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Accountability and moves during the bye week


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What moves do you think will be made, if any, during the bye week. Will anyone be held accountable for the current state of the team?

Marvin - I'm fully convinced he needs to go but it's more likely he stays through the end of the contract. He did great things for the organization but doesn't appear to have the ability to take the next step or have sustained success.

Maualuga - Does he get benched? The problem is Burfict is our only good LB.

Gruden - Seems the league has figured him out. Some very questionable calls in key moments.

Zimmer - Most disappointing aspect of the team. The D literally carried this team to the playoffs last year and they are now a liability.

DB's - Hopefully Kirkpatrick is ready soon.


My guess is nothing big happens and we keep shoveling. Maybe Kirkpatrick gets some starts but everything else remains status quo.
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I don't think anything rash should happen. There is that .0001% chance we could go 6-3 the rest of the way and somehow sneak into a wildcard. We've seen how good this team looks when it can run the ball.

I do agree that this off-season we really, really, need to get some backers. TOP last night was hugely skewed towards the Steelers because the third down defense was horrendous.
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I think the biggest changes will be Marvin Jones as the #2 which would have happened last night it seems) and Kirkpatrick and Allen getting playing time in the secondary.


Hopefully the other change is Cook back at center, but I wouldn't expect that for at least 3 weeks.


I don't think they'll move Burfict mid-season, and I don't forsee any changes on the Dline (though I don't get why Dunlap hasn't played much the last two weeks).
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[quote name='gatorclaws' timestamp='1350912002' post='1173640']
What moves do you think will be made, if any, during the bye week. Will anyone be held accountable for the current state of the team?

Marvin - I'm fully convinced he needs to go but it's more likely he stays through the end of the contract. He did great things for the organization but doesn't appear to have the ability to take the next step or have sustained success.

Maualuga - Does he get benched? The problem is Burfict is our only good LB.

Gruden - Seems the league has figured him out. Some very questionable calls in key moments.

Zimmer - Most disappointing aspect of the team. The D literally carried this team to the playoffs last year and they are now a liability.

DB's - Hopefully Kirkpatrick is ready soon.


My guess is nothing big happens and we keep shoveling. Maybe Kirkpatrick gets some starts but everything else remains status quo.
[/quote]

Honestly... What can happen?

We are who we are....

I just hope there are no major injuries and we build next year.... but things dont look so good for this year... we lost to a very average team.
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[quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1350913515' post='1173650']
Honestly... What can happen?

We are who we are....

I just hope there are no major injuries and we build next year.... but things dont look so good for this year... [b]we lost to a very average team.[/b]
[/quote]


sadly we live in an era of the NFL where Elite QB's can carry teams despite average talent around them.

Right now the Bengals don't have an elite QB, and the rest of the team isn't good enough to make up for it.
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By the way, I just dusted off my HP-41C scientific calculator and did some upper end math. Based on the number of teams in the league and the percentage that win a playoff game every year I did some checking. Keep in mind this calculation will be a little off due to the addition and subtraction and re-addition of teams the last 22 years but it should be fairly close.

In essence, the odds of not winning a playoff game in 22 years is between 1 and 2%.

Granted, the odds are not a constant variable given different programs are run significantly better than others but in the age of free agency, salary cap and parity, the odds should not move DRAMATICALLY unless there is real incompetency in the front office.

Now the hard part, lets be brutally honest about this team under Marvin. In my mind, he has had only 1 very good season since he has been here. He has had a couple of average to slightly above average teams but the reality is this: The 2005 team was the only very good team he has ever had. Furthermore, it was a very good team, not great. If you check out our season point differential you will see that 9 teams had a better total point spread than we did. Yes, we had an awesome offense that year but we gave up 350 which equated to almost 22 points a game. The 2009 team was above average but lost 4 of its last 5 games including the playoff lost to the fucking Jets. Last year the team just wiggled its way into the playoffs which it has a 37.5% chance of doing each year.

Marvin has done a fair job, nothing more.
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[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1350917234' post='1173666']
Do you guys realize that this game was more significant than you think. The rest of the season, home games will not sell out, and more than likely be blacked out. So yeah, that pretty much sucks.
[/quote]

Denver and New York will be sold out but there will be a lot of Donkey and Giants fans at the games.
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[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1350918967' post='1173673']
Maybe people will cancel their tickets that were charged on their credit card?

:shrug:
[/quote]

Better yet, mail your season tickets back in so Mike Brown can resell them at half price and further increase his profit.

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[quote name='gatorclaws' timestamp='1350912002' post='1173640']
What moves do you think will be made, if any, during the bye week. Will anyone be held accountable for the current state of the team?

Marvin - I'm fully convinced he needs to go but it's more likely he stays through the end of the contract. He did great things for the organization but doesn't appear to have the ability to take the next step or have sustained success.

Maualuga - Does he get benched? The problem is Burfict is our only good LB.

Gruden - Seems the league has figured him out. Some very questionable calls in key moments.

Zimmer - Most disappointing aspect of the team. The D literally carried this team to the playoffs last year and they are now a liability.

DB's - Hopefully Kirkpatrick is ready soon.


My guess is nothing big happens and we keep shoveling. Maybe Kirkpatrick gets some starts but everything else remains status quo.
[/quote]

i posted in the game thread but i probably wont bother to go back there so I will comment again here on some of the same topics.

there is nothing wrong with gruden or Zimmer, coordinators cant make shitty players play well. Gruden and marvin and mike and at this juncture, the ENTIRE PLANET, is well aware that Dalton isnt going to come out and throw the ball all over you. if you play disciplined, and mind your responsibilities on defense, you can hold the offense under 20 points. Our defense is required to hand the offense the ball in scoring position to get a good chunk of our points. Gruden doesnt have the luxury of a QB to run consistent medium and deep routes. and have you seen Andy throw medium and deep passes? Aj Green is a shining pro bowler because of the passes he magically catches. Most WR's dont make as many diving first down catches,slow down in traffic, stop the route short and leap 36 inches to catch, in double coverage pull down catches in an entire season as AJ has made in the first 7 weeks.

What Gruden has masked for 24 weeks about Daltons shortcomings is nothing short of a miracle. But the Dolphins, a slightly above average defense, stayed disciplined in their roles and did it, thw browns did the same, and not only stayed in the game but sealed the deal by capitalizing on the situation with turnovers, turnovers for points, and turnovers to seal the game. The steelers are a broken, battered team, not many teams escape a game against the steelers without ben breaking a few sacks and hitting a few key bomb plays, they ropped 2 TD's, and they also dropped 2 picks, in fact every team has dropped a few picks a game against us... even playing as conservative as we do.

You need good players to have a good team. especially when you play good teams. I look at the division leaders, and in the past i would think "man, if we were in the A/NFC whatever we would own that shit!" now i look, and we arent better than any of them. and in the AFC i look at all of the 2nd place division teams, and I dont see anyone we clearly and obviously beat.

Your division leading QB's: Brady, Flacco, Shaub, Manning, we cant hang with any of those 4 guys in a shoot out. So I look at 2nd place teams QB's, Tanneheill, Rivers, Big Ben, Luck, We cant maybe hang with Tannehill, but they DID beat us, so even in that set, we cant really argue we cant hang with any of them either. Which puts us at best, 9th, I am basing my opinion here on the fact that the NFL is offense based, "defense wins championships" has been disproven by the pats alone so many times its not even funny. So based on offensive power. we are at 9th for this argument.

Now lets look across the other teams. Here is where you find a WHOLE lot of guys who are about as effective as andy dalton, you have your flash int he pan Sanchez, Fitzpatrick, Hasselbeck, those guys who can throw for 4 TD's or four INT's in any given game. Then the class I put dalton in: Weeden, Dalton, Gabbert, Cassel, these are guys who need more than one superstar around them to succeed in the league, they will never, EVER be "the guy" who leads the team and carries them on his shoulders.

If i am assuming the nfl is going to continue to be an offensive powerhouse league, I am sitting here thinking, and as I have expressed for over a year now, that Dalton is a bandaid, he was a smart(the kid is fucking smart, he knows his reads and defenses very well, he is Jon Kitna 2.0) safe pick, someone to come in and NOT fuck things up.

Problem is, the defense carried the team last year, the offense "got by" But now the entire league has 24 games of film on how we continued to "get by" and after 4 weeks this season, the blueprint is out there and we wont be "getting by" on offense, and with the defense having its own troubles, especially at DB, we are going to need to score points, 25-30 points per game to make the playoffs..

and thats not something we are going to be able to do with andy Dalton. The short safe pass game hampers the run game with linebackers not getting drown down the field and out of run lanes, they cover the 5 yard route and are still in position to make plays against the run.

firing a bunch of coaches doesnt make Dalton a better QB, and it doesnt make our 100 yard old, acl torn, crippled DB's young and healthy again, its not going to make green-ellis turn into barry sanders, look at his time in NE, he was successful because they were a passing team and he was a powerful reliable back. he was never a feature of the offense. I dont know why we picked him up, he doesnt fit our scheme much. he isnt quick enough to hit the side screens as a RB and get to the corner for 8-10 yards, which would spread the linebackers out and keep them at least partially honest..

Losing fuckin sucks, and I am tired of hoping we sneak into the playoffs..

I would love to see Sanu in a true passing attack, he is quick and sure handed. He and Gresham would compliment green amazingly IN SPACE. but no one has any space, the high percentage throwing lane is only 10 yards deep, then hoping we lure them to sleep on a deep pass or two per game..

cutting people or firing people just sets you back at this stage of the season. If we can get Kirkpatrick in there after the bye and slow some teams down further, we may be able to get to 8-8 to finish the year, which is a shitty place to be, likely out of the playoffs and with a crappy draft pick..

just my thoughts....
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[quote name='Dalton4HOF' timestamp='1350919814' post='1173676']
just my thoughts....
[/quote]

good stuff and I agree on pretty much all of it. Sometimes I get stuck on wanting to see change for the sake of change but that doesn't equate to improving the team. Just didn't expect my playoff hopes to be squashed before November.
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[quote name='B.A.B.' timestamp='1350920655' post='1173680']
The issue isn't Dalton. The issue is nobody is able to fucking get open. Ever.
[/quote]


this. Green was doubled, Jones hurt, not sure where Gresham was, so you only have Hawkins play 18% of the snaps when he's been playing about 75%? That's not gonna work.
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[quote name='B.A.B.' timestamp='1350920655' post='1173680']
The issue isn't Dalton. The issue is nobody is able to fucking get open. Ever.
[/quote]

Even if Dalton isn't the issue, he's not the answer either. Similar to what 1181 said, this is a league where you sometimes need your QB to carry you through bad times and Dalton isn't really capable of that.

At least Dalton is doing $50 autograph sessions.
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[quote name='B.A.B.' timestamp='1350920655' post='1173680']
The issue isn't Dalton. The issue is nobody is able to fucking get open. Ever.
[/quote]

what are you watching?

what offense have you ever seen where 90% of the passes are under 10 yards?

and they even showed its quick passes, holding the ball 1.5 seconds, etc, they literally showed you all of these things, i will literally take screen shots of the game if you need me to, he isnt going through progressions and then throwing a 5 yard pass, he is simply only throwing a 5 yard pass. You have been on a sideline of a football game countless times, you have seen with your own eyes, in person, how crowded the first 10 yards off the LOS are, the passing lane is shorter, since you arent lofting the ball well over defenders hands and heads, there are 7-8 guys standing there already, so not only do you have the coverage guys, but other linebackers are in the lanes as well.

if you want guys open, you need to run deeper routes, guys arent even getting into routes before passes are thrown.

No one is waiting for guys to get open and THEN throwing a short pass, its a short pass by design. all of the games are available in 30 minute action packe bundles... waste and hour and a half of your day and watch the last three games.

If there is anything people should know about me after the last 8 years, is that im not shy about blasting receivers, we have one great one and a bunch of average ones, we should be much better on offense, but we arent, and my above is just my opinion on what i have watched the last 24 weeks.

Look at the end of the cleveland game just watch the 4th qtr. its sad, dump off passes are thrown befor guys are even getting into their routes, we spread 4 wide and hope the middle opened up for peerman...

JMO
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Here's what I want to see:
Sanu playing MUCH more
Gruden not allowing Marvin to influence his playcalls, but Gruden himself needs to get his act together a little bit
Allen, Kirpatrick and Hall as the top 3 CB's with Adam Jones next in line. Newman is old man.
Plays designed to get the ball to Hawkins in space
Dunlap plays more than the 30% of snaps he's gotten here lately (why?)
Peerman getting touches along with Leonard. Both are more dynamic than BJGE. Sad commentary when Brian Leonard is more dynamic than our starting RB
Zimmer - wtf? Soft coverages, no bumping at the line, idiotic schematics when it comes to blitzes, ZERO pressure on opposing QB's the last 3 wks
Rey needs to be benched. He's completely lost confidence. A liability. Burfict and Howard may be the only serviceable LB'ers as of right now for next year.
Dalton - wow....where to start. Nevermind, I won't go there. Let's just say he's not a franchise QB IMO. His limitations are so apparent and hinder this offense from really shining. If I was AJ Green, I'd start to get upset that my talents won't be utilized to their potential because of the guy throwing the ball.
DLine inconsistency has to improve
Probably other things I can't think of right now in my Hulk rage
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How about playing your players? I'm sorry, but you drafted a guy in the first round to play cornerback for you. If you're raving about his play in practice, then play him in a game! You cannot tell me that we would have been worse in pass defense last night with Dre Kirkpatrick out there. It's just Marvin babying his players and lacking the fortitude necessary to win consistently.

You spent 9 million dollars on Jason Allen and he's not good enough healthy to crack the gameday 45? That's completely unacceptable!

How in the world, after all this time is Pat Sims still not able to get onto the field? he was a free agent and you signed him back to the team and he can't even play. he got hurt almost a calendar year ago! You're run defense is porous and you can't get you're best run defender close to being on the field. Terrell popped his achilles 6 months ago and he's already out there getting sacks!

I have always been a proponent of Marvin being the coach here because I have felt that he is the best that the Bengals could ever get, and perhaps to an extent I still feel this way sadly. But after the last 3 weeks, I can no longer defend him. He is a god-awful head coach. Only at Pittsburgh in 05 has this team ever come out in a must-wine game against a good team and played well in route to victory. How can you look so dull in the biggest game of the season? Then again, how could you lose to a rookie 3rd string QB in the first round of the playoffs by way of blowout.

How could Marvin Lewis, a supposed defensive genius watch Rey Maualuga every day and feel comfortable with him starting at MLB going into a season? This alone is a fire-able offense. I'm sorry, but you can't tell me putting Vinny Rey in at WLB and moving Burfict to the middle is going to make our LB play any worse.

I know we may not get somebody better, but I do know we will never get consistently better with Marvin Lewis. 10 years is enough time to make that judgement. He's a complete incompetent.
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[quote name='Dalton4HOF' timestamp='1350921282' post='1173686']
what are you watching?

what offense have you ever seen where 90% of the passes are under 10 yards?

and they even showed its quick passes, holding the ball 1.5 seconds, etc, they literally showed you all of these things, i will literally take screen shots of the game if you need me to, he isnt going through progressions and then throwing a 5 yard pass, he is simply only throwing a 5 yard pass. You have been on a sideline of a football game countless times, you have seen with your own eyes, in person, how crowded the first 10 yards off the LOS are, the passing lane is shorter, since you arent lofting the ball well over defenders hands and heads, there are 7-8 guys standing there already, so not only do you have the coverage guys, but other linebackers are in the lanes as well.

if you want guys open, you need to run deeper routes, guys arent even getting into routes before passes are thrown.

No one is waiting for guys to get open and THEN throwing a short pass, its a short pass by design. all of the games are available in 30 minute action packe bundles... waste and hour and a half of your day and watch the last three games.

If there is anything people should know about me after the last 8 years, is that im not shy about blasting receivers, we have one great one and a bunch of average ones, we should be much better on offense, but we arent, and my above is just my opinion on what i have watched the last 24 weeks.

Look at the end of the cleveland game just watch the 4th qtr. its sad, dump off passes are thrown befor guys are even getting into their routes, we spread 4 wide and hope the middle opened up for peerman...

JMO
[/quote]

This should be very apparent to anyone watching. The end of the Cleveland game was a little bit of a special situation as the middle of the field was WIDE OPEN and Peerman was getting almost 10 yds per play but yes, your overall point stands and I agree very much. Let plays develop before hitting Gresham for 3 yds. OLine needs to improve pass protection if this is to happen also but they've given him enough time to let a play develop.
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[quote name='Madieu Superstar' timestamp='1350921665' post='1173690']
How about playing your players? I'm sorry, but you drafted a guy in the first round to play cornerback for you. If you're raving about his play in practice, then play him in a game! You cannot tell me that we would have been worse in pass defense last night with Dre Kirkpatrick out there. It's just Marvin babying his players and lacking the fortitude necessary to win consistently.

You spent 9 million dollars on Jason Allen and he's not good enough healthy to crack the gameday 45? That's completely unacceptable!

How in the world, after all this time is Pat Sims still not able to get onto the field? he was a free agent and you signed him back to the team and he can't even play. he got hurt almost a calendar year ago! You're run defense is porous and you can't get you're best run defender close to being on the field. Terrell popped his achilles 6 months ago and he's already out there getting sacks!

I have always been a proponent of Marvin being the coach here because I have felt that he is the best that the Bengals could ever get, and perhaps to an extent I still feel this way sadly. But after the last 3 weeks, I can no longer defend him. He is a god-awful head coach. Only at Pittsburgh in 05 has this team ever come out in a must-wine game against a good team and played well in route to victory. How can you look so dull in the biggest game of the season? Then again, how could you lose to a rookie 3rd string QB in the first round of the playoffs by way of blowout.

How could Marvin Lewis, a supposed defensive genius watch Rey Maualuga every day and feel comfortable with him starting at MLB going into a season? This alone is a fire-able offense. I'm sorry, but you can't tell me putting Vinny Rey in at WLB and moving Burfict to the middle is going to make our LB play any worse.

I know we may not get somebody better, but I do know we will never get consistently better with Marvin Lewis. 10 years is enough time to make that judgement. He's a complete incompetent.
[/quote]

i hate marvin more than many, but i think there is something you are missing here. raving about an injured palyer in practice is PR bullshit, what else would one say? "meh, still hurt, next question" or "he could probably play, but it would be a lot safer to sit him another week, give him the bye and come back after the bye, giving him 2 more weeks to get set while only missin 1 more game"

that wouldnt exactly sit well with the fans, eh? the steelers only scored 24 points, half the league is AVERAGING that many points per game. 14 teams(almost half) is AVERAGING 24+ points per game.

and the INT gave them the ball on our 29, sucks we couldnt hold them to a fieldgoal, but kirkpatrick wouldnt have been covering Miller on the TD pass anyway.. so no, i dont think kirkpatrick would have been much help, maualuga is enough of a coverage liability to not realistically expect team to be held under 20 points, so we agree there, but who the fuck else is there to play?

are there great MLB's sitting at home? was there a great one in the draft we skipped out on?

HC's dont do magic. they dont invent great players. there are 7 defensive players on IR or PUP, and 3 more on the injury report.

which HC has magical healing powers?

as for the blowout against a rookie qb in the palyofs, you say dalton throw 3 INT's right? and the texans are currently the best team in the NFL

we got to the playoffs because our defense was top 5 most of the year last year...

while the offense was bottom half of the league...
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[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1350922020' post='1173691']
This should be very apparent to anyone watching. The end of the Cleveland game was a little bit of a special situation as the middle of the field was WIDE OPEN and Peerman was getting almost 10 yds per play but yes, your overall point stands and I agree very much. Let plays develop before hitting Gresham for 3 yds. OLine needs to improve pass protection if this is to happen also but they've given him enough time to let a play develop.
[/quote]

i know it was wide open, i was there, watching in person, but its still a pointless pass. what are we gonna do dink 10 yards down the field? at that stage we needed chunks of yards, there wasnt time to play the dink and dunk game. and I dont feel that that is a stage in the game where you can "hope" he breaks one for longer...you need multiple scores in a very very short time.

i think it was intentionally called, as you see what happens when he tries to make bigger plays...

i cant really speak on the oline, 90% of the time he doesnt have the ball long enough to state good protection or not, 7% of the time he starts scrambling around like he is being chased, BEFORE he is being chased, and 3% of the time he stands there and gets sacked having had plenty of time to throw the ball..

I have never, in my entire life, wanting big ben on this team.. but there was a play late in the game, he was getting hit in the pocket, he stepped back, started getting hit, whipped the ball going backwards off his back foot in a BULLET right in the WR's chest 15 yards to the sideline... I just watch other QB's play, there are about 6-7 teams i record the 30 minute full games on directv to watch them play, and there is a pretty clear skillset deficiency between our QB and their QB..and watching the playoffs and the offensive teams winning superbowls year after year after year.. its a depressing situation to know, for SURE, no doubts, that your team cant even come close to hanging with those other teams..

and it sucks. I have never looked forward to the nfl draft in october before... well before now...i can see where this train is headed..
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