Lincoln

[Jamie_B]

[color=#333333][font='lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif][size=3]I would not be surprised to see Daniel Day Lewis win an Oscar for that.[/size][/font][/color]

[Jason]

Is the movie so political you put it in here?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Jason' timestamp='1353246765' post='1181372']
Is the movie so political you put it in here?
[/quote]

no, but i anticipate that discussion to go there so....

[Jamie_B]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BERKF9rnBcQ&feature=g-vrec

[Homer_Rice]

I've been looking forward to this for quite some time. I'm hoping that in this version of his life he turns around and puts a whupping on JWB.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1353286586' post='1182119']
I've been looking forward to this for quite some time. I'm hoping that in this version of his life he turns around and puts a whupping on JWB.
[/quote]

I'm almost finished with Team of Rivals (on CD), what's the deal with Hannibal Hamlin? This guy was VP and its like he's barely even mentioned. Seward as well as others had more influence it seems.

[Go Skins]

Some of my critic friends in DC take:
[url="http://wafflemovies.com/lincoln.html"]http://wafflemovies.com/lincoln.html[/url]

[url="http://dcfilmgirl.com/lincoln-review-day-lewis-triumphs-overall-film-dull/"]http://dcfilmgirl.com/lincoln-review-day-lewis-triumphs-overall-film-dull/[/url]

[url="http://blog.beliefnet.com/moviemom/2012/11/lincoln.html"]http://blog.beliefnet.com/moviemom/2012/11/lincoln.html[/url]

I didn't see it (haven't seen anything since the end of August actually).

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1353247622' post='1181375']
no, but i anticipate that discussion to go there so....
[/quote]

Surely not! Not on this board...

[CincyInDC]

Ok. If modern Republicans were more like Lincoln, I'd still hate GWB.

[Jamie_B]

[bengalrick]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1353286931' post='1182128']
I'm almost finished with Team of Rivals (on CD), what's the deal with Hannibal Hamlin? This guy was VP and its like he's barely even mentioned. Seward as well as others had more influence it seems.
[/quote]

I noticed that too. I think its because he really did have more influence though. Out of all that were followed, I liked him the most. Great read btw for anyone else interested in the Civil War era.

Can't wait to see this movie. One of my favorite actors portraying my favorite president... Expectations are high.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1353350274' post='1182474']
I noticed that too. I think its because he really did have more influence though. Out of all that were followed, I liked him the most. Great read btw for anyone else interested in the Civil War era.

Can't wait to see this movie. One of my favorite actors portraying my favorite president... Expectations are high.
[/quote]

Yeah it seemed like Seward was his right hand man, but it also seemed like alot of folks had more influence than Hamlin, and I was just curious as to why that may be.

[Homer_Rice]

A couple of thoughts here. First, as John Adams said when he was VP under Washington, the job was pretty undefined and useless. Second, Hamlin ended up on the ticket with Lincoln in 1860 because he was also an opponent of slavery and in particular, this was the reason he (like so many others) left the Dem party in the 1850s to join the Repubs. Though he isn't talked about much now, Hamlin was a pretty well-known pol at the time and he helped solidify the ticket of a fairly unknown (to the general populace) guy from the West. Lastly, Hamlin was dropped in 1864 partly because Lincoln wanted to broaden and deepen his tendency for reconciliation with the South, but also because it was an iffy election vs McClellan and Johnson brought some political support that he needed. Maine (Hamlin's home) and the Northeast was pretty solidly Repub with or without Hamlin on the ticket in 1864.

In those days, all the action was in the cabinet--plus, as Goodwin makes the focus of her book, the people in Lincoln's cabinet were representative of various other power bases in the Repub party, especially Chase and Seward. Lincoln (wisely, imo) brought 'em in politically close not only because they were talented but also to keep an eye on them. Chase never really warmed up to Lincoln though he did do a creditable job at Treasury (in particularly trying times, too) while Seward came to really respect Lincoln. Seward was also a pretty astute pol, too.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1353373653' post='1182617']
A couple of thoughts here. First, as John Adams said when he was VP under Washington, the job was pretty undefined and useless. Second, Hamlin ended up on the ticket with Lincoln in 1860 because he was also an opponent of slavery and in particular, this was the reason he (like so many others) left the Dem party in the 1850s to join the Repubs. Though he isn't talked about much now, Hamlin was a pretty well-known pol at the time and he helped solidify the ticket of a fairly unknown (to the general populace) guy from the West. Lastly, Hamlin was dropped in 1864 partly because Lincoln wanted to broaden and deepen his tendency for reconciliation with the South, but also because it was an iffy election vs McClellan and Johnson brought some political support that he needed. Maine (Hamlin's home) and the Northeast was pretty solidly Repub with or without Hamlin on the ticket in 1864.

In those days, all the action was in the cabinet--plus, as Goodwin makes the focus of her book, the people in Lincoln's cabinet were representative of various other power bases in the Repub party, especially Chase and Seward. Lincoln (wisely, imo) brought 'em in politically close not only because they were talented but also to keep an eye on them. Chase never really warmed up to Lincoln though he did do a creditable job at Treasury (in particularly trying times, too) while Seward came to really respect Lincoln. Seward was also a pretty astute pol, too.
[/quote]

Yeah I just got to the point where Chase tendered his resignation.

[Homer_Rice]

Been busy recently but I finally got to see the movie. Quite good and about as accurate historically as one can expect from a Hollywood production. While Lewis blew me away as Lincoln, I especially liked the accuracy with which Stevens was captured; I bet Tommy Lee Jones had a lot of fun with that role.

I was hoping for one of my personally favorite Lincoln moments to be in the movie, but it wasn't. When Lincoln went to consult with Grant just prior to the end of the war (which is in the movie) one of Grant's staff members walked into a room where Lincoln was sitting alone--except for the kittens in his lap that he was playing with.

[Jamie_B]

Yeah I wouldnt be surprised if TLJ is nominated for best supporting too

[|Numbers|]

A little expansion of information on above posts:

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Hamlin"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Hamlin[/url]

[quote]He strongly supported Joseph Hooker's appointment as commander of the Army of the Potomac, which was a dismal failure. In June 1864, the Republicans and War Democrats joined to form the National Union Party. Although Lincoln was renominated, War Democrat Andrew Johnson of Tennessee was named to replace Hamlin as Lincoln's running mate. Lincoln was seeking to broaden his base of support and was also looking ahead to Southern Reconstruction, at which Johnson had proven himself adept as war governor of occupied Tennessee. Hamlin, by contrast, was an ally of Northern radicals (who would later impeach Johnson). Lincoln and Johnson were elected in November 1864, and Hamlin's term expired on March 4, 1865.

Hamlin and Lincoln were not close personally, but had a good working relationship. At the time, White House etiquette did not require the Vice President to regularly attend cabinet meetings; thus, Hamlin did not regularly visit the White House. It was said that Mary Todd Lincoln and Hamlin disliked each other. For his part, Hamlin complained, "I am only a fifth wheel of a coach and can do little for my friends." [2]

Although Hamlin narrowly missed becoming President, his vice presidency would usher in a half-century of sustained national influence for the Maine Republican Party. In the period 1861–1911, Maine Republicans occupied the offices of Vice President, Secretary of the Treasury (twice), Secretary of State, President pro tempore of the United States Senate, Speaker of the United States House of Representatives (twice), and would field a national presidential candidate in James G. Blaine, a level of influence in national politics unmatched by subsequent Maine political delegations.[/quote]

[url="http://bangorinfo.com/Focus/focus_hannibal_hamlin.html"]http://bangorinfo.com/Focus/focus_hannibal_hamlin.html[/url]

[quote]Hamlin strongly opposed the Democratic Party's support for slavery, but he refrained from leaving the party. In [b]Ap[b]ril [/b]1856, [/b]Hamlin's wife died from tuberculosis.
Members of the newly formed Republican Party, which opposed slavery, urged Hamlin to switch parties and run for governor. But Hamlin felt he could serve the state better in Washington. [b]Only[b] [/b]when[/b] the Republicans promised to return him to the U.S. Senate did he agree to resign from the Democratic Party and run for governor as a Republican. He quit the Democratic Party on [b]Ju[b]ne [/b]12, 1856, [/b]with sharp parting words for his former Democratic colleagues. In September, he married his dead wife's half-sister, Ellen, and won the gubernatorial race.

Hamlin's stint as governor was short-lived, though. After being sworn in on Jan. 8, 1857, Hamlin resigned on Feb. 25, 1857, to return to the U.S. Senate, this time as a Republican, to fill a vacancy.

Three years later, the Republicans nominated Hamlin on the second ballot to run as the party's vice presidential candidate alongside Abraham Lincoln. Because Lincoln had been born in Kentucky and hailed from Illinois, the Republicans considered Hamlin to be important for winning the White House because he was from the Northeast.
Hamlin didn't want the vice presidential nomination. In fact, he did not learn he had won the nomination until a group of colleagues interrupted a card game he had been playing at his hotel room to tell him.

"I neither expected it or desired it," Hamlin wrote to his wife, Ellen. "But it has been made and as a faithful man to the cause, it leaves me no alternative but to accept it."
The "cause," of course, was the abolition of slavery[/quote]

[sois]

[img]http://theworstmovie.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/over-the-top-1987.jpg[/img]

[Homer_Rice]

Good stuff, Numbers. One of the best ways to really get into a historical period is to pay attention to the "second-tier" personalities--people who were significant in a given period but who tend to be overlooked in general histories written well after the period in question.

Just saw this bit on 60 minutes Overtime: [url="http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-57536809-10391709/daniel-day-lewis-on-playing-lincoln/"]Daniel Day Lewis on playing Lincoln[/url]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1354289412' post='1186428']
Good stuff, Numbers. One of the best ways to really get into a historical period is to pay attention to the "second-tier" personalities--people who were significant in a given period but who tend to be overlooked in general histories written well after the period in question.

Just saw this bit on 60 minutes Overtime: [url="http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-57536809-10391709/daniel-day-lewis-on-playing-lincoln/"]Daniel Day Lewis on playing Lincoln[/url]
[/quote]

John Williams is a brilliant composer.

[|Numbers|]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1354289412' post='1186428']
Good stuff, Numbers. One of the best ways to really get into a historical period is to pay attention to the "second-tier" personalities--people who were significant in a given period but who tend to be overlooked in general histories written well after the period in question.

Just saw this bit on 60 minutes Overtime: [url="http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-57536809-10391709/daniel-day-lewis-on-playing-lincoln/"]Daniel Day Lewis on playing Lincoln[/url]
[/quote]

There is obviously a deep dedication towards getting the details right. According to that link you posted the film production had even obtained a recording of Lincoln's actual watch to play in the movie.

Another "second tier" figure in Lincoln's life was Joshua Speed. Lincoln remained close with Speed despite differing opinons on slavery. Even going so far as to appoint his brother a Attorney General. Some of these items that happened with Speed (including courtships of other women) helped to define Lincoln as a person.

Lincoln always seemed to be one president who could in fact reach across the aisle in friendship despite differing opinions on a wide variety of things.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Numbers' timestamp='1354305884' post='1186550']
There is obviously a deep dedication towards getting the details right. According to that link you posted the film production had even obtained a recording of Lincoln's actual watch to play in the movie.[/quote]

One of the details that delighted me comes in the Appomattox scene where there is a shot of Robert Lincoln on the porch as he watched Lee riding away. It's only a couple of seconds, but just behind young Lincoln is a Union officer with a deep complexion. I'm sure it was a character playing Ely Parker, who was an Iroquois on Grant's staff.

[quote]Another "second tier" figure in Lincoln's life was Joshua Speed. Lincoln remained close with Speed despite differing opinons on slavery. Even going so far as to appoint his brother a Attorney General. Some of these items that happened with Speed (including courtships of other women) helped to define Lincoln as a person.[/quote]

Speed was important to Lincoln (and an important source for historians on Lincoln's early life.) Whether it is in biographical study or in topical study, the surrounding people often bring a fullness and life to a subject. My thing is economic history and it is impossible to understand Lincoln period economic moves without getting to know (at least a little bit) folks like Chase, Fessenden, Jay Cooke, etc...

[quote]
Lincoln always seemed to be one president who could in fact reach across the aisle in friendship despite differing opinions on a wide variety of things.
[/quote]

I think in many cases it wasn't exactly friendship on Lincoln's part though it is true that he was a very charitable person. But he was also quite calculating and politically astute. A master of the "catch more flies with honey approach."

Read this earlier which fits here: [url="http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/learning-history-at-the-movies/"]Learning History at the Movies[/url]