What should we be paying Andre? (He reportedly wants $9 million per year)

[eva4ben-gal]

I think there's a lot of people on here that over value Andre almost as much as he does. No way the dude is the best RT in the league, not top 5 either. He's worth a nice sum, but his work ethic hasn't been great enough and he is not a shut down blocker like Willie was. Maybe Andre and the Bengals would be best served to sign a two or three year deal with escalators and options for future years. I do want him back, but he hasn't shown anything that makes me think he's a franchise player or locker room leader that you build a team around and if the Bengals think it's better to let somebody else overpay him and replace him in a deep OT draft then I think they're in a better position to judge than me. I think it's weird that we've heard plenty from MJ on his desire to return but nothing that I can remember from Andre. Maybe he is all about the money, in which case he's not a Mike Brown kinda guy and probably won't be back.

[Bengals1181]

I'm not talking the numbers in the contract, 1181, I'm talking about looking at the way that contracts are structured in the NFL and the fact that you seem to want to low ball everyone.  That's why I asked if you were Mike Brown.

 

 

you've got one thing right, when I'm thinking about what kinds of contracts guys should get, I DO think about it in the context of if it were my money.  I don't just act like some fan who says "we gotta keep that guy, give him whatever he wants! He says $9 million, where do I sign!"

 

 

So no, if I WERE Mike Brown, no I wouldn't pay my right tackle more money than what 25 of the left tackles in the league were making.

[|kennethmw|]

so going back to this, the per year average for the top 3 RT's after Andre (who was already the highest paid RT in the league) is $5.7 million per season.

 

In other words, if there was a franchise tag just for Right Tackles, it would be around $5.7 million (and its actually ballooned thanks to Andre's contract.  

 

 

There's just no justification for giving a RT $9 million per season, more than 25 starting Left tackles in the league and more than $2.5 more per season than the next closest right tackle.

 

What years did they sign the contracts, 1181?  I guess you think the dollars are static.  That's why Baltimore just gave Flacco the same contract NY gave Eli, right?  And just so you don't have to look, Diehl and Stewart both signed theirs in 2008. 

[Le Tigre]

 
What's the old saying "You're better to deal with the devil you know, rather than the devil you don't."  If you're going to pay market, or even above market like my friend 1181 says I'm saying, then you probably are better to do it with Andre.  Just look at the times we haven't, TJ and Bryant and  Smith and Odom are a couple of the more recent ones.

That's what I'm saying...you said it better.

[Bengals1181]

What years did they sign the contracts, 1181?  I guess you think the dollars are static.  That's why Baltimore just gave Flacco the same contract NY gave Eli, right?  And just so you don't have to look, Diehl and Stewart both signed theirs in 2008. 

 

 

it doesn't change the fact that you don't start paying RT's LT money.  You're always talking about "the market".  Andre IS the market.  He already is the highest paid RT in the league.  There's no one else out there you have to worry about giving him more money than.  

 

So in 2008 a top flight RT was worth somewhere just south of $6 million (also for perspective, the other guy on that list, Herremanns, signed his deal last march and is $5 million/yr).

 

So if 2008 a top RT is worth $6 million, I'd say somewhere in the $7-$8 million range is pretty fair in 2013.  As for dollars being static, the current salary cap for the 2013 season is actually $5 million less than what it was in 2008.

[|kennethmw|]

it doesn't change the fact that you don't start paying RT's LT money.  You're always talking about "the market".  Andre IS the market.  He already is the highest paid RT in the league.  There's no one else out there you have to worry about giving him more money than.  

 

So in 2008 a top flight RT was worth somewhere just south of $6 million (also for perspective, the other guy on that list, Herremanns, signed his deal last march and is $5 million/yr).

 

So if 2008 a top RT is worth $6 million, I'd say somewhere in the $7-$8 million range is pretty fair in 2013.  As for dollars being static, the current salary cap for the 2013 season is actually $5 million less than what it was in 2008.

 

I do like debating with you!!  First, Herremanns not in Andre's league, not close.  Secondly, the question is "do they think he's one of the top ten T's in the league?"   If they do, then position be damned, pay the man.  Third, why do you think he would be willing to sign for the same amount that they offered him for the first two of those years, 4 years ago?

[sparky151]

Nobody is going to give Andre 9 mil a year, especially the Bengals. He's not worth 50% more than Whitworth. If he leaves the team will take a 2014 comp pick and draft a replacement or sign another FA tackle. The FA market is fairly soft this year due to lots of tackles available. I think the most likely course is the team tells him to find out his market value, it's around 7 mil and they offer to match. Maybe he takes that, maybe he doesn't. There's simply no reason to overpay Andre when they need so much money for the now super high priced D-line.

[Bengals1181]

I do like debating with you!!  First, Herremanns not in Andre's league, not close.  Secondly, the question is "do they think he's one of the top ten T's in the league?"   If they do, then position be damned, pay the man.  Third, why do you think he would be willing to sign for the same amount that they offered him for the first two of those years, 4 years ago?

 

 

you mean the last two of the years? I didn't.  The two voided years was $14  million, so either way it works out to $7 million/yr.

 

I think $8 million/yr is plenty fair.  He's entering his prime, and sure the average for a top 5 RT will certainly go up.  That doesn't mean you wildly overpay for him.

[JBandJoeyV]

I just think people look at our cap space this year and just assume we have to sign him. I just dont think its that easy. Hell I think we would be better off front loading the contract then backloading it. We have money in 2013, but we are likely going to be tight on money come 2015 and beyond when we have long term contracts for guys like Geno, AJ, Dalton, etc.

[JBandJoeyV]

Nobody is going to give Andre 9 mil a year, especially the Bengals. He's not worth 50% more than Whitworth. If he leaves the team will take a 2014 comp pick and draft a replacement or sign another FA tackle. The FA market is fairly soft this year due to lots of tackles available. I think the most likely course is the team tells him to find out his market value, it's around 7 mil and they offer to match. Maybe he takes that, maybe he doesn't. There's simply no reason to overpay Andre when they need so much money for the now super high priced D-line.

 

Agreed.

 

It might open a hole, but lets say you then use 21 on a guy like Fluker (if hes there). You would have to pay him what like 2-3 mil a year? That would give you an extra 6-7 mil a year to fill other holes in FA like LB, S, etc.

 

Dont get me wrong, I want andre, but not at any price.

[Bengals1181]

Nobody is going to give Andre 9 mil a year, especially the Bengals. He's not worth 50% more than Whitworth. If he leaves the team will take a 2014 comp pick and draft a replacement or sign another FA tackle. The FA market is fairly soft this year due to lots of tackles available. I think the most likely course is the team tells him to find out his market value, it's around 7 mil and they offer to match. Maybe he takes that, maybe he doesn't. There's simply no reason to overpay Andre when they need so much money for the now super high priced D-line.

 

I mentioned it yesterday, but I think the 3 day window teams have to negotiate with players not on their team will work great for the way the Bengals do business (ie letting guys see what their market worth is).  In Andre's case it will give he and his agent 3 days to go out and see what the market is, but they won't be able to sign with anyone but the Bengals during that time.  

[|kennethmw|]

you mean the last two of the years? I didn't.  The two voided years was $14  million, so either way it works out to $7 million/yr.

 

I think $8 million/yr is plenty fair.  He's entering his prime, and sure the average for a top 5 RT will certainly go up.  That doesn't mean you wildly overpay for him.

 

I can see how a million extra a year would be "wildly overpaying". :D

[T-Dub]

I can see how a million extra a year would be "wildly overpaying". :D

 

When you're already making around $2m more than anyone else, yeah it is...

 

Also LOL at the "it's only a million dollars" stuff..  Tell me that's not at least a decimal point more loot than you've ever seen in your life.

[Bengals1181]

I can see how a million extra a year would be "wildly overpaying". :D

 

 

yea, I can't imagine what they could do with that $5 million total :shrug:

 

You could probably sign Adam Jones to a 3yr deal with that amount.  Certainly a 2yr deal.

[|kennethmw|]

When you're already making around $2m more than anyone else, yeah it is...

 

Also LOL at the "it's only a million dollars" stuff..  Tell me that's not at least a decimal point more loot than you've ever seen in your life.

 

Sure it is, but dollars are dollars.  You make what the market will bear for what you do.  But I see it all the time in my industry, GM's in the car business think if you're making 90 a year, that's ok, but if you're making 110, it's too much, and then wonder why they have high turnover and always seem to be spinning their wheels.  Thank God, mine is smarter than that!

[thedaltonshow]

This is not hard, people. Andre is a good player and a major piece of our young offense.  Make him the highest paid RT in the league; we have the money for it.  Lock him up, and give him some major incentives in his contract for performance/weight goals.

[JBandJoeyV]

This is not hard, people. Andre is a good player and a major piece of our young offense.  Make him the highest paid RT in the league; we have the money for it.  Lock him up, and give him some major incentives in his contract for performance/weight goals.

 

There is a difference between making him the highest paid RT in the league and giving him 9M a year. Thats the major point of this discussion actually.

[Bengals1181]

This is not hard, people. Andre is a good player and a major piece of our young offense.  Make him the highest paid RT in the league; we have the money for it.  Lock him up, and give him some major incentives in his contract for performance/weight goals.

He already IS the highest paid RT in the league.

[|kennethmw|]

There is a difference between making him the highest paid RT in the league and giving him 9M a year. Thats the major point of this discussion actually.

 

Let me put it to you this way, JB, I HOPE beyond HOPE that all of you are right, and that the market establishes itself for Andre at 6-7 million a year, and that we are able to lock him up for the next 4-6 years at a number like that.  However, if the Market shows that someone is willing to pay him the 9 mill a season that he wants, I hope the Bengals are willing to step up and keep him, since we are the one's that have brought him to this point.  It doesn't make sense to me to keep starting over again and again, when you have a solid roster and an opportunity to shine.

[|High School Harry|]

OK Harry..who would this better and cheaper guy be?

 

Wait and see what happens and what shakes down.

[spicoli]

From Rotoworld w/ Rotoworld comments:

Profootballtalk.com passes along "word" that free agent RT Andre Smith is seeking $9 million a year.

It'd be top-shelf left tackle money -- for a right tackle -- and a significant leap up from the contract signed late last week by Giants LT William Beatty, which averages $7.75 million annually. Smith recently turned 26 and was arguably the best right tackle in football last season. We tend to doubt Smith will get $9 million a year, but all bets are off if he reaches the open market.

Source: Profootballtalk on NBC Sports

[JBandJoeyV]

Let me put it to you this way, JB, I HOPE beyond HOPE that all of you are right, and that the market establishes itself for Andre at 6-7 million a year, and that we are able to lock him up for the next 4-6 years at a number like that.  However, if the Market shows that someone is willing to pay him the 9 mill a season that he wants, I hope the Bengals are willing to step up and keep him, since we are the one's that have brought him to this point.  It doesn't make sense to me to keep starting over again and again, when you have a solid roster and an opportunity to shine.

 

How many guys do you think we can afford to have be the top paid player at their position? How many 10 plus mil year a guys do you think we will be able to have on this roster? Im not talking about 2013 but 2014, 2015 and beyond.

 

By 2015 AJ will likely be making 15M a year. Atkins probably 10 plus. Dalton by then if he has a couple good years will easily get 10M even if he is just a slightly above average type QB. Those guys still get paid bank. If he has some pro bowl years that number will shoot closer to 15M. MJ and Dunlap? If we keep one of them long term it will be likely 8M plus a year, if we keep both, double that probably.

 

Call me cheap, call me mike brown, call me whatever you want. But at the end of the day it is just way to simple to say "We have 40M in cap space, he is a top RT in the game, pay him whatever he wants". Just doesnt seem to be that easy to me.

 

My guess (not necessarily what I want, but my guess) is that we sign him for somewhere in the 7M a year range or he walks. I just dont think we are going to pay him 9M a year if he gets that on the open market. Just not gonna happen IMO.

[Le Tigre]

 
Agreed.
 
It might open a hole, but lets say you then use 21 on a guy like Fluker (if hes there). You would have to pay him what like 2-3 mil a year? That would give you an extra 6-7 mil a year to fill other holes in FA like LB, S, etc.
 
Dont get me wrong, I want andre, but not at any price.

This is what I'm saying...you waste a first round pick on somebody you HOPE hits the ground running and performs as good or better than what you already have. This is an extraordinary expectation...obviously still possible, but high risk. And, even if he pans out eventually...you downgrade the position now--just when you need all of your best talent linemen on deck.

This approach is like running in place. You never really get ahead.

[Bengals1181]

Smith is the embodiment of what was wrong with the old system. He was making about $3 million more per season than he should have been making on a rookie deal. Aj Green is making less than $5 million per season on his rookie deal. Smith is making $7 million. Heck, Andrew Luck is only making $5.5 million per season as the #1 pick under the new system.

[JBandJoeyV]

This is what I'm saying...you waste a first round pick on somebody you HOPE hits the ground running and performs as good or better than what you already have. This is an extraordinary expectation...obviously still possible, but high risk. And, even if he pans out eventually...you downgrade the position now--just when you need all of your best talent linemen on deck.

This approach is like running in place. You never really get ahead.

 

Lets say this team has 4 holes right now (assuming we sign our other FAs outside of Andre). RT, LB, S, and RB. Everyone is wanting to fill RT with Andre and then fill the other 3 in the first 2 rounds of the draft (or most people are anyways). Lets say it costs us 9M a year to retain Andre. Then we draft a LB, S, and RB early and expect those rookies to play well right away.

 

What if instead we take the 9 mil and sign a solid starting LB and solid starting S. Maybe not top tier guys, but solid starters none the less. Now we only have holes at RT and RB. Find a good RT prospect in the first two rounds and let him compete with collins or wharton or whoever. Maybe RT isnt as good as it was in 2012, but you can probably be assured that the LB and S positions will be cause we signed solid FAs in those two spots. It would also likely be easier to extend other guys in the future as we wont have a big 9-10 M contract on the books for Andre.

 

Im not saying this is what will happen or that this is necessarily what I want to happen, im just saying how good this offseason is doesnt completely hinge on whether or not we resign Andre.