Given the latest news coming out about Bush and Downing Street memoes and Carl Rove and the CIA leaks it makes me wonder if maybe those conspiracy theorist are on to something.

My questions are, are the people who run this country incapable of doing things that one might call a conspiracy and if so would or could you believe in a conspiracy? Most Americans dismiss conspiracies as the delusions of creative imginations who suffer from a extreme form of paranioa, but is that the case?

[quote name='Bengal_Smoov' date='Jul 13 2005, 12:21 PM']Given the latest news coming out about Bush and Downing Street memoes and Carl Rove and the CIA leaks it makes me wonder if maybe those conspiracy theorist are on to something. 

My questions are, are the people who run this country incapable of doing things that one might call a conspiracy and if so would or could you believe in a conspiracy?  Most Americans dismiss conspiracies as the delusions of creative imginations who suffer from a extreme form of paranioa, but is that the case?
[right][post="113860"][/post][/right][/quote]
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you

Yes. Thats pretty much the case. Paranoia.

Covert things happen at higher levels all the time. It doesnt mean that the govt is out to control us, hurt us, or control the world. Nor is it necessary for avg citizens to be informed of each thing.

It is easy to work backwards and make "facts" fit your scenario. But those are not usually the true reasons the "facts" occurred in the first place. I rest just fine at night, and not out of ignorance either, I consider myself pretty aware of happenings, but dont attribute sinister alterior motives to them and get all stressed out. You asked...there's my opinion on the subject.

[quote name='Beaker' date='Jul 13 2005, 12:29 PM']Yes. Thats pretty much the case. Paranoia.

Covert things happen at higher levels all the time. It doesnt mean that the govt is out to control us, hurt us, or control the world. Nor is it necessary for avg citizens to be informed of each thing.

It is easy to work backwards and make "facts" fit your scenario. But those are not usually the true reasons the "facts" occurred in the first place. I rest just fine at night, and not out of ignorance either, I consider myself pretty aware of happenings, but dont attribute sinister alterior motives to them and get all stressed out. You asked...there's my opinion on the subject.
[right][post="113868"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Normally I stay out of the political discussions, but I will say this. The people who have a problem with covert happenings in the higher levels of government are naive to think that this is something new. On the other hand, it's just as naive to think that even though covert operations are a given, they should just be shrugged off. This topic in particular is where both sides of the fence come off as completely transparent, using the double standard - if it happened to one of "their guys" it wouldn't be an issue, but if they don't care for the party involved, it's time to open an investigation immediately. Maybe we should refer to it as "selective paranoia".

The only thing I care about is that my government's covert dealings remain covert. When things start becoming public knowledge, then I worry about how capable the hands we're in are.

[quote name='ChicagoBengal' date='Jul 13 2005, 01:45 PM']Normally I stay out of the political discussions, but I will say this.  The people who have a problem with covert happenings in the higher levels of government are naive to think that this is something new.  On the other hand, it's just as naive to think that even though covert operations are a given, they should just be shrugged off.  This topic in particular is where both sides of the fence come off as completely transparent, using the double standard - if it happened to one of "their guys" it wouldn't be an issue, but if they don't care for the party involved, it's time to open an investigation immediately.  Maybe we should refer to it as "selective paranoia".

[b]The only thing I care about is that my government's covert dealings remain covert.  When things start becoming public knowledge, then I worry about how capable the hands we're in are.[/b]
[right][post="113874"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


Agreed, the public does not have the "right to know" everything, there are reasons for keeping things secret and not just to protect someone's political hyde.

Chicago;

I'm not sure to which conspiracy theory you are referring. I do know this, we are all part of the go-bengals.com conspiracy.

People make too much of the term, itself. Conspiracies abound, they are all around us. IMO, the problem is one of understanding cause and effect, not that folks get together and cooperatively work together with a purpose of goal in mind.

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Jul 13 2005, 01:32 PM']Chicago;

I'm not sure to which conspiracy theory you are referring. I do know this, we are all part of the go-bengals.com conspiracy.

People make too much of the term, itself. Conspiracies abound, they are all around us. IMO, the problem is one of understanding cause and effect, not that folks get together and cooperatively work together with a purpose of goal in mind.
[right][post="113885"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Agreed, Homer. I'm not refering to any conspiracy in particular, in fact, I was just commenting on the original post and turning my response into a generalization - bipartisan, if you will.

[quote]The only thing I care about is that my government's covert dealings remain covert.  When things start becoming public knowledge, then I worry about how capable the hands we're in are.[/quote]

[b][color="blue"]
People called this a conspiracy theory too,,, but it was true.... never trust your government.[/color][/b]


[u]The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment[/u]

[i]The United States government did something that was wrong—deeply, profoundly, morally wrong. It was an outrage to our commitment to integrity and equality for all our citizens. . . . clearly racist. [/i]
[b]—President Clinton's apology for the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment to the eight remaining survivors, May 16, 1997[/b]


For forty years between 1932 and 1972, the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) conducted an experiment on 399 black men in the late stages of syphilis. These men, for the most part illiterate sharecroppers from one of the poorest counties in Alabama, were never told what disease they were suffering from or of its seriousness. Informed that they were being treated for “bad blood,”1 their doctors had no intention of curing them of syphilis at all. The data for the experiment was to be collected from autopsies of the men, and they were thus deliberately left to degenerate under the ravages of tertiary syphilis—which can include tumors, heart disease, paralysis, blindness, insanity, and death. “As I see it,” one of the doctors involved explained, “we have no further interest in these patients until they die.”

Using Human Beings as Laboratory Animals
The true nature of the experiment had to be kept from the subjects to ensure their cooperation. The sharecroppers' grossly disadvantaged lot in life made them easy to manipulate. Pleased at the prospect of free medical care—almost none of them had ever seen a doctor before—these unsophisticated and trusting men became the pawns in what James Jones, author of the excellent history on the subject, Bad Blood, identified as “the longest nontherapeutic experiment on human beings in medical history.”

The study was meant to discover how syphilis affected blacks as opposed to whites—the theory being that whites experienced more neurological complications from syphilis whereas blacks were more susceptible to cardiovascular damage. How this knowledge would have changed clinical treatment of syphilis is uncertain. Although the PHS touted the study as one of great scientific merit, from the outset its actual benefits were hazy. It took almost forty years before someone involved in the study took a hard and honest look at the end results, reporting that “nothing learned will prevent, find, or cure a single case of infectious syphilis or bring us closer to our basic mission of controlling venereal disease in the United States.” When the experiment was brought to the attention of the media in 1972, news anchor Harry Reasoner described it as an experiment that “used human beings as laboratory animals in a long and inefficient study of how long it takes syphilis to kill someone.”

A Heavy Price in the Name of Bad Science
By the end of the experiment, 28 of the men had died directly of syphilis, 100 were dead of related complications, 40 of their wives had been infected, and 19 of their children had been born with congenital syphilis. How had these men been induced to endure a fatal disease in the name of science? To persuade the community to support the experiment, one of the original doctors admitted it “was necessary to carry on this study under the guise of a demonstration and provide treatment.” At first, the men were prescribed the syphilis remedies of the day—bismuth, neoarsphenamine, and mercury—but in such small amounts that only 3 percent showed any improvement. These token doses of medicine were good public relations and did not interfere with the true aims of the study. Eventually, all syphilis treatment was replaced with “pink medicine”—aspirin. To ensure that the men would show up for a painful and potentially dangerous spinal tap, the PHS doctors misled them with a letter full of promotional hype: “Last Chance for Special Free Treatment.” The fact that autopsies would eventually be required was also concealed. As a doctor explained, “If the colored population becomes aware that accepting free hospital care means a post-mortem, every darky will leave Macon County…” Even the Surgeon General of the United States participated in enticing the men to remain in the experiment, sending them certificates of appreciation after 25 years in the study.

Following Doctors' Orders
It takes little imagination to ascribe racist attitudes to the white government officials who ran the experiment, but what can one make of the numerous African Americans who collaborated with them? The experiment's name comes from the Tuskegee Institute, the black university founded by Booker T. Washington. Its affiliated hospital lent the PHS its medical facilities for the study, and other predominantly black institutions as well as local black doctors also participated. A black nurse, Eunice Rivers, was a central figure in the experiment for most of its forty years. The promise of recognition by a prestigious government agency may have obscured the troubling aspects of the study for some. A Tuskegee doctor, for example, praised “the educational advantages offered our interns and nurses as well as the added standing it will give the hospital.” Nurse Rivers explained her role as one of passive obedience: “we were taught that we never diagnosed, we never prescribed; we followed the doctor's instructions!” It is clear that the men in the experiment trusted her and that she sincerely cared about their well-being, but her unquestioning submission to authority eclipsed her moral judgment. Even after the experiment was exposed to public scrutiny, she genuinely felt nothing ethical had been amiss.

One of the most chilling aspects of the experiment was how zealously the PHS kept these men from receiving treatment. When several nationwide campaigns to eradicate venereal disease came to Macon County, the men were prevented from participating. Even when penicillin was discovered in the 1940s—the first real cure for syphilis—the Tuskegee men were deliberately denied the medication. During World War II, 250 of the men registered for the draft and were consequently ordered to get treatment for syphilis, only to have the PHS exempt them. Pleased at their success, the PHS representative announced: “So far, we are keeping the known positive patients from getting treatment.” The experiment continued in spite of the Henderson Act (1943), a public health law requiring testing and treatment for venereal disease, and in spite of the World Health Organization's Declaration of Helsinki (1964), which specified that “informed consent” was needed for experiment involving human beings.

Blowing the Whistle
The story finally broke in the Washington Star on July 25, 1972, in an article by Jean Heller of the Associated Press. Her source was Peter Buxtun, a former PHS venereal disease interviewer and one of the few whistle blowers over the years. The PHS, however, remained unrepentant, claiming the men had been “volunteers” and “were always happy to see the doctors,” and an Alabama state health officer who had been involved claimed “somebody is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.”

Under the glare of publicity, the government ended their experiment, and for the first time provided the men with effective medical treatment for syphilis. Fred Gray, a lawyer who had previously defended Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King, filed a class action suit that provided a $10 million out-of-court settlement for the men and their families. Gray, however, named only whites and white organizations in the suit, portraying Tuskegee as a black and white case when it was in fact more complex than that—black doctors and institutions had been involved from beginning to end.

The PHS did not accept the media's comparison of Tuskegee with the appalling experiments performed by Nazi doctors on their Jewish victims during World War II. Yet in addition to the medical and racist parallels, the PHS offered the same morally bankrupt defense offered at the Nuremberg trials: they claimed they were just carrying out orders, mere cogs in the wheel of the PHS bureaucracy, exempt from personal responsibility.

The study's other justification—for the greater good of science—is equally spurious. Scientific protocol had been shoddy from the start. Since the men had in fact received some medication for syphilis in the beginning of the study, however inadequate, it thereby corrupted the outcome of a study of “untreated syphilis.”

In 1990, a survey found that 10 percent of African Americans believed that the U.S. government created AIDS as a plot to exterminate blacks, and another 20 percent could not rule out the possibility that this might be true. As preposterous and paranoid as this may sound, at one time the Tuskegee experiment must have seemed equally farfetched. Who could imagine the government, all the way up to the Surgeon General of the United States, deliberately allowing a group of its citizens to die from a terrible disease for the sake of an ill-conceived experiment? In light of this and many other shameful episodes in our history, African Americans' widespread mistrust of the government and white society in general should not be a surprise to anyone. —BB

Why are you asking this? Did [b]they[/b] ask you to ask us all this question? How do I know this is not an elaborate hoax, set up by [b]them[/b]. None of you all have ever really existed. It was all just a trap to see what I know. Oh my, my internet is tapped. [b]They[/b] are reading everything I type before I even hit the submit button. No, I'm not paranoid, I just see the cable van outside my door every day, and I know that that guy really does not work for Time Warner. Hell, I gotta go, [b]they're[/b] unto me.

That's a good point BJ, sometimes a conspiracy theory can be true and no one will do anything about it because the situation gets labeled a conspiracy theory. Take the Tuskeege Experiment for example, maybe if more people believed the conspiracy theory then something could have been done to stop it. Like thirty years from now some info could come out that proves the Bush admin had something to do with 9/11 and the war in Iraq could have been avioded. Not saying that the Bush administration had anything to do with 9/11, but that is a common conspiracy theory.

The problem with the conspiracy theories related to 9/11 is that the "left" theorists make their theories too far fetched. They claim that jets really did not crash into these buildings, that there were drones or missiles, etc. That is too hard of a plan to pull off. First of all, you have to get rid of the jets that are carrying passengers. Then you have to fly things into these buildings that look like jets. Then you have to put enough people around the crashes to say that they are jets that hit the buildings. And explosives in the Twin Towers. Come one. How are they going to plant that many explosives in a huge highly populated area with people constantly around. Just accept the fact that the jets did happen to bring the buildings down.

Now, when the Oklahoma bombing happened, there were many "right" conspiracy theorists. But it's easier to question a truck full of fertilizer. Did he get the truck inside the building somehow? Was there insider help? Was Timothy brainwashed by the government? What about all those important government officials that took their kids out of day care that day, etc. See, that's a little easier than hiding hundreds of passengers and the jets that carry them just to shoot missiles or unmanned drones at buildings.

If you wanna say there is a conspiracy behind 9/11, then just say that the goverment asked for some jihadists to make this attack, that they "let" the attack happen, or even that they trained the pilots, or maybe even put remotes on the jets that take over the controls and fly them into buildings. But please stop with the other nonsense, drones, my ass.

[quote name='Bengal_Smoov' date='Jul 13 2005, 09:23 PM']That's a good point BJ, sometimes a conspiracy theory can be true and no one will do anything about it because the situation gets labeled a conspiracy theory.  Take the Tuskeege Experiment for example, maybe if more people believed the conspiracy theory then something could have been done to stop it.  Like  thirty years from now some info could come out that proves the Bush admin had something to do with 9/11 and the war in Iraq could have been avioded.  Not saying that the Bush administration had anything to do with 9/11, but that is a common conspiracy theory.
[right][post="113939"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


Lets not forget the original conspiracy theory regarding 911 was that Clinton had orchestrated it


As far as bad things our Govt did, how about the LSD experiments it did on average US citizens in the 60s? I believe they choose random people and gave them massive doses of LSD to see what effects it had on them, a lot of the poeple died or went crazy. Other things included experimental brain surgeries on unsuspecting patients in the name of research, one lady who was being treated for depression thought she was seeing a regular dr but was under the care of a military scientist who removed part of her brain and wiped her memory clean, to this day she is still alive and can't remember anything before that experiment to this day.

Our Govt has many skeletons it its closet but they pale in comparison to every other Govt

[quote name='Storm' date='Jul 14 2005, 12:31 AM']one lady who was being treated for depression thought she was seeing a regular dr but was under the care of a military scientist who removed part of her brain and wiped her memory clean, to this day she is still alive and can't remember anything before that experiment [right][post="114033"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Then how does she know she had the surgery?

[quote name='Beaker' date='Jul 14 2005, 01:04 AM']Then how does she know she had the surgery?
[right][post="114249"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


She got a bill for the surgery...

[quote name='mongoloido' date='Jul 14 2005, 05:10 AM']She got a bill for the surgery...
[right][post="114253"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

LOL!...and it was from "Crazy Government Doctor"... $12,000.00 for "experimental brain removal"...and stamped "Health Insurance will not cover, you are responsible for full amount".

[quote name='Beaker' date='Jul 14 2005, 01:40 AM']LOL!...and it was from "Crazy Government Doctor"... $12,000.00 for "experimental brain removal"...and stamped "Health Insurance will not cover, you are responsible for full amount".
[right][post="114279"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


LMAO [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img]

[quote name='Bengal_Smoov' date='Jul 13 2005, 12:21 PM']Given the latest news coming out about Bush and Downing Street memoes and Carl Rove and the CIA leaks it makes me wonder if maybe those conspiracy theorist are on to something. 

My questions are, are the people who run this country incapable of doing things that one might call a conspiracy and if so would or could you believe in a conspiracy?  Most Americans dismiss conspiracies as the delusions of creative imginations who suffer from a extreme form of paranioa, but is that the case?
[right][post="113860"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

No and yes.
With power comes corruption. There are conspiracies all around us.

[quote name='Beaker' date='Jul 14 2005, 05:04 AM']Then how does she know she had the surgery?
[right][post="114249"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


Her family, can't believe you guys didn't see this? was an hour special on 20/20 or one of those shows

The whole experiment was intended to reove her memory in the hopes that she would forget she was depressed, the DR actually told the husband that after the surgery like it was no big deal

How's does this tie in? I just got it in an email today. Don't know what to make of it. Seems hard to believe a plane can disappear if it didn't go where they said it did. But...some of this evidence is interesting too.


Pentagon Crash 9/11
>
> Where Is The Airplane...That Crashed into Pentagon...?
>Don't miss this. Really...where are the airplane parts?
>Go on this website and watch this film...do it quickly as it has been
>pulled off several websites already - and YOU'LL SEE WHY!
>
>
>
> <http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php#Main>
>http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php#Main
>
>

[quote name='BengalSIS' date='Jul 14 2005, 09:55 AM']How's does this tie in?  I just got it in an email today.  Don't know what to make of it.  Seems hard to believe a plane can disappear if it didn't go where they said it did.  But...some of this evidence is interesting too.
Pentagon  Crash 9/11
>
>  Where Is The Airplane...That  Crashed into Pentagon...?
>Don't miss this. Really...where are the  airplane parts?
>Go on this website and watch this film...do it quickly  as it has been
>pulled off several websites already - and YOU'LL SEE WHY!
>
>
>
>  <http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php#Main>
>http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php#Main
>
>
[right][post="114335"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/14.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/14.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/14.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/14.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/14.gif[/img]

I refuse to click on that link based on priciple that its complete bullshit (sorry sis), my father was there it was a plane.

That idea gets me going like Pat Roberson gets BJ going. If you believe this shit then you need to take a trip up here and ask anyone who was there.

Obviously sis didn't read my post. If there is a government conspiracy, why would they try to hide the plane and all of its passengers. Wouldn't it just be easier to fly it into the Pentagon, then blame it on terrorists. Think, people, please.

[url="http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php#Main"]http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryho...ntagon.php#Main[/url]

[i][b]BengalSis

I think this flash raises legitimate Questions... that if they are just bullshit, the govt should address them, release the tapes and be over with it.


If you think back to the small size of the whole and how low the plane would have had to have been it does seem unordinary for a plane that large to hit the pentagon, unless it was coming straight down from above which it didn't.


now as for what happened to the plane or people in this scenario who knows???[/b][/i]

<cough> bullshit <cough>

i swear, if america is on one side, and an islamic terrorist is on the other side, there is no surprise which side bj ends up on... every fucking time...

[quote]i swear, if [u]america[/u] is on one side, and an [u]terrorist[/u] is on the other side, there is no surprise which side bj ends up on... every fucking time...[/quote]

[i][b]they are on different sides ???[/b][/i]

i give up...