Guest BlackJesus Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 [u]Investigators recommended disciplining Gitmo commander Officials detail abuse of high-profile prisoner Wednesday, July 13, 2005 CNN[/u] WASHINGTON (AP) -- Military investigators said they proposed disciplining the prison commander at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, because of abusive and degrading treatment of a suspected terrorist that included forcing him to wear a bra, dance with another man and behave like a dog. They said Wednesday they recommended that Army Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller be reprimanded for failing to oversee his interrogation of the prisoner, who was suspected of involvement in the terror attacks of September 11, 2001. Gen. Bantz J. Craddock, commander of U.S. Southern Command, said he overruled their recommendation and will instead refer the matter to the Army's inspector general. Craddock concluded that Miller did not violate any U.S. laws or policies, according to officials familiar with the report. Investigators described their findings before the Senate Armed Services Committee Wednesday. They were looking into allegations by FBI agents who say they witnessed abusive interrogation techniques at the Guantanamo prison for terrorist suspects. The chief investigator, Air Force Lt. Gen. Randall M. Schmidt, described the interrogation techniques used on Mohamed al-Qahtani, a Saudi who was captured in December 2001 along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. It was learned later that he had tried to enter the United States in August 2001 but was turned away by an immigration agent at the Orlando, Florida, airport. Mohamed Atta, ringleader of the September 11 hijackers, was in the airport at the same time, officials have said. Schmidt said that to get him to talk, [b]interrogators told him his mother and sisters were whores, forced him to wear a bra, forced him to wear a thong on his head, told him he was homosexual and said that other prisoners knew it. They also forced him to dance with a male interrogator, Schmidt added, and subjected him to strip searches with no security value, threatened him with dogs, forced him to stand naked in front of women and forced him onto a leash, to act like a dog.[/b] Still, he said, "No torture occurred." Al-Qahtani was provided food, water and medical care, he said. Together these techniques are degrading and abusive, he said. FBI agents raised their concerns about the techniques to Miller, and he should have monitored them, but he apparently took no action, Schmidt said. "It is clear from the report that detainee mistreatment was not simply the product of a few rogue military police in a night shift," said Carl Levin of Michigan, the top Democrat on the committee. Bush administration officials have sought to portray the excesses at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq as just that. Armed Services Chairman John Warner, R-Virginia, said investigators found only three instances, out of thousands of interrogations, where military personnel violated Army policy. He did not immediately describe those incidents. Investigators determined that interrogators violated the Geneva Conventions and Army regulations three times. It was unclear from the aide's description what those instances were. The military investigation was conducted by Schmidt and Army Brig. Gen. John T. Furlow after the FBI agents' reports of abuse at Guantanamo surfaced last year. Craddock and the two investigators testified about their findings at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing Wednesday. Previous investigations of prisoner abuse in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo have hurt U.S. standing worldwide. No officer of Miller's rank or higher has been officially admonished in connection with any of the abuse scandals. Former Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski, who was in charge of Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, is the highest-ranking officer to face punishment, despite calls from human rights groups to hold more senior leaders accountable. "I am deeply concerned about the failure -- indeed, outright refusal -- of our military and civilian leaders to hold higher ups accountable for the repeated and reports of abuse and torture of the prisoners at Guantanamo," said Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Massachusetts. Miller, a subject of criticism by human rights groups, took command of the prison camp at Guantanamo in late 2002 with a mandate to get more and better information from prisoners. He later went to Iraq to oversee detainee operations there. He is now stationed at the Pentagon in a position unrelated to prisoners. According to investigators: [b]A female interrogator in one case smeared what she described as menstrual blood -- it was fake -- on a prisoner,[/b] but they recommended no further action on the allegation because it happened some time ago. The woman was disciplined, investigators said. [b]A Navy officer threatened one high-value prisoner by saying he would go after his family. [/b]This was in violation of U.S. military law, the investigation found. Military interrogators impersonated FBI and State Department agents. This practice was stopped after the FBI complained. Interrogators improperly used duct tape on a detainee. [b]An FBI agent said a prisoner was bound on the head with duct tape, his mouth covered, because he was chanting verses from the Quran[/b], the Muslim holy book. [b]Interrogators used cold, heat, loud music and sleep deprivation on prisoners to break their will to resist interrogation. [/b]These techniques were approved at certain times at Guantanamo. [b]Chaining a detainee to the floor in a fetal position was not authorized[/b]; however, the investigation could not confirm an FBI agent's allegation that detainees were left in this position for long periods. The report said the military should review how it determines the legal status of prisoners at Guantanamo, and decide what forms of treatment and interrogation techniques will be allowed. Guantanamo holds 520 prisoners, while more than 230 others have been released or transferred to the custody of their home governments. Most were captured during the U.S. war in Afghanistan after the September 11, 2001, attacks; [b]only a few have been charged with any crime.[/b] There have also been accusations that American personnel at Guantanamo mishandled the Quran. A separate Pentagon investigation found five such instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 I have a question. Is that chic in the pictures in your first post available? She appears to be pretty freaky. It would be a big change from my prude wife... I'm kidding, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 [i][b]steggy I hope you mean the blonde and not the man midget girl[/b][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 [quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jul 14 2005, 03:55 PM'][i][b]steggy I hope you mean the blonde and not the man midget girl[/b][/i] [right][post="114541"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] Yeah, the one towards the beginning, not the one at the end. I'm just thinking, if she is that open minded... The possibilities are endless. But, hey, now that I think about it, the midget is even freakier. It's all the same when the lights are out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nati Ice Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 i have no problem with this... sexual humiliation is nothing compared to what the terrorists do with an american soldier, we need a way to obtain information from these detainees and asking them politely while making sure not to hurt their feelings in the process would be all fine and dandy with me as long as it worked, the problem is that it doesn't, you cannot honestly expect us not to use any type of special tactics in order to obtain information from TERRORISTS, can you? i mean you do realize that these are the same people killing innocent families by directly targeting them by their homicide bombings, dont you? how would/ should we obtain information in the future from our detainees if sexual humiliation, and physical deprivation are no longer plausible tactics... would you expect the war to stop or expect these terrorists to just "give up" all of their information? honestly, that last article posted wasnt even that bad... now dont get me wrong the people who broke these laws in the process deserve to be punished and from what that article states they have been or are going to be, but as for the sexual humiliation and physical deprivation, i see nothing wrong with it, it is not physically harmful and basically just fucks with their minds, a type of tactic i have seen nothing about in the geneva convention... we have every right to do this and should continue to do this, because if we dont more people die, its that simple from a humanitarian point of view i understand your concern and for the most part i feel the same way, but after putting things into perspective i no longer have the desire to be nice to one terrorist so that i dont piss off the muslims who already hate us, id much rather do what is necessary to obtain this information, oh and if i were running our govt i would allow "out-sourcing" of our interrogation jobs to israel, but thats just my .02$ and i know, i know, it IS wrong on so many levels, but... meh, i dont really care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 thats so wrong nati... yet so right... good post... of coarse, it won't change minds b/c minds are made up... best way i've heard this described: "from a humanitarian point of view i understand your concern and for the most part i feel the same way, but after putting things into perspective i no longer have the desire to be nice to one terrorist so that i dont piss off the muslims who already hate us, id much rather do what is necessary to obtain this information" ahhhh, a voice of reason... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 [quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jul 14 2005, 02:13 AM'][i][b]this behavior creates more people that then want to kill us.... can you not see that ? it is possible to detain someone and not degrade them, by having menstrating women rub on them, sticking things in their ass, stacking them in Homo sex, etc etc [/b][/i] [right][post="114299"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] No, they would want to kill us anyway. So, we can't torture them. We can't humiliate them. How do you suggest we get information from them to save lives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Carson Show Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 [quote name='Jason' date='Jul 14 2005, 09:51 PM']No, they would want to kill us anyway. So, we can't torture them. We can't humiliate them. How do you suggest we get information from them to save lives? [right][post="114685"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] im all for doing WHATEVER it takes to get the info may it be clamping their nuts hooking their nipples to a battery having a dog bark in the face make a naked cheerleader pyramid I am an american citizen that treasures my life and freedom and those mother fuckers want to take it away and kill us fuck them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BengalsOwn Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 [quote name='steggyD' date='Jul 14 2005, 02:53 PM']I have a question. Is that chic in the pictures in your first post available? She appears to be pretty freaky. It would be a big change from my prude wife... I'm kidding, I think. [right][post="114538"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] Beautiful [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [quote]interrogators told him his mother and sisters were whores, forced him to wear a bra, forced him to wear a thong on his head, told him he was homosexual and said that other prisoners knew it. They also forced him to dance with a male interrogator, Schmidt added, and subjected him to strip searches with no security value, threatened him with dogs, forced him to stand naked in front of women and forced him onto a leash, to act like a dog.[/quote] That's what I like to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Carson Show Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 BJ u are critizing(sp) the people that allow YOU to watch the bengals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Ahhhhh, what an interesting post. I am wasted. Yet I say to you: How important is political correctness to you? Because if it isn't, then reinvigorate yourselves for a war like no other has seen.....a war that will never end.....EVER.......against terror.... But we shouldn't stop fighting this war. We HAVE to fight it... Should we then simply stop fighting crime because it will always be there to fight? No, I say. The same logic applies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 [quote name='The Carson Show' date='Jul 15 2005, 02:58 AM']im all for doing WHATEVER it takes to get the info may it be clamping their nuts hooking their nipples to a battery having a dog bark in the face make a naked cheerleader pyramid I am an american citizen that treasures my life and freedom and those mother fuckers want to take it away and kill us fuck them [right][post="114802"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] I want to know what BJ and Ben and jza8675309 find acceptable as means of interrogation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nati Ice Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 tickling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 [quote]want to know what BJ finds acceptable as means of interrogation[/quote] [b]Many methods are acceptable to me and do not degrade the individual for which you will be releasing back into the general population. I am probably in violation of Intl law with some of them, but I believe that they do not degrade the individual. [u]As for Prison Conditions[/u] - Isolation (keep him in a cell by himself with no contact from others) - His 3 meals each day can be unpleasent ... (I would obey by caloric requirements of what an individual needs, but you can do this by putting all the calories into a hard bread mixture and then serving it as a loaf) = Prisons now do this as punishment and it is very effective because guys hate eating it - No cigarettes or access to anything that he may have been addicted to ... only water, no caffeinne - No materials to pass the time. I would not provide any books, paper, writing materials etc. (not even a koran, bible, anything.) He sits in the cell by himself with him, a small pillow, a sleeping mat, and a toilet bowl thats it) - Only an hour exercise everyday to walk around outside of the cell - Only 1 shower a week As for Interrogation - You use an incentive based program where ok here is your basic allotment. If you would like - more time outside - better meals - a koran to read, a bible - a more comfortable pillow mat - more showers per week etc etc etc you tell us certain things we would like to know. the more he tells, the more he gets. You also let him see that his other peers around have more amentities and tell him that they are already selling out and living better, so he then will feel that he is staying silent for no reason. I don't believe that wooping some dudes ass is very effective in getting info, they just tell you whatever they think you want to hear so you will stop beating them. With this incentive program you get the info, and IF IT checks out... then they get the added benefits... thus they can't just lie. [/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 i'm not naive to think that other tactics aren't used, but i've heard many military spokesman say that the incentive program is by far, the most successful... i would say that we use this almost all the time... all i want, is a good balance so i don't have to hear about the abuses everyday, but we are still getting the job done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 [img]http://zmag.org/cartoons/toons/812.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 I love how people refer to these detainees as terrorists... It's complete and utter ignorance... Most of the people in Gitmo are SUSPECTED of POSSIBLY being terrorists... But the people held at Abu-Guraib were NOT terrorists.. They are SUSPECTED insurgents, and common criminals.... But it's ok to torture someone who is SUSPECTED of breaking a law, because they MIGHT know something about a terrorist, or insurgent.. Hell, think of the progress against crime we could make if we just rounded up everyone in OTR, detained and humiliated them and thier families until they spilled the beans about some law breaker they might know. And then when they tell you what you want to hear to get you to stop, you can feel all peachy about it.. After all, you saved lives right?? Sure you did. And yes, Gitmo does violate the geneva convention. Our government just SAYS that is doesn't because we claim these people are not "prisoners of war". Instead we INVENTED a brand new label, "Unlawful Combatant", so that we could claim legal immunity for not abiding by the geneva conventions rules for treatment for POW's. Can anyone tell me what the fuck an "Unlawful Combatant" is?? As far as I am concerned that is a complete crock of shit... Never before in history has a nation held the citizens of another under this premise... We invented it, and it is crap. As far as I am concerned they are either criminals, or they are prisoners of war. Either way, there are laws governing the treatment of either of these classifications, and we follow neither. Gitmo is a disgrace, and as an American, I am ashamed that my government and some fellow citizens endorse it. It is a truly a dark and frightening time when "The Shining City on the Hill", America, the champion of freedom and human rights has turned to this disgraceful behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 laws and rules are made for a reason... i guess we should follow MOST of the geneva convention, and leave out the most important part : [i]Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, [b]provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[/b] [b]a[/b] That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; [b]b[/b] That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; [b]c[/b] That of carrying arms openly; [b]d[/b] That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. [/i] [b]a[/b] so lets see, i guess we can say that they do fulfil (a) but that is a far fetch... bin laden is the supposed leader of the [b]TERRORISTS[/b] (thats what they fucking are...) but like i said, this a far fetch [b]b[/b] carrying a flag or sign [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] definately not doing that, when they jump in a truck w/ a bomb in it, and drive into a crowd of children... [b]c[/b] they aren't carrying arms openly... they are strapping on bombs and blowing up buses and subway... they are stealing planes and driving them into buildings... [b]d[/b] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] need i explain this one... i can't find "cutting off heads" in the geneva convention, but maybe it is legal personally, i hate this arguement b/c america is better than this... but, rules are made for a reason... i want to say the popular saying "why should we follow if they don't" but i goes much further than that... these rules were made for a reason, which is to try to thwart people from torchering each others pow's... these terrorists are not doing anything close to following the rules, yet we have to bend over backwards to make sure that the prisoner who just threw fices on our face, has a clean and new koran... does this sound right to you? the truth is, we need to make more rules for the war we are fighting, b/c they don't fall anywhere close to the geneva convention... about these guys not being terrorists, i guess when a soldier has someone shooting at them, we should just let them go what the hell are you thinking... even if their not terrorists, you DO SAVE LIVES BY TAKING THEM INTO PRISON... how the hell are we not? a terrorists uses fear to get his political ways... what about these fucks, are not terrorists? the prisoners/suspected TERRORISTS, go through a military tribunal and many of them are sent back to their home countries... even though we see american civilians getting their head cut off, we still follow hold back and follow the rules... we're fighting a war, where they want to kill you and anyone else that lives in america... WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 [quote name='bengalrick' date='Jul 16 2005, 11:59 AM']laws and rules are made for a reason... i guess we should follow MOST of the geneva convention, and leave out the most important part : [i]Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, [b]provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[/b] [b]a[/b] That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; [b]b[/b] That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; [b]c[/b] That of carrying arms openly; [b]d[/b] That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. [/i] [b]a[/b] so lets see, i guess we can say that they do fulfil (a) but that is a far fetch... bin laden is the supposed leader of the [b]TERRORISTS[/b] (thats what they fucking are...) but like i said, this a far fetch [b]b[/b] carrying a flag or sign [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]  definately not doing that, when they jump in a truck w/ a bomb in it, and drive into a crowd of children... [b]c[/b] they aren't carrying arms openly... they are strapping on bombs and blowing up buses and subway... they are stealing planes and driving them into buildings... [b]d[/b] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]  [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] need i explain this one... i can't find "cutting off heads" in the geneva convention, but maybe it is legal personally, i hate this arguement b/c america is better than this... but, rules are made for a reason... i want to say the popular saying "why should we follow if they don't" but i goes much further than that... these rules were made for a reason, which is to try to thwart people from torchering each others pow's... these terrorists are not doing anything close to following the rules, yet we have to bend over backwards to make sure that the prisoner who just threw fices on our face, has a clean and new koran... does this sound right to you? the truth is, we need to make more rules for the war we are fighting, b/c they don't fall anywhere close to the geneva convention... about these guys not being terrorists, i guess when a soldier has someone shooting at them, we should just let them go what the hell are you thinking... even if their not terrorists, you DO SAVE LIVES BY TAKING THEM INTO PRISON... how the hell are we not? a terrorists uses fear to get his political ways... what about these fucks, are not terrorists? the prisoners/suspected TERRORISTS, go through a military tribunal and many of them are sent back to their home countries... even though we see american civilians getting their head cut off, we still follow hold back and follow the rules... we're fighting a war, where they want to kill you and anyone else that lives in america... WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!! [right][post="115254"][/post][/right][/quote] I think you need to "wake the fuck up".... I don't believe you [b]are[/b] ignorant enough to believe that this war is the first time an insurgence (YES an insurgence is a valid military movement) has used gorilla tactics.... This is not a new occurrence. Why don't you explain how abiding by the Geneva Convention rules would make us less safe... Nowhere does it state that you have to release POW's. You simply have to treat them humanely. I want you to rationally explain the reason behind denying the Red Cross access to Gitmo.. Are they going to help arrange a "Jailbreak"? Pass little noted from Bin Laden to them? Advertise security flaws to terrorist groups to help "free their brethren"? Like I said... Wake the fuck up. Sure Terrorists are immoral, and don't abide by the GC... THEY ARE EVIL FUCKHEADS!! Since when was it ok to do the wrong thing just because someone else does?? This makes no sense and is a morally bankrupt argument. I guess a fitting punishment for a child molester is to molest their children? This is a fucking retarded argument and it pisses me off. And a lot of these people who support this crap also claim to be Christian... Show me where in the bible it says "Do unto others as they do unto you" Fucking hypocrites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldschooler Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 [quote name='Lucid' date='Jul 16 2005, 10:23 AM']I think you need to "wake the fuck up".... I don't believe you are ignorant enough to believe that this war is the first time an insurgence (YES an insurgence is a valid military movement) has used gorilla tactics.... This is not a new occurrence. Why don't you explain how abiding by the Geneva Convention rules would make us less safe... Nowhere does it state that you have to release POW's. You simply have to treat them humanely. I want you to rationally explain the reason behind denying the Red Cross access to Gitmo.. Are they going to help arrange a "Jailbreak"? Pass little noted from Bin Laden to them? Advertise security flaws to terrorist groups to help "free their brethren"? Like I said... Wake the fuck up. Sure Terrorists are immoral, and don't abide by the GC... THEY ARE EVIL FUCKHEADS YOU DIPSHIT!! Since when was it ok to do the wrong thing just because someone else does?? This makes no sense and is a morally bankrupt argument. I guess a fitting punishment for a child molester is to molest their children? This is a fucking retarded argument and it pisses me off. And a lot of these people who support this crap also claim to be Christian... Show me where in the bible it says "Do unto others as they do unto you" Fucking hypocrites [right][post="115256"][/post][/right][/quote] Wow. I usually agree with you when it comes to the Bengals. But saying we treat the insurgents/terrorist like they treat us is just asinine. They are treated better than most people in our prison system. They are treated better than they treat their OWN people. There have been a couple of bad episodes...but those people have been punished. So yeah...you ===> [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//28.gif[/img] Oh ...and enough with the name calling. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 [quote name='oldschooler' date='Jul 16 2005, 04:16 PM']Wow. I usually agree with you when it comes to the Bengals. But saying we treat the insurgents/terrorist like they treat us is just asinine. They are treated better than most people in our prison system. They are treated better than they treat their OWN people. There have been a couple of bad episodes...but those people have been punished. So yeah...you ===> [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//28.gif[/img] Oh ...and enough with the name calling. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img] [right][post="115300"][/post][/right][/quote] I ensued with the name calling because of all the eye rolling and asinine sarcasm.. Making ridiculous remarks as if that were what I think.. I am always open to a rational debate, but when you patronize me, roll your eyes, and tell me to "wake the fuck up" then I think the debate digresses.. If you want vicor.. I can ooze like anyone else. As far as treatment of the prisoners.. How do you know how they are treated exactly? Did you tour the prisons? And if Gitmo is so humane, why do they deny the Red Cross access? And I never said we treated the terrorists like they treat us.. I was referring to the justification of poor treatment because of what others have done to us. Maybe the abuses were isolated. The evidence right now shows that is probably not the case. But even so, say it was wrong and isolated. Don't say "Well they cut off peoples heads!!" Like that justifies it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 [quote name='Lucid' date='Jul 16 2005, 02:27 PM'][b]Maybe the abuses were isolated. The evidence right now shows that is probably not the case.[/b] [right][post="115305"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] I have seen nothing to support that the reported cases of abuse weren't isolated. There are just as many reported cases of abuse that turn out to be self-inflicted to paint us in a bad light. Who knows? Like you say, none of us has been there or seen what really goes on...but I am against overt torture and I am uneasy as to the true justifications for some of these imprisonments.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 [quote name='Bunghole' date='Jul 16 2005, 04:39 PM']I have seen nothing to support that the reported cases of abuse weren't isolated. There are just as many reported cases of abuse that turn out to be self-inflicted to paint us in a bad light. Who knows? Like you say, none of us has been there or seen what really goes on...but I am against overt torture and I am uneasy as to the true justifications for some of these imprisonments.... [right][post="115308"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] If by abuses you mean the SEVERE actions that took place at Abu-Guraib then you are right.. I haven't seen evidence of widespread abuses of that nature (although there have been several aligations of severe abue at facilities other than there). There does seem to be fairly widespread reports of less severe human right abuses which seem to be a systemic problem. The reason I love America so much is because we ARE better than this. Americans are good people who are willing to take the high road of morality even if it means sacrifice. It saddens me to see us betraying ourselves by letting anger and fear erode those values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 [quote name='Lucid' date='Jul 16 2005, 02:49 PM']If by abuses you mean the SEVERE actions that took place at Abu-Guraib then you are right.. I haven't seen evidence of widespread abuses of that nature (although there have been several aligations of severe abue at facilities other than there). There does seem to be fairly widespread reports of less severe human right abuses which seem to be a systemic problem. [b]The reason I love America so much is because we ARE better than this. Americans are good people who are willing to take the high road of morality even if it means sacrifice. It saddens me to see us betraying ourselves by letting anger and fear erode those values.[/b] [right][post="115316"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] I agree with this...and I'll add that I have no moral qualms whatsoever about killing those that try to kill us here at home, our military abroad, etc...but upon capture, it's supposed to be a "time out fellas" situation. There really isn't a need to beat the captured and defeated, or humiliate them, or whatever. And I am callous enough that the reason I don't want to see this happen primarily is because I don't want us to isolate ourselves as a country from our allies in this "war" on terror any further than we already have... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 [i][b]Lucid.... calm down... (now more of that "thinking" stuff) they are going to think that me and Jza recruited you for our Jihad [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/3.gif[/img] [/b][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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