Guest steggyD Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 Alright, I'm not trying to start another race argument here. I am attempting to debate the actual idea behind hate crime punishments. In my opinion it is useless. I don't understand how we can punish people any further because of their motive. Maybe we should add other motives into the court, such as greed crimes, or revenge crimes. I will even show an example here of where a black man may be charged with hate crime for murdering a white woman. [url="http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050702/NEWS02/507020332/1018"]http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../507020332/1018[/url] [url="http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050706/NEWS02/507060339/1017"]http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../507060339/1017[/url] It's obvious that this guy has problems and hates white women for some reason, but why punish him any extra? To me, murder is murder. Put him on trial for murder and then show motive in court, but don't punish him for his motive, punish him for murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 [quote name='steggyD' date='Jul 6 2005, 11:54 AM']Alright, I'm not trying to start another race argument here. I am attempting to debate the actual idea behind hate crime punishments. In my opinion it is useless. I don't understand how we can punish people any further because of their motive. Maybe we should add other motives into the court, such as greed crimes, or revenge crimes. I will even show an example here of where a black man may be charged with hate crime for murdering a white woman. [url="http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050702/NEWS02/507020332/1018"]http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../507020332/1018[/url] [url="http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050706/NEWS02/507060339/1017"]http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../507060339/1017[/url] It's obvious that this guy has problems and hates white women for some reason, but why punish him any extra? To me, murder is murder. Put him on trial for murder and then show motive in court, but don't punish him for his motive, punish him for murder. [right][post="111131"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] I agree. If a murder takes place for a motive like (I was saving my sister from being repeatedly beaten up by her boyfriend), then convict on murder 2. But a murder 1 is premeditated murder regardless of the reason. And most murders, regardless of motive is a "hate crime." That term can be defined so many ways, that it's too ambiguous to use in the legal system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 That's the other part. Good point sis. If I am murdering someone, or even assaulting them, it's more than likely that I hate them. Even if I hate them just because they are a Brown's fan or something. If I beat up a Brown's fan, is that a hate crime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 [quote name='steggyD' date='Jul 6 2005, 03:01 PM']That's the other part. Good point sis. If I am murdering someone, or even assaulting them, it's more than likely that I hate them. Even if I hate them just because they are a Brown's fan or something. If I beat up a Brown's fan, is that a hate crime? [right][post="111168"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] No, that's normal... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 [i][b]Good Topic..... [color="red"]Do we differentiate between different types of the same crime ?[/color] Yes .... 1st and 2nd degree murder/manslaughter [color="red"]Do we differentiate based on motive of why you did the crime ?[/color] Yes .... You can plead insanity, we have crimes of passion, a Pedophile obviously chooses a child because they are a child etc Now one case that you could make for Hate crime legislation is that when you go around killing black people (solely because they are black) that crime is not only meant to affect the black person you killed.... it is usually meant to intimidate "all blacks" thus you are intimidating to create fear amongst another gorup of people. I see hate crime legislation as attepting to legislate --- murder or assault with the intent to intimidate a group of people. Thus if a group decides we are going to round up Gays, or Muslims, or even white businessmen and begin to harm,harass, and kill them with the intent to create fear and unrest in others of that same characteristic then I think it is a wrose crime than just killing a guy because you found him doing anal with your wife, and grabbed the first knife you could find. Most murders are commited by people who know the other person (usually men killing wifes girlfriends lovers etc) .......... that is 1st degree..... I think that the system is attempting to say that there is even something worse than killing someone in the first degree. That would be attemtping to terrorize a whole group of people and ruin all of their days because of fear. Now if you can show that someone was systematically choosing victims to do this then yes they should be punished more harshly.... [u]and to do that you need Hate crime legislation [/u][/b][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 I completely see your point BJ, but it's a slippery slope. That guy hated white women. So he killed one. Was he attempting to incite hatred of white women in his act. I don't think so. He just wanted to kill her. The boys who hated the gay boy they beat to death. At the time of the beating, did they want to get everyone to beat up gay kids? No. They hated him and wanted to kill/torture him. I think more of a problem is the people that riot/march, etc and do things to create a hateful atmosphere are the ones spreading the hate and intimidation. Like the people did in the small town where the gay boy was killed. For some reason, I draw a blank on names, places, etc. I think it was Laremy. Anyway, I just think one has to be careful with this. We have legislation in place already that I think if followed up properly takes care of these issues. If we create "hate crime" legislation for murders, then I think the door is open for other "motive crime" legislation. Which I don't think makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BadassBengal Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 Err... I'm confused. But.... I say.... why not punish them for both? Hell, he murdered someone, and he's guilty of a hate crime, so.... err.... he gets in trouble for both of em...right? Uh......nevermind. I'm confusaded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 Those are some good points, BJ, but Sis responded well. The Hate Crime is used in silly issues, such as cursing at a Chineese woman in a New York restaurant, and just happening to throw in some sort of "racist" comment. For the most part, we don't have too many active hate groups that we need such laws. If it were for only groups that are out actively terrorizing another group, then they need to word it as such. Right now, it's being used in so many silly little cases that have nothing to do with terrorizing groups of people. I could probably beat up a red-headed person and call them a freckled-faced geek while I do it, and by that standard, it would be a hate-crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 Also, to go on record, I'm not a big fan of pleading insanity. Crimes of passion, I may understand, but that is only a level of temporary sanity in itself. I feel that if you are murdering people, then of course you are not as "sane" as the rest of society. Why the hell are we gonna test somebody, just to see how insane they are? You're crazy, you're insane, you murder people, get behind bars you crazy person you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 [quote]Those are some good points, BJ, but Sis responded well. The Hate Crime is used in silly issues, such as cursing at a Chineese woman in a New York restaurant, and just happening to throw in some sort of "racist" comment. For the most part, we don't have too many active hate groups that we need such laws. If it were for only groups that are out actively terrorizing another group, then they need to word it as such. Right now, it's being used in so many silly little cases that have nothing to do with terrorizing groups of people. I could probably beat up a red-headed person and call them a freckled-faced geek while I do it, and by that standard, it would be a hate-crime.[/quote] [i][b]I agree Steggy.... it should only be applied to "Systematic, harassment and violence with the intent to intimidate a larger group of people" ....... I would only use it in cases of physcial assault.... not verbal harassment[/b][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 [quote name='BadassBengal' date='Jul 6 2005, 05:07 PM']Err... I'm confused. But.... I say.... why not punish them for both? Hell, he murdered someone, and he's guilty of a hate crime, so.... err.... he gets in trouble for both of em...right? Uh......nevermind. I'm confusaded [right][post="111194"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] I guess that’s my question too, do we punish them for the murder and the hate crime? I could see where that could be, just like why we try someone for multiple crimes multiple times rather than just once, in case they get off on a technicality we can hit them with something else that is still involved. ie: The DC Snipers are being charged separately for each murder just to make sure they dont get off on all of them in case there is a technicality for the others. Also, we in VA have a law against acts of sex that are not with your spouse in your home in the missionary position. A stupid law? You would think, but the only time I’ve heard of it being prosecuted is when you have rape cases or consent cases, it which the point is to get them with every possible thing you can in case their is a technicality and they get off on one thing, they can still get him with the other. So are we now defining hate-crime as a separate crime on top of that, for that purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BadassBengal Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 [quote]I guess that’s my question too, do we punish them for the murder and the hate crime? I could see where that could be, just like why we try someone for multiple crimes multiple times rather than just once, in case they get off on a technicality we can hit them with something else that is still involved.[/quote] Yea. Also, if they get convicted of both, you can sentence them for death for the murder, and after that is over, you can put their body in jail for however many years for the hate crime. Yep. [quote]Also, we in VA have a law against acts of sex that are not with your spouse in your home in the missionary position.[/quote] Note to self: Never buy hookers and do it doggystyle with them in VA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 I don't like that much either, Jamie. I think our court systems need some major changes. It needs to work, for the people. There should never be loopholes for guilty people to get out of being guilty. I know it would be hard to fix, and I have no idea of how to, but let's fix it. Not by adding a bunch of laws and trying people over and over for the same crime. Let's try them once, the right way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 [i][b]Screw Legislation anyway..... My proposed punishment for Pedophiles or rapists.... then you don't even need to keep them in Jail... then just let them walk right out... and see if their friends do it [/b][/i] nws [url="http://www.greasetank.com/Hammer/1/chopping-block.jpg"]http://www.greasetank.com/Hammer/1/chopping-block.jpg[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 [quote name='steggyD' date='Jul 6 2005, 05:32 PM']I don't like that much either, Jamie. I think our court systems need some major changes. It needs to work, for the people. There should never be loopholes for guilty people to get out of being guilty. I know it would be hard to fix, and I have no idea of how to, but let's fix it. Not by adding a bunch of laws and trying people over and over for the same crime. Let's try them once, the right way. [right][post="111225"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] Thats where the law confuses me as well , for instance Michael Jackson got charged with 14 different counts but were all tried at once, these DC Snipers are getting charged for each case differently, maybee it has to do with the death penalty and making sure they get it but I dont really know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CTBengalsFan Posted July 7, 2005 Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 anytime someone commits a crime they usually get like 5 different convictions anyway, why do we have to add even more to the already cluttered legal system? Murder is a hateful act, you can't say one murder is more hateful than the next. For anyone to bring themselves to the point of killing someone, it's not because they [i]like[/i] them. Also, it's something that I feel divides races instead of helping existing race relations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BadassBengal Posted July 7, 2005 Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 [quote name='CTBengalsFan' date='Jul 6 2005, 08:14 PM']anytime someone commits a crime they usually get like 5 different convictions anyway, why do we have to add even more to the already cluttered legal system? Murder is a hateful act, you can't say one murder is more hateful than the next. For anyone to bring themselves to the point of killing someone, it's not because they [i]like[/i] them. Also, it's something that I feel divides races instead of helping existing race relations... [right][post="111313"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] mmmmhhhhhhmmmm... I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted July 7, 2005 Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 [quote name='CTBengalsFan' date='Jul 6 2005, 09:14 PM']Also, it's something that I feel divides races instead of helping existing race relations... [right][post="111313"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] Another good point. They say that law should see no color (as in race). Yet, we make laws that point out the difference in race. Seems like a separation factor to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted July 7, 2005 Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 My antennae go up whenever I perceive anything that smacks of political correctness. What I would like to know is this: What is the legal distinction between a hate crime and a crime against humanity? Any lawyers here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BengalBacker Posted July 7, 2005 Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 If hate crime legislation was truly followed, the overwhelming majority of violators would be black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bengal_Smoov Posted July 7, 2005 Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 [quote name='BengalBacker' date='Jul 7 2005, 03:22 AM']If hate crime legislation was truly followed, the overwhelming majority of violators would be black. [right][post="111474"][/post][/right][/quote] Here's a good example of what Backer's talking about. [quote]Verbal jabs at rally for bat victim BY WARREN WOODBERRY JR. DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER [b]The baseball-bat beating of a black man by white thugs in Howard Beach [/b]caused tempers to flare yesterday on the steps of Queens Criminal Court. An argument and shoving match erupted between supporters of victim Glenn Moore and an attorney for one of the hate-crime suspects. The skirmish came as black religious leaders held a rally on the steps of the Kew Gardens courthouse to demand justice. Vincent Siccardi, the attorney for suspect Anthony Ench, 21, showed up at the rally and criticized Moore's supporters for what he called a rush to judgment. "That's the problem with people like you, that actually want to make an issue that is not an issue," Siccardi scolded the Rev. Charles Norris, chairman for the Southeast Queens Clergy for Political Awareness. Norris shouted back, "This is our press conference. You have no business here." Siccardi, whose office is across the street from the courthouse, said he just happened onto the rally while heading to court for an unrelated case. As Norris and Siccardi closed in on each other, a rally participant stepped in to separate them, placing a hand on the lawyer's chest. "Get your hand off me!" Siccardi fumed as court officers raced down the steps to quell the confrontation. [b]Ench and Nicholas Minucci, 19, have been charged with fracturing Moore's skull last Wednesday with an aluminum baseball bat. A third man, Frank Agostini, 19, son of an NYPD detective, allegedly also was present, but has not been charged.[/b] One of two friends with Moore at the time of the attack told police the trio went to Howard Beach to steal a car, but [b]cops have noted Minucci and Ench did not know that.[/b] The incident came 19 years after black construction worker Michael Griffith, 23, was killed running from a white mob in Howard Beach.[/quote] So lil' Nicky sees a few jigs around his hood late at night and goes and gets his crew and some bats. They comeback and deliver a hellious beating, sending young Mr. Moore to the ICU for fractured skull among other things. Now some say that Moore had no good business in Howard Beach at 3:30 in morning, but if they thought something supcious was going on they should have called the cops, hell of the kids involved dad in a detective. Minucci friends tried to counter the claim that this isn't a race motivated crime by saying that Minucci listens to 50 Cents and wears baggy clothes. But Minucci has previous convictions for assulting a Sikh on 9/11 claiming revenge for the terrorist attack and stabbing a kid in the stomach. The kid he stabbed died before he could testify, so Minucci got his get out of jail free card, but he's not getting off so easily this time. Oh no, the Rev. Al involved and someones going to have to give him some big money to make him go away, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaker Posted July 7, 2005 Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 Kinda like the white Russian immigrant that got beaten to death outside Music Hall in Cincinnati. The old man in his 70's was protecting his wife from street thugs and was beaten to death. Hang 'em higher, right? Hate crime legislation is stupid and useless. Fits the old saying..."You can't legislate morality". Yet people continue to try to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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