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What Would it Take for You to Believe in God?


Enon Bengal

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So you think you're going to be the same place as Hitler in the afterlife? 

And you think they'll be serving Mickey D's? And you'll be screwing guys?

 

 

Yep, sounds like Hell to me ... :lol:

 

 

You seen little Nicky with Adam Sandler :lol:

 

 

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YssMT0qXYOw[/media]

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You know,  I had convinced myself not to say anything else, but your argument of evolution requires a response.  Disregard the time element of Genesis chapter 1, the idea that "God" created everything a day at a time, and tell me what part of it truly differs from your theory of evolution?  From nothingness becomes something, the big bang.  Separation of the heavens from the firmament, Earth developing an atmosphere, life beginning in the water and then coming onto land, land life starting as birds, aren't dinosaurs and birds similar?  The beginning of mammals after that on the land, and finally the beginning of mankind coming from the earth.  If you take the time to simply look at it, wouldn't that be the way an uneducated person might have explained the same evolutionary theory that our scientific community has spent all of these years proving?  My problem with both sides is that they are so stuck in their Dogma that neither can see the similarities of themselves in each others books of understanding. 

 

I have not once insisted that understanding and accepting Evolution requires a lack of belief in god or god's handiwork.  Yet upwards of 4 people have continued to believe that's what I'm arguing, have called me names, and circle-jerked each other with rep points.  I've had two main points: 1. We evolved from a primate ancestor. 2. If you don't believe that your intuition, internal monologue, or "just what you feel in your heart" has anything pertinent to say when it comes to disagreeing with aeronautics engineer's latest casing design, or a petroleum chemists buffer pH, or a neuroscientist's study methodology, where do you get off thinking it has anything to say about our species phylogeny?  I keep wanting to defend them but no one is talking about those points.

 

Believe in as many gods as you want, I only have a problem (contrary to how I've been talked to here) when someone makes claims about the natural world on behalf of their god that contradict the understandings accumulated via the scientific method.

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I only have a problem (contrary to how I've been talked to here) when someone makes claims about the natural world on behalf of their god that contradict the understandings accumulated via the scientific method.


That was my complaint as well; the assertion that science and religion are simply two competing belief systems is absurd.
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 1. We evolved from a primate ancestor.

 

Believe in as many gods as you want, I only have a problem (contrary to how I've been talked to here) when someone makes claims about the natural world on behalf of their god that contradict the understandings accumulated via the scientific method.

 

I believe in evolution but not necessarily in the "we derive from chimp/primate argument."  I can't prove the theory of evolution without a doubt but there is an enormous amount of evidence to support this claim, otherwise it would be considered the Fact of Evolution.  There is not enough evidence to say that we, in fact, derived from a chimp or vice versa.  The Humans have 96% the same DNA as a chimp argument does not convince all people.  The Identical Ancestors Point (IAP) seems to bolster the biblical version of how humans came to be.  The lineage from which we have the exact same ancestor is 5000-15000 years ago.  However, because of "flushing" discussed below, our ancestors, although not exact, derived some 142,000 - 200,000 years ago.

 

Here is a smattering of info out there on the subject;

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

 

Genus, tribe, subfamily, family, superfamily

 

If this were a family tree, homo (genus, humans) derived from hominini,  panini (genus, chimp and bonobo) derived also from hominini (tribe).  Hominini (tribe), is derived from homininae (subfamily).  Gorillini (tribe, Gorilla) is derived from  homininae (subfamily) not hominini (tribe).  Both Hominini and Gorillini are derived from homininae.  Homininae (subfamily) is derived from Hominidae (family).  Hominidae (family) is derived from Hominoidea (superfamily).

 

Hominidae.PNG

 

Therefore, the human link to chimps is hominini, the human link to gorillas is homininae.  The link to both chimps and gorillas to the humans is homininae.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_common_ancestor

 

The identical ancestors point for Homo sapiens has been estimated to between 15,000 and 5,000 years ago

Rohde DL, Olson S, Chang JT (September 2004). "Modelling the recent common ancestry of all living humans". Nature 431 (7008): 562–6. Bibcode 2004Natur.431..562R. doi:10.1038/nature02842. PMID 15457259.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee-human_last_common_ancestor

 

A source of confusion in determining the exact age of the Pan–Homo split is evidence of a more complex speciation process than a clean split between the two lineages. Different chromosomes appear to have split at different time, possibly over as much as a 4 million year period, indicating a long and drawn out speciation process with large scale hybridization events between the two emerging lineages.[4] Particularly the X chromosome shows very little difference between Humans and chimpanzees, though this effect may also partly be the result of rapid evolution of the X chromosome in the last common ancestors.[5] Complex speciation and incomplete lineage sorting of genetic sequences seem to also have happened in the split between our lineage and that of the gorilla, indicating "messy" speciation is the rule rather than exception in large-bodied primates.[6][7] Such a scenario would explain why divergence age between the Homo and Pan has varied with the chosen method and why a single point has been so far hard to track down.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor

 

In genetics, the most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of any set of organisms is the most recent individual from which all organisms in the group are directly descended. The term is often applied to human genealogy.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowest_common_ancestor

 

The lowest common ancestor (LCA) is a concept in graph theory and computer science. Let T be a rooted tree with n nodes. The lowest common ancestor is defined between two nodes v and w as the lowest node in T that has both v and w as descendants (where we allow a node to be a descendant of itself).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identical_ancestors_point

In genetic genealogy, the identical ancestors point (IAP) is that point in a given population's past where each individual then alive turned out to be either the ancestor of every individual alive now, or to have no living descendants at all. This point lies further in the past than the population's most recent common ancestor (MRCA).

The identical ancestors point for Homo sapiens has been estimated to between 15,000 and 5,000 years ago, with an estimate of the human MRCA living about 2,000 to 5,000 years ago, that is, estimating the IAP to be about three times as distant as the MRCA.[3] Note that both the matrilineal and the patrilineal human MRCAs are far more remote still, dating to some 200,000 and 142,000 years ago, respectively.

As the human genome consists of roughly 232 base pairs, the genetic contribution of a single ancestor through a single line may be flushed out of an individual's genome completely after 32 generations, or roughly 1,000 years.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominini

 

Through DNA comparison, scientists believe the Pan/Homo divergence occurred between 5.4 and 6.3 million years ago, after an unusual process of speciation that ranged over 4 million years.

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/05/humans-chimps.html

 

Early human ancestors and chimpanzee ancestors may have mated and produced offspring, according to a new DNA study.

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0831_050831_chimp_genes.html

 

Chimps, Humans 96 Percent the Same, Gene Study Finds
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I have not once insisted that understanding and accepting Evolution requires a lack of belief in god or god's handiwork.  Yet upwards of 4 people have continued to believe that's what I'm arguing, have called me names, and circle-jerked each other with rep points.  I've had two main points: 1. We evolved from a primate ancestor. 2. If you don't believe that your intuition, internal monologue, or "just what you feel in your heart" has anything pertinent to say when it comes to disagreeing with aeronautics engineer's latest casing design, or a petroleum chemists buffer pH, or a neuroscientist's study methodology, where do you get off thinking it has anything to say about our species phylogeny?  I keep wanting to defend them but no one is talking about those points.

 

Believe in as many gods as you want, I only have a problem (contrary to how I've been talked to here) when someone makes claims about the natural world on behalf of their god that contradict the understandings accumulated via the scientific method.

 

 

 

First off, spare me the victim shit. OK? I posted my beliefs and you challenged them.

(while ignoring the OP basically saying the same thing) Then you were "offended" after I gave it back to you. 

 

 

Believe in no Gods if you want. I don't care. I didn't jump in here to challenge anyone else's beliefs.

I didn't quote someone and tell them they are "ignorant", "uneducated" or any of that. I never claimed

to have all the answers, or any answers really. Just stated my beliefs. Yes I think things are too perfect

here for it all to have just happened. And if God "created the Heavens and the Earth, then I don't see how

life on other Planets blows my beliefs up. To be honest, I actually believe there is life on other Planets.

I also believe in Ghosts. I don't care what some Scientists say about there being no God anymore than

you care what the local  Preacher has to say about God. 

 

Really though, I haven't seen you say too much about what you believe. Just how stupid people are that

believe in (a) God. So why don't you step down off your soap box and share your thoughts on the subject.

Instead of sharing your thoughts on the people that have shared their thoughts on the subject? 

 

I know, what a novel idea, huh? 

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First off, spare me the victim shit. OK? I posted my beliefs and you challenged them.

(while ignoring the OP basically said the same thing) Then you were "offended" after I gave it back to you. 

 

 

Believe in no Gods if you want. I don't care. I didn't jump in here to challenge anyone else's beliefs.

I didn't quote someone and tell them they are "ignorant", "uneducated" or any of that. I never claimed

to have all the answers, or any answers really. Just stated my beliefs. Yes I think things are too perfect

here for it all to have just happened. And if God "created the Heavens and the Earth, then I don't see how

life on other Planets blows my beliefs up. To be honest, I actually believe there is life on other Planets.

I also believe in Ghosts. I don't care what some Scientists say anymore than you care what the local 

Preacher has to say. 

 

Really though, I haven't seen you say too much about what you believe. Just how stupid people are that

believe in (a) God. So why don't you step down off your soap box and share your thoughts on the subject.

Instead of sharing your thoughts on the people that have shared their thoughts on the subject? 

 

I know, what a novel idea, huh? 

 

To add, there has been no "circle jerk" and people giving each other rep points as he points out either.  I think he has little man's syndrome.  You're killin me smalls. 

 

I too believe in ghosts...my uncle suddenly started to go play with "3 really fair skinned kids" out of the blue one time as a kid....he would go for full days straight (leave in the am) and not come home until late and finally my grandmother had enough and wanted to meet these kids.  He took her to a house, stood outside in confusion as the house he pointed to was burnt down trace of a house.  My grandmother asked the neighbors what had happened and they stated that a while back, the house burnt down and it was a horrible tragedy as 3 kids died.  She asked if their names were the same as the names my uncle had given....they were.  The descriptions of the kids he gave were also exact.  

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To add, there has been no "circle jerk" and people giving each other rep points as he points out either.  I think he has little man's syndrome.  You're killin me smalls. 
 
I too believe in ghosts...my uncle suddenly started to go play with "3 really fair skinned kids" out of the blue one time as a kid....he would go for full days straight (leave in the am) and not come home until late and finally my grandmother had enough and wanted to meet these kids.  He took her to a house, stood outside in confusion as the house he pointed to was burnt down trace of a house.  My grandmother asked the neighbors what had happened and they stated that a while back, the house burnt down and it was a horrible tragedy as 3 kids died.  She asked if their names were the same as the names my uncle had given....they were.  The descriptions of the kids he gave were also exact.  

Didn't the neighbors wonder why the little brown boy was talking to himself in an empty lot all day? I love stories like that.
And to clarify my Hitler comment, yes he'd be wherever we all go but we don't keep our bodies so you wouldn't actually be able to sit down over a bowl of matza ball soup.
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First off, spare me the victim shit. OK? I posted my beliefs and you challenged them.

(while ignoring the OP basically saying the same thing) Then you were "offended" after I gave it back to you. 

 

 

Believe in no Gods if you want. I don't care. I didn't jump in here to challenge anyone else's beliefs.

I didn't quote someone and tell them they are "ignorant", "uneducated" or any of that. I never claimed

to have all the answers, or any answers really. Just stated my beliefs. Yes I think things are too perfect

here for it all to have just happened. And if God "created the Heavens and the Earth, then I don't see how

life on other Planets blows my beliefs up. To be honest, I actually believe there is life on other Planets.

I also believe in Ghosts. I don't care what some Scientists say about there being no God anymore than

you care what the local  Preacher has to say about God. 

 

Really though, I haven't seen you say too much about what you believe. Just how stupid people are that

believe in (a) God. So why don't you step down off your soap box and share your thoughts on the subject.

Instead of sharing your thoughts on the people that have shared their thoughts on the subject? 

 

I know, what a novel idea, huh? 

 

Victim?  I'm simply pointing out to the casual bystander your inability (and others) to grasp the train of thought I've been laying out.  You still confuse the mechanisms behind evolution with somehow proving there is no god and have yet to refute anything.  I mean I expected the classic "then how did an eye evolve" sort of questioning but instead you didn't even get there before throwing your hands up, reciting a bunch of gibberish and quickly escalating to name calling because you don't like the word ignorant.  Its clear by your lack of even scratching the surface of evolutionary discussion that you are IGNORANT about the subject.  So by all means continue to brag about how much you know we didn't evolve from monkeys because the atmosphere exists and that even though all genetic material is conserved in the same form, DNA, throughout all levels of organic life we couldn't possibly share an ancestor with fungus because the sun gives us heat and fire is warm.

 

I already shared my thoughts on the subject...without evidence I don't believe.  Your evidence (if you call it that) amounts to bullshit in any other physical area of study.  Tell me how your thoughts on just how perfect warmth from the sun is can help shed light on any of the findings from the Hadron Collider.  I'm sure that riveting insight will radically alter the way they look at their results.  

 

I think it was Harris who asked us to "think of one thing for which we once had a scientific answer, however inadequate, that we now discarded in favor of a religious answer."  How many can we think of that go the other way?  When it comes to evolution, I'm not saying (nor have I said) that it eliminates god.  But it does eliminate many of the things people think god does.  Its up to you to rectify that with your view of god...not me.  Unless you actually want to get into details about critiques of evolutionary mechanisms, but if we haven't gotten there yet I don't think we will.

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To add, there has been no "circle jerk" and people giving each other rep points as he points out either.  I think he has little man's syndrome.  You're killin me smalls. 

 

I too believe in ghosts...my uncle suddenly started to go play with "3 really fair skinned kids" out of the blue one time as a kid....he would go for full days straight (leave in the am) and not come home until late and finally my grandmother had enough and wanted to meet these kids.  He took her to a house, stood outside in confusion as the house he pointed to was burnt down trace of a house.  My grandmother asked the neighbors what had happened and they stated that a while back, the house burnt down and it was a horrible tragedy as 3 kids died.  She asked if their names were the same as the names my uncle had given....they were.  The descriptions of the kids he gave were also exact.  

 

You nailed it, I'm sad that people aren't rep'ing my posts.  There has definitely not been any piling on based on multiple posters misunderstanding.  And I'm small.

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Victim?

Yes.
 

I'm simply pointing out to the casual bystander your inability (and others) to grasp the train of thought I've been laying out.  You still confuse the mechanisms behind evolution with somehow proving there is no god and have yet to refute anything.  I mean I expected the classic "then how did an eye evolve" sort of questioning but instead you didn't even get there before throwing your hands up, reciting a bunch of gibberish and quickly escalating to name calling because you don't like the word ignorant.  Its clear by your lack of even scratching the surface of evolutionary discussion that you are IGNORANT about the subject.  So by all means continue to brag about how much you know we didn't evolve from monkeys because the atmosphere exists and that even though all genetic material is conserved in the same form, DNA, throughout all levels of organic life we couldn't possibly share an ancestor with fungus because the sun gives us heat and fire is warm.

But see, the part you missed is where I posted my beliefs and you came out question me about my post.
Like it was some fucking IQ test or something. And then proceeded to call me IGNORANT several times since then.

It was like talking to some "friends" at the bar and all of a sudden some a-hole wants to be an a-hole
and try to make you look stupid for stating your opinion and beliefs.

And by the way, I never once said anything about Evolution not existing. I even said it was plausible.
So what the fuck?
 

I already shared my thoughts on the subject...without evidence I don't believe.  Your evidence (if you call it that) amounts to bullshit in any other physical area of study.  Tell me how your thoughts on just how perfect warmth from the sun is can help shed light on any of the findings from the Hadron Collider.  I'm sure that riveting insight will radically alter the way they look at their results.  

I think it was Harris who asked us to "think of one thing for which we once had a scientific answer, however inadequate, that we now discarded in favor of a religious answer."  How many can we think of that go the other way?  When it comes to evolution, I'm not saying (nor have I said) that it eliminates god.  But it does eliminate many of the things people think god does.  Its up to you to rectify that with your view of god...not me.  Unless you actually want to get into details about critiques of evolutionary mechanisms, but if we haven't gotten there yet I don't think we will.

So you're an Atheist then right? Just go ahead and say it.
It's OK. I won't call you stupid or ignorant and think less of you.
Just like I shouldn't have been called that. See how that works?

I don't need evidence for everything in my life for me to think or believe it to be true.
Did you get DNA tests for all your kids or do you just believe? lol Do you ever just believe
in something?

If you want to call me "ignorant" on Evolution, go ahead. I mean, I'm not some fucking scholar,
but I know the basics of it. I don't read about it like it is a "Holy" book or something though.
Hell, I don't even read any Holy book much.



I just personally choose to believe in a Higher power and a "heaven like" place for all the good people
and a "hell like" place for all the evil doers. Maybe I think too highly of the Human race. But I like to
think your life here means more than that of any other living creature on this Planet. Even with a lack
of "evidence" as far as what a test, calculation or some other method to tell me what I think to be real is real.
Maybe that's because I lost people near and dear to me that I hope they truly are in a better
place and not just dust in the wind. Maybe I'll be wrong when I die. Maybe you'll be right. I just point to
what my Dad told me when I was younger. I'd rather be wrong believing the way I do, than to be wrong believing
the way you do. It's that simple. At the end of the day I don't need to validate those thoughts or beliefs to
you or anyone else. I was just sharing them before. And I have been quizzed and demeaned for it. lol I know I
shot back. But only after fired upon a couple of times. And for my part I apologize.

Anyway, that's why I said earlier I don't post my thoughts for debate. And I gave you a rep point so you 

would feel cool and part of the circle jerk. 

Good day to you sir.

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i do not believe that the earth revolves around the sun

 

nor do i believe that living things are made of cells, or furthermore that all matter is made of atoms

 

I also dont believe that germs cause diseases or that the earth's crust is constructed of massive, moving techtonic plates

 

and I dont believe in evelution

 

show me proof

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Didn't the neighbors wonder why the little brown boy was talking to himself in an empty lot all day? I love stories like that.
And to clarify my Hitler comment, yes he'd be wherever we all go but we don't keep our bodies so you wouldn't actually be able to sit down over a bowl of matza ball soup.

 

 

Did the neighbor ever see your uncle playing over there by himself? You would think they would considering he was there all day.

That's spooky.

 

 

This took place in a Pakistani town/village.....houses are kinda far apart so noone would have noticed.  I asked the same thing haha.  I looked at my uncle like he was making shit up but he and my grandmother both swear to this day as to what happened then.  The thing that made me believe it was when my grandmother told the story and got goosebumps when she got to the part about the neighbors confirming my uncle's info about the 3 little very fair skinned kids. 

 

I've seen ghosts myself and had some crazy shit happen that cannot be explained (by science or anything else).   I definitely believe in the unseen.  

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  • 1 year later...

http://www.inquisitr.com/1345759/atheists-may-not-exist-according-to-science/
 

Atheists may not exist.

 

This rather shocking statement may seem like a bit of click-bait, but it’s actually the conclusion many scientists — some of them avowed atheists themselves — are starting to buy in to.

According to Science 2.0 writer Nury Vittachi, an examination of several scholarly findings puts forth the theory that even atheists believe in something.

 

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http://www.inquisitr.com/1345759/atheists-may-not-exist-according-to-science/
 
Atheists may not exist.

 

This rather shocking statement may seem like a bit of click-bait, but its actually the conclusion many scientists some of them avowed atheists themselves are starting to buy in to.

According to Science 2.0 writer Nury Vittachi, an examination of several scholarly findings puts forth the theory that even atheists believe in something.

 


Without trying to sound like an idiot... Doesn't this study simply confirm that humans are ingrained with beliefs which is what faith is. Atheists believe there is no God. Christians believe in God. According to this study both are simply following their beliefs which are ingrained in our DNA. Being a Christian is NOT part of someone's DNA but I could see humans ability to believe in one thing or another. Remember this is only an opinion from me and not a fact. You are welcome to call my opinion a belief.
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Without trying to sound like an idiot... Doesn't this study simply confirm that humans are ingrained with beliefs which is what faith is. Atheists believe there is no God. Christians believe in God. According to this study both are simply following their beliefs which are ingrained in our DNA. Being a Christian is NOT part of someone's DNA but I could see humans ability to believe in one thing or another. Remember this is only an opinion from me and not a fact. You are welcome to call my opinion a belief.

 

I have done both, been a christian, and then later decided that  wasnt true(IMO) and and am an atheist. My wife is a christian(or so she pretends) her family is a bunch of religious folk.

 

I decided that some of the best people in my life have been christian, muslim, atheist, so it didnt matter, there was going to be no blanket "good person group" some of the best human beings in my life currently are all of the above, and my goal is to be, as an atheist, one of the best human beings in as many peoples lives as i can.

 

what spurns be about religion is that most(yes most) religious people, knowingly or not, view themselves as better people for going to church or just saying they are christian.

 

when i go back to ohio in 3-4 days, i will be avoiding this topic in public, as being an atheist in the midwest basically makes you a devil worshiping psychopath people dont want to be associated with.(in most cases).

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I have done both, been a christian, and then later decided that  wasnt true(IMO) and and am an atheist. My wife is a christian(or so she pretends) her family is a bunch of religious folk.

 

I decided that some of the best people in my life have been christian, muslim, atheist, so it didnt matter, there was going to be no blanket "good person group" 

 

Wrong, mormons.

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I have done both, been a christian, and then later decided that  wasnt true(IMO) and and am an atheist. My wife is a christian(or so she pretends) her family is a bunch of religious folk.

 

I decided that some of the best people in my life have been christian, muslim, atheist, so it didnt matter, there was going to be no blanket "good person group" some of the best human beings in my life currently are all of the above, and my goal is to be, as an atheist, one of the best human beings in as many peoples lives as i can.

 

what spurns be about religion is that most(yes most) religious people, knowingly or not, view themselves as better people for going to church or just saying they are christian.

 

when i go back to ohio in 3-4 days, i will be avoiding this topic in public, as being an atheist in the midwest basically makes you a devil worshiping psychopath people dont want to be associated with.(in most cases).

 

Yes... 

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