514664' post='1149028'] Really? That's not what I was taught in bible school.. [b] church[/b] noun 1. a [color=#333333]building[/color] for [color=#333333]public[/color] Christian worship. [color=#333333]2.[/color] public worship of God or a [color=#333333]religious[/color] service in such a building: to attend church regularly. 3. ( sometimes initial [color=#333333]capital[/color] letter ) the whole body of Christian believers; [color=#333333]Christendom.[/color] [color=#333333]4.[/color] ( sometimes [color=#333333]initial[/color] capital letter ) any division of this body [color=#333333]professing[/color] the [color=#333333]same[/color] creed and acknowledging the same ecclesiastical [color=#333333]authority;[/color] a Christian denomination: the Methodist [color=#333333]Church.[/color] 5.[color=#333333] that[/color] part of [color=#333333]the[/color] [color=#333333]whole[/color] Christian body, or of a particular [color=#333333]denomination,[/color] [color=#333333]belonging[/color] to the same city, country, nation, etc. When not referring to the building you are usually talking about a collected faith of a specific doctrine or set of beliefs. IE Catholic Church, Methodist Church, or your local Baptist Church (referring to the collection of worshipers and not the structure) I was taught the definition of Fellowship as being the relationship between Christians and the act of getting together to share faith in Christ etc. If you are gathering to worship in some sort of organized way then that is where I believe you cross over into becoming a "Church".. I believe though that Jesus spoke against praying in "public", and repetition of prayer. 2 things which I believe most churches violate. [/quote] The definition Ive been taught comes from Matthew 18:20 - [color=#001320][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."[/background][/font][/color] [background=rgb(249, 253, 255)][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][color="#001320"]That is what Ive been taught church is when I took that new testament class I referred to earlier. Which makes sense with the first church being the disciples, as there was no formal building for them to meet in that time. [/color][/font][/background] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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