Skins changing their name?

[scharm]

Redskin - Red heads that spend too much time in the sun.

[|Numbers|]

 

Sure, just as soon as you give an example of the innocent, harmless alternate meaning for "Redskin"

 

Foreskins ?  Redtails ?

 

I believe they should remove the Redskin name because it is derogatory.  That is not my point right now.  My point is, at what point does the removal of names that are offensive stop ?  The bill everyone is talking about will not stop the names from existing and will not stop anyone from using them.  It will only prevent them from being trademarked.

[Jamie_B]

Dan Snyder is an asshat.

 

That is all.

[Marvin]

I didn't know you lived there.  As part of an Anthropology course I took, we learned about the Kennewick man.  Dr. James Chatter who recovered and examined the remains came to the Falls of the Ohio center (Indiana).  If anyone wanted extra credit they had to go sit through the briefing and give a brief write up on what was learned.  Out of a class of about 30 or so, I was the only one there.  The place was packed with a lot of educational types and turned out to be a very nice event.  The finding of the Kennewick man created quite the stir in the various nations or tribes in America (including the Yakima).  Unfortunately for the tribes, Kennewick man matched no tribes in America.  He wasn't a Caucasian and wasn't part of the tribes known in America so what was he ?  Later studies revealed that Kennewick man was most likely part of the Sundadont.

I'm an archaeologist based out of Portland, OR and have worked with Jim on a dozen or so projects. He is still really bent of shape by people questioning his Kennewick analysis. For the most part he is a brilliant archaeologist but I have seen him fly off the handle when colleagues, even delicately, question him at conferences. We all joke it's the clearest case of "little man syndrome" we've ever witnessed. He's 5'5 and 135 lbs soaking wet. I've heard he wasn't much as a field tech because he couldn't physically do a lot of the work.

Anyway, this is the last place I thought Chatter's name would come up so I thought I'd respond.

[CincyInDC]

 

Sure, just as soon as you give an example of the innocent, harmless alternate meaning for "Redskin"

 

Ok.

 

[Go Skins]

Dan Snyder is an asshat.

 

That is all.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-redskins-owner-daniel-snyder-says-team-will-never-change-name-20130510,0,3394481.story

 

 

Washington Redskins owner Daniel Snyder said that the football team is going to stick with its name.

"We will never change the name of the team," Snyder told USA Today. "As a lifelong Redskins fan, and I think that the Redskins fans understand the great tradition and what it's all about and what it means, so we feel pretty fortunate to be just working on next season."

 

Snyder's comments come a week after David Grosso, a District of Columbia councilman, said he plans to introduce a resolution that would call on the Redskins to change their moniker.

 

Grosso called the Redskins name “racist and derogatory" and suggested that the team should be known as the Redtails in honor of the Tuskegee Airmen.

Snyder said that's not going to happen.

[sois]

 

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-redskins-owner-daniel-snyder-says-team-will-never-change-name-20130510,0,3394481.story

 

 

Washington Redskins owner Daniel Snyder said that the football team is going to stick with its name.

"We will never change the name of the team," Snyder told USA Today. "As a lifelong Redskins fan, and I think that the Redskins fans understand the great tradition and what it's all about and what it means, so we feel pretty fortunate to be just working on next season."

 

Snyder's comments come a week after David Grosso, a District of Columbia councilman, said he plans to introduce a resolution that would call on the Redskins to change their moniker.

 

Grosso called the Redskins name “racist and derogatory" and suggested that the team should be known as the Redtails in honor of the Tuskegee Airmen.

Snyder said that's not going to happen.

 

 

the Red Tails sounds like a badass name if your logo gets to be a bomber airplane.  

[|Numbers|]

I'm an archaeologist based out of Portland, OR and have worked with Jim on a dozen or so projects. He is still really bent of shape by people questioning his Kennewick analysis. For the most part he is a brilliant archaeologist but I have seen him fly off the handle when colleagues, even delicately, question him at conferences. We all joke it's the clearest case of "little man syndrome" we've ever witnessed. He's 5'5 and 135 lbs soaking wet. I've heard he wasn't much as a field tech because he couldn't physically do a lot of the work.

Anyway, this is the last place I thought Chatter's name would come up so I thought I'd respond.

 

That is so cool.  He seemed like a nice enough guy to me.  He signed my book.  I might have been one of the few who actually read the book before meeting him so I was able to ask him questions somewhat intelligently.  Yes he seemed full of himself but a lot of brilliant people appear this way to me so it doesn't bother me in the least.  I wrote my first perfect paper based upon our brief discussion calling race an outdated concept.  Chatters was one of the few people I met during school, not one of my professors, that had an influence during my time in school.  Note:  I have since forgotten how to string a sentence together...much less an entire paper...

 

I still find it funny that Chatters would not have received ANY notoriety had it not been for a couple guys trying to sneak into the boat race without paying.

[scharm]

 

Ok.

 

 

Hilarious. 

[Marvin]

That is so cool.  He seemed like a nice enough guy to me.  He signed my book.  I might have been one of the few who actually read the book before meeting him so I was able to ask him questions somewhat intelligently.  Yes he seemed full of himself but a lot of brilliant people appear this way to me so it doesn't bother me in the least.  I wrote my first perfect paper based upon our brief discussion calling race an outdated concept.  Chatters was one of the few people I met during school, not one of my professors, that had an influence during my time in school.  Note:  I have since forgotten how to string a sentence together...much less an entire paper...
 
I still find it funny that Chatters would not have received ANY notoriety had it not been for a couple guys trying to sneak into the boat race without paying.

I didn't mean to sound so harsh. He's a good guy, who takes his academic leanings very seriously. I've learned a lot from him about methods for research design. His projects have always been efficient with very clear goals, more than I can say about a lot of other firms in the field.

I think race is still relevant. But when it comes to establishing cultural affiliation (Kennewick Man and other early Holocene remains) from DNA that is 9,000+ years old the "family tree" is profoundly bushy and it's nearly impossible to narrowly define affiliation. Then you have a specimen like Kennewick, who seems to be an interloper (physiological anomaly) compared to other specimen found in the region, from the same epoch. I love this stuff.

[|Numbers|]

I didn't mean to sound so harsh. He's a good guy, who takes his academic leanings very seriously. I've learned a lot from him about methods for research design. His projects have always been efficient with very clear goals, more than I can say about a lot of other firms in the field.

I think race is still relevant. But when it comes to establishing cultural affiliation (Kennewick Man and other early Holocene remains) from DNA that is 9,000+ years old the "family tree" is profoundly bushy and it's nearly impossible to narrowly define affiliation. Then you have a specimen like Kennewick, who seems to be an interloper (physiological anomaly) compared to other specimen found in the region, from the same epoch. I love this stuff.

 

Its all good, I wasn't really defending him either but my experiences are not always the same as others might be.  I find it easier to be friends with someone I don't have to work with and Chatters does not sound like an easy person to work with.

Race is relevant but it is an outdated concept (when it comes time for defining what race is or is not).  Can you define race as something other than referencing a person's skin color ?  Your definition (because I know what field you are most likely in) will differ greatly from the common masses definition of what race is.

 

Correct me at any time if you think this is wrong...

 

Imagine, just for a moment, if we stopped branding people as a race but we defined races based upon genetic and hereditary traits and not an outdated concept of how we look.  Determining ancestry by skin color is not scientific.  Genetic analysis is scientific and does take into account all of the items which define a race. 

 

For example, medical professionals sometimes require knowledge of ancestry to determine what treatment to administer.  However, imagine if all doctors saw was the color of a person’s skin they would most likely have disastrous results and possibly even death if they administered the wrong medicine or treatment plan...

 

“Conventional racial groupings differ from one another by only 6 %, while those within the group differ as much as 94%”

 

In short, I may have more in common with an African or an Asian than I do with a Caucasian.  Yet, I am labeled White.

[AmishBengalFan]

 

Wow, you are so obtuse I'm surprised you can fit through your front door.

 

Native: A person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth, whether subsequently resident there or not.

 

American: A native or citizen of the United States.

 

 

I am a Native American, just as I am a Native Ohioan and a Native Daytonian.  It's the politically-correct crowd that co-opts words to twist them into their own meaning, and folks like you that swallow that arrogance hook, line, and sinker.  Fight the deception.  Be a man and not just another bleating sheep, regurgitating PC nonsense.  You've got a brain between your ears, use it to educate yourself rather than throw around insults based in your own ignorance.  You'll be a happier person once you've begun to think for yourself.

 

By the way, you DO understand that except for the occasional tourist from the USA, or possibly a person with dual citizenship, that there's not a single African-American person in Canada, right?  I've been there - many many times - and there's not even a single one.

[CincyInDC]

 

Native: A person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth, whether subsequently resident there or not.

 

American: A native or citizen of the United States.

 

 

I am a Native American, just as I am a Native Ohioan and a Native Daytonian.  It's the politically-correct crowd that co-opts words to twist them into their own meaning, and folks like you that swallow that arrogance hook, line, and sinker.  Fight the deception.  Be a man and not just another bleating sheep, regurgitating PC nonsense.  You've got a brain between your ears, use it to educate yourself rather than throw around insults based in your own ignorance.  You'll be a happier person once you've begun to think for yourself.

 

By the way, you DO understand that except for the occasional tourist from the USA, or possibly a person with dual citizenship, that there's not a single African-American person in Canada, right?  I've been there - many many times - and there's not even a single one.

 

Wow, you are more obtuse than I though.  How do you fit down the street?

 

Watch, I can play as well: the Western Hemisphere is known as the Americas, so anyone who is born from Canada to Chile is a Native Amercian, too.  Well, don't include the part of Antarctica that Chile claims is theirs.  1) Chile can't has Antarctica and 2) it's not a part of the Americas.

[AmishBengalFan]

 

Wow, you are more obtuse than I though.  How do you fit down the street?

 

Watch, I can play as well: the Western Hemisphere is known as the Americas, so anyone who is born from Canada to Chile is a Native Amercian, too.  Well, don't include the part of Antarctica that Chile claims is theirs.  1) Chile can't has Antarctica and 2) it's not a part of the Americas.

 

 

#1 - That was your second Ad Hominem attack against me.  You've already lost the debate when you commit the fallacy of saying something akin to, "oh yeah, well, you're ugly!"   Thanks for the concession. :good3:    

#2 - You are correct.  Both the Northern and Southern American continents are part of "The Americas", although I am uncertain what point you are trying to make.  If you're still trying to argue to win some sort of debate with me, the departure of the Ad Hominem Express from the train station has already concluded that.

 

Checking out of this thread now, but go ahead and enjoy yourself here.  :wave:

 

[sois]

Amish, this is a sad showing by you.  

[Sea Ray]

Snyder's already said that there's no way in hell he's changing the name so those of you in the PC crowd that think otherwise can just bark at the moon. It ain't happenin'

[sois]

We will see if he changes his tune if his copyright rights get overturned.  Then we will see where his loyalties lie.

[HaydenM]

The term Native American, as it is commonly used, is just stupid and makes no sense.

[sois]

The term Native American, as it is commonly used, is just stupid and makes no sense.

That's true

[Marvin]

 In short, I may have more in common with an African or an Asian than I do with a Caucasian.  Yet, I am labeled White.

You are white (if you are). Hopefully people will treat you like Numbers (another discussion) and not like "white". I work with the tribes on nearly every job and have had a lot of discussions about this very issue. I've found it's more beneficial to treat an individual as such and leave preconception behind.

I am more similar to a Nez Perce archaeologist than I am to a white, corporate IT tech.

[mongo]

Saw the PFT post saying members of Congress had written a letter to Snyder saying “Native Americans throughout the country consider the R-word a racial, derogatory slur akin to the N-word among African Americans or the W-word among Latinos..."

 

From the reading I've done, it's just not that simple:

 

For one thing, it's debatable just how significant the disdain is among American Indians. Sports Illustrated's poll of American Indians showed about 90% don't have any issue with it... Someone in one of these threads suggested polls with much different findings, but I'm not sure what polls those are, or who was polled.

 

Another consideration is the origin and early usage. People have been quick to equate redskin to all of the harshest of racial slurs, and the lead plaintiff in the lawsuits against the Redskins says it's a sickening term with roots in the bounty hunting practice of scalping Americans Indians to prove you'd killed them (when bounties existed for killing American Indians).... but that doesn't appear to be quite accurate. The senior linguist for the Smithsonian Institution researched the origins of "redskin", and wrote a 20 page paper on his findings (I've honestly only read the first 3 pages, and skimmed the rest). The Washington Post also wrote an article that references it quite a bit (and is much shorter). In essence, "redskin" was a term created by the American Indians to describe themselves in the 1700's. It was then used almost exclusively by "red skins" for decades, with it's first known English use by James Madison in a speech given to Indian chiefs following the War of 1812. It was popularized by James Fenimore Cooper, who wrote of the American Indians with care and respect (Last of the Mohicans, and the Leatherstocking series). By the 1870's it was in the common vernacular, and starts to pop up in disparaging reference to the American Indians. Hollywood didn't do the term any favors in the boom of Westerns.

 

Something that bugs me about this, is what bugs me about all of the PC'ing of 'Indian' names. It seems to serve to strip away any reference to American Indians that doesn't involve casinos or crushing poverty... Miami Redskins became Redhawks. Most of the 'Squaw' references in Maine have been changed to 'Moose'. Warriors, Indians, Braves, and the like in high schools around the country are changing to names without a hint of American Indian in them. It seems like the solution, often times agreed upon by the American Indians, is to erase them from the world.

 

I think the name 'Redskin,' with it's proud roots as the Indian term they gave themselves as the original inhabitants of the Americas, is salvageable. I also think it probably should be. It was a positive term for decades and decades (something 'the N-word' never was, which is part of what bugs me about that argument). Take it back (if it even needs to be taken back. Seems to me people haven't been disparaging American Indians for some time). Keep it, and the American Indians, relevant in society.

 

To me, the change that should be made is the logo. While I believe 'Redskin' is a term worth strong roots that are worth reclaiming, the logo probably isn't. The 'classic' visual style of the logo, in my opinion, draws from the wooden Indians and circus posters of the late 1800's. While not necessarily damning, that was also the time (and media) of the popularization of the blackface performers and lawn jockey statues... It's a bad visual style to use when coupled with a word like "redskin" that has some tarnish.

 

I think Washington should consider keeping the name, and changing the logo to something with a better visual style. Go with something traditional to the tribes of the region... Seems like a potential win win. Get the bad press off your back, include the American Indians in the design process, retain and polish the Redskin name, sell a crapload old Redskin merchandise to the old faithful, and sell new gear to everyone else.

[|Numbers|]

You are white (if you are). Hopefully people will treat you like Numbers (another discussion) and not like "white". I work with the tribes on nearly every job and have had a lot of discussions about this very issue. I've found it's more beneficial to treat an individual as such and leave preconception behind.

I am more similar to a Nez Perce archaeologist than I am to a white, corporate IT tech.

 

Unfortunately, the Census Bureau doesn't have a box marked with Nez Perce Archaeologist.  I would guess you find it very rewarding to interact with different cultures.  Your job is definitely not a job for those with preconceived notions.

 

On a side note:  Have you "converted" any of them into Bengal fans ?...

[Le Tigre]

I wonder if anyone who goes to school in Boone, NC gets offended if they are called Appalachian?

[Go Skins]

http://www.nbcwashington.com/blogs/capital-games/Roger-Goodell-Responds-To-Congress-Defends-Redskins-Name-211180861.html?_osource=SocialFlowFB_DCBrand

 

Last month, 10 members of Congress sent a letter to NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell (among others), urging him to consider changing the name of Washington's professional football team. You know, the one that begins with "R" and ends with "edskins."

 

Well, Goodell responded to that letter last week and defended the team's name, saying that it is "a unifying force that stands for strength, courage, pride and respect."

"As you correctly recognize, the issues raised with respect to the Washington Redskins name are complex, and we respect that reasonable people may view it differently, particularly over time," wrote Goodell, who cited public opinion polls showing that most don't consider the name to be offensive. "The National Football League takes seriously its responsibility to exemplify the values of diversity and inclusion that make our country great."

 

(Deadspin has the entire letter here.)

 

In a response released as part of a joint statement with Delegate Eni Faleomavaega (D-American Samoa), Rep. Betty McCollum (D-Minn.) was none too pleased.

"Goodell's letter is another attempt to justify a racial slur on behalf of (Redskins owner) Dan Snyder and other NFL owners who appear to be only concerned with earning ever larger profits, even if it means exploiting a racist stereotype of Native Americans," she said.

[sois]

I still agree with the idea to remove copyright ability to that name, then let's see how committed they are to "a unifying force that stands for strength, courage, pride and respect."