Who has guns?

[eva4ben-gal]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1358365592' post='1208596']


You're painting doom and gloom what relaly will happen if guns are illegal? Nothing . Everything will still be the same. You will still have yoru guns. ify ou want more, you will get them illegally like weed users do. cops wont care cause its not a big deal

things are shitty enough here for revolution or drastic change. Society isn't going to break down.

we have enough ability right now to "do something" about this corporate slavery you fear, but in reality, people love their wal-marts, targets, bank of americas... etc. We love our corporate overlords. If we relaly hated it, we wouldn't endorse dumbass things.

We have what we deserve.
[/quote]
people clearly do not love corporate overlords and have been making it known, but their power over or daily lives is immense and unless people are willing to eat only what they catch, the overlords as you call them, have our population held captive by their wallets. Is change possible without the breakdown of society? Sure, anything is possible, but that means the opposite end of the spectrum also is possible. I'm not going to be one caught off guard either way.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Orange 'n Black' timestamp='1358365315' post='1208592']
Also from Wiki: [b]Hubris[/b][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3] ([/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3]pron.: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English"]/[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key"]ˈ[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key"]h[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key"]juː[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key"]b[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key"]r[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key"]ɪ[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key"]s[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English"]/[/url][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3]), also [/size][/font][/color][b]hybris[/b][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3], from [/size][/font][/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek"]ancient Greek[/url][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3][url="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%95%CE%B2%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%82"]ὕβρις[/url][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3], means extreme [/size][/font][/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride"]pride[/url][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3] or arrogance.[/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3]As in that which you display with your brash judgment and silly pictures instead of having an honest discussion about this subject. Because it's not about whether or not I can shoot down a Predator drone with a Bushmaster rifle, it's about the core concept of the second amendment and what it means to the history and future of this country. [/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]

Yes and in the context of being a well regulated militia something that some of you are continuing to conveintly ignore.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='eva4ben-gal' timestamp='1358365379' post='1208593']
Like I said, I voted for the same president you did, but I'm not going to trust my life and my families lives to a man I have never met and who is in the pocket of the corporate sponsors that got him elected. Democracy doesn't work like it did back in colonial times because we've let the corporations in on the action. Change your vote all you want, there's really no guarantee it's being counted.
[/quote]

Neither do weapons work the way they did in the colonial times. As I said its about context.

[eva4ben-gal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1358366014' post='1208599']


Yes and in the context of being a well regulated militia something that some of you are continuing to conveintly ignore.
[/quote]
So you can argue that the interpretation of the law should change because the times have changed but we can't? Interesting.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='eva4ben-gal' timestamp='1358365489' post='1208594']
Drones have already been shot down by American citizens on American soil. Sure they may not have been firing back, but it can be done.
[/quote]

Didnt hear about this, link?

[Orange 'n Black]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1358365592' post='1208596']
You're painting doom and gloom what relaly will happen if guns are illegal? Nothing . Everything will still be the same. You will still have yoru guns. ify ou want more, you will get them illegally like weed users do. cops wont care cause its not a big deal

things are shitty enough here for revolution or drastic change. Society isn't going to break down.

we have enough ability right now to "do something" about this corporate slavery you fear, but in reality, people love their wal-marts, targets, bank of americas... etc. We love our corporate overlords. If we relaly hated it, we wouldn't endorse dumbass things.

We have what we deserve.
[/quote]

Do you really believe it's impossible for a tyrannical power grab to occur in America? That conditions for massive societal upheaval could never occur? I think that is naive. In fact, that is what the more extreme of the Occupy folks wanted - and they are on the opposite end of the political spectrum from me.

If history has taught us anything, it's that no society is immune from fall. The only way to fight that inevitability is to learn from the lessons that caused downfall in the past. Tyranny emerges when the will or ability of the people to resist is destroyed. Hitler didn't remove the ability of ethnic Germans to resist him, but used his cunning to remove their will by building a cult of personality. If what you wrote here represented the majority ideals of Americans, then we might as well ask Congress to repeal the 2nd Amendment and ban all guns (literally the symbol of the ability to resist), since our will is gone down the drain anyway.

[eva4ben-gal]

It was in the news, surprise it was in Texas I believe. Google is cool.
Edit: it was in Texas and there is a YouTube video to boot. I'm not going to post a link because I'm posting from my phone.
Added edit: they are now launching drones from the airport not five miles from my house. I could probably sit in my backyard and take target practice if the neighbors wouldn't mind.

[Orange 'n Black]

[quote name='eva4ben-gal' timestamp='1358366110' post='1208601']
So you can argue that the interpretation of the law should change because the times have changed but we can't? Interesting.
[/quote]

Indeed, "all men are created equal" was once interpreted to be "all white men who own land are created equal".

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='eva4ben-gal' timestamp='1358366014' post='1208598']
people clearly do not love corporate overlords and have been making it known, but their power over or daily lives is immense and unless people are willing to eat only what they catch, the overlords as you call them, have our population held captive by their wallets. Is change possible without the breakdown of society? Sure, anything is possible, but that means the opposite end of the spectrum also is possible. I'm not going to be one caught off guard either way.
[/quote]

The break down in society is as a result of our greed and defense of those doing the breaking down, the sad thing is many defending their rights here are the same ones not willing to accept that we live in a society and as such are responsible for one and other.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='eva4ben-gal' timestamp='1358366110' post='1208601']
So you can argue that the interpretation of the law should change because the times have changed but we can't? Interesting.
[/quote]

Actually no, I am aarguing that because times have changed we MUST change, just not into this wild-west stuff that your aguring for.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='eva4ben-gal' timestamp='1358366228' post='1208604']
It was in the news, surprise it was in Texas I believe. Google is cool.
[/quote]

yeah i tried to google "predator drone shot down in united states" and all it came up with was about Iran.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Orange 'n Black' timestamp='1358366223' post='1208603']
Do you really believe it's impossible for a tyrannical power grab to occur in America? That conditions for massive societal upheaval could never occur? I think that is naive. In fact, that is what the more extreme of the Occupy folks wanted - and they are on the opposite end of the political spectrum from me.

If history has taught us anything, it's that no society is immune from fall. The only way to fight that inevitability is to learn from the lessons that caused downfall in the past. Tyranny emerges when the will or ability of the people to resist is destroyed. Hitler didn't remove the ability of ethnic Germans to resist him, but used his cunning to remove their will by building a cult of personality. If what you wrote here represented the majority ideals of Americans, then we might as well ask Congress to repeal the 2nd Amendment and ban all guns (literally the symbol of the ability to resist), since our will is gone down the drain anyway.
[/quote]


But that's just it, it's a symbol to resist, it isnt a realistic option.

And if we are at that point then our great experiment has failed.

[Orange 'n Black]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1358366468' post='1208607']
The break down in society is as a result of our greed and defense of those doing the breaking down, the sad thing is many defending their rights here are the same ones not willing to accept that we live in a society and as such are responsible for one and other.
[/quote]

Not sure if this is directed at me in particular but since I'm part of "the other side" for this debate: I'd argue that NOBODY is being particularly responsible in the nationwide debate as a whole, because we're fighting over what makes an acceptable gun or an unacceptable gun while ignoring the root issues. We complain about what Congress does but don't launch recalls; we complain about corporate abuses but can't organize a coherent movement; we complain about mentally ill people shooting innocent folks and make it an issue about a symbol, not a systemic problem in our society. Americans don't deal with hard problems in this day and age, we band-aid them.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Orange 'n Black' timestamp='1358366797' post='1208611']
Not sure if this is directed at me in particular but since I'm part of "the other side" for this debate: I'd argue that NOBODY is being particularly responsible in the nationwide debate as a whole, because we're fighting over what makes an acceptable gun or an unacceptable gun while ignoring the root issues. We complain about what Congress does but don't launch recalls; we complain about corporate abuses but can't organize a coherent movement; we complain about mentally ill people shooting innocent folks and make it an issue about a symbol, not a systemic problem in our society. Americans don't deal with hard problems in this day and age, we band-aid them.
[/quote]

I dont disagree, however the gun thing is in part part of a solution that isnt as black and white one size fit all solution.

[eva4ben-gal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1358366468' post='1208607']


The break down in society is as a result of our greed and defense of those doing the breaking down, the sad thing is many defending their rights here are the same ones not willing to accept that we live in a society and as such are responsible for one and other.
[/quote]
Really?!? Because I hate corporate douche bags and ineffectual politicians, for some reason getting rid of them hasn't come up on the ballot yet though.

[sois]

[quote name='Orange 'n Black' timestamp='1358366223' post='1208603']
Do you really believe it's impossible for a tyrannical power grab to occur in America? That conditions for massive societal upheaval could never occur?
[/quote]

1. Not impossible, but unlikely. I am a betting man. I don't think we are anywhere close to that.

2. Yes, the conditions could occur, but we are far from that. We are a country that bitches about $4 gas. We are soft as fuck. We have it so nice here, why would we mess with it? We don't really know pain, as a society, even by todays soft standards. There are countries with real problems. We are not one.

[eva4ben-gal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1358366608' post='1208609']


yeah i tried to google "predator drone shot down in united states" and all it came up with was about Iran.
[/quote]
You need to hone your google skills. Put in drone shot down, the Texas video pops right up.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='eva4ben-gal' timestamp='1358366873' post='1208613']
Really?!? Because I hate corporate douche bags and ineffectual politicians, for some reason getting rid of them hasn't come up on the ballot yet though.
[/quote]

Probabally because were too busy arguing that "we cant afford" effective government and that goverment is the problem to all of our ills.

[eva4ben-gal]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1358366890' post='1208614']


1. Not impossible, but unlikely. I am a betting man. I don't think we are anywhere close to that.

2. Yes, the conditions could occur, but we are far from that. We are a country that bitches about $4 gas. We are soft as fuck. We have it so nice here, why would we mess with it? We don't really know pain, as a society, even by todays soft standards. There are countries with real problems. We are not one.
[/quote]
Those views right there are exactly what a tyrant would want his people thinking. They've got you right where they want you.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='eva4ben-gal' timestamp='1358366952' post='1208615']
You need to hone your google skills. Put in drone shot down, the Texas video pops right up.
[/quote]

You're going to come up with something more reputiable than a video from Alex "1776 is coming" Jones.

[Orange 'n Black]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1358366890' post='1208614']
1. Not impossible, but unlikely. I am a betting man. I don't think we are anywhere close to that.

2. Yes, the conditions could occur, but we are far from that. We are a country that bitches about $4 gas. We are soft as fuck. We have it so nice here, why would we mess with it? We don't really know pain, as a society, even by todays soft standards. There are countries with real problems. We are not one.
[/quote]

I don't think it's likely either but I don't see that as a reason to let it fade into the mists of time. Personally I don't believe that Americans are as soft as you do either. Historically we have always been willing to fight for change. The 60s were a time of massive social upheaval - not a violent revolution, but sweeping changes that were seen as irrelevant or impossible in the 50s. The Civil War was an entire nation in violent conflict with itself over what each side believed in (slavery was a symbolic issue, not the root cause). If it can happen anywhere, it can and will happen here.

[sois]

[quote name='eva4ben-gal' timestamp='1358367081' post='1208617']
Those views right there are exactly what a tyrant would want his people thinking. They've got you right where they want you.
[/quote]

Um, it's reality. I'm not going to delude myself.

[eva4ben-gal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1358367029' post='1208616']


Probabally because were too busy arguing that "we cant afford" effective government and that goverment is the problem to all of our ills.
[/quote]
well government is also the reason we're not shitting in a hole in the ground and huddled around a fire all winter in our hand crafted hut. Government is the solution to AND the cause of our problems.

[sois]

[quote name='Orange 'n Black' timestamp='1358367226' post='1208619']
I don't think it's likely either but I don't see that as a reason to let it fade into the mists of time. Personally I don't believe that Americans are as soft as you do either. Historically we have always been willing to fight for change. The 60s were a time of massive social upheaval - not a violent revolution, but sweeping changes that were seen as irrelevant or impossible in the 50s. The Civil War was an entire nation in violent conflict with itself over what each side believed in (slavery was a symbolic issue, not the root cause). If it can happen anywhere, it can and will happen here.
[/quote]

I just feel the climate is wrong for any meaningful change. There is too much indifference.

[eva4ben-gal]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1358367275' post='1208620']


Um, it's reality. I'm not going to delude myself.
[/quote]
And you just have.
the problem I think you are having is that you believe your own personal reality to be the true reality and in a globalized economy that's simply no longer the case and sometimes your reality is the least real thing in this world. The way you perceive this world to be just isn't so for the majority of the people on this planet.