HairOnFire Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 The bully is wrong, but the victim is responsible for figuring out a way to stop that shit. Isn't that exactly what happened? Martin was placed in a position where he couldn't turn to the Dolphin front office or the coaching staff because he knew they supported, sanctioned, and condoned Incognito's actions. And because he had no protection from the very people tasked with providing a safe workplace Martin was forced to choose how to respond on his own. And he did just that, first by leaving the team, then by leaking the texts and e-mails that explained why he left. The Dolphins great mistake in this mess is assuming they had so much control over Martin that he couldn't respond in any other way than they expected. They expected him to react to threats of violence with acts of violence that would toughen him up, and failing that they expected Martin to honor some unwritten player code that dictates that everything be handled internally. But there's the rub because Martin had tried to deal with the bullying internally. Point blank, a bully can force a fight but he doesn't have control over what type of fight takes place. Further, the Dolphins embrace of outdated hazing practices are built on outdated beliefs that unwritten player rules somehow trump actual written law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 It looks like at least one player shares my view on this. The first thing I thought before Incognito came into play was what a pussy Martin is. Now that I know more, i'm thinking that Incognito is a dick, but still what a big pussy Martin is. He's a very large grown man acting like a big fucking baby. Is anybody going to want this guy if he plays again? All of this nanny state bully control can be helpful to an extent, but the bully-ee needs to be tought how to deal with it. There's not always going to be a principal, a teacher, an organization to report the bully to. It's tricky that when a person fights back, he's usually the one that gets in trouble for retaliating. If somebody pulls an asshole move, cuts you off on the road, does something uinconsiderate, the person that responds is the asshole, he needs to lighten up. But that shouldn't stop you from defending yourself. The person being bullied isn't always going to have somebody help them when they are bullied ranging from subtle bullying where somebody goes behind your back to fuck you over to somebody physically getting in your face. The bully is wrong, but the victim is responsible for figuring out a way to stop that shit. Rolle is spot on here IMHO: http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/9931466/antrel-rolle-new-york-giants-says-jonathan-martin-stood-in-miami-dolphins-harassment-case He dealt with it the best way possible. He got himself out of what was an abusive situation. Punching someone or attacking them, for their horrible behavior is not how to handle the situation. Harassment and assault are both illegal. It's not defending yourself in that scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 Seems to me the options were to beat Incognito with a baseball bat or walk away. Dude was being a relentless punk, the rest of the position group had his back, and the coaching staff was orchestrating the whole thing. If no one would blame Martin for beating Incognito into a bloody pulp, I think it's weird that people would blame him for walking away. This is exactly it. He was embedded in a culture that was against him and he did the ADULT thing and walked away and got himself out of it. He should be applauded for each step. Who was he going to turn to for support? The coaches that led to it happening? Isn't that exactly what happened? Martin was placed in a position where he couldn't turn to the Dolphin front office or the coaching staff because he knew they supported, sanctioned, and condoned Incognito's actions. And because he had no protection from the very people tasked with providing a safe workplace Martin was forced to choose how to respond on his own. And he did just that, first by leaving the team, then by leaking the texts and e-mails that explained why he left. The Dolphins great mistake in this mess is assuming they had so much control over Martin that he couldn't respond in any other way than they expected. They expected him to react to threats of violence with acts of violence that would toughen him up, and failing that they expected Martin to honor some unwritten player code that dictates that everything be handled internally. But there's the rub because Martin had tried to deal with the bullying internally. Point blank, a bully can force a fight but he doesn't have control over what type of fight takes place. Further, the Dolphins embrace of outdated hazing practices are built on outdated beliefs that unwritten player rules somehow trump actual written law. You are winning this thread, you and Mongo...nailed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 Isn't that exactly what happened? Martin was placed in a position where he couldn't turn to the Dolphin front office or the coaching staff because he knew they supported, sanctioned, and condoned Incognito's actions. And because he had no protection from the very people tasked with providing a safe workplace Martin was forced to choose how to respond on his own. And he did just that, first by leaving the team, then by leaking the texts and e-mails that explained why he left. The Dolphins great mistake in this mess is assuming they had so much control over Martin that he couldn't respond in any other way than they expected. They expected him to react to threats of violence with acts of violence that would toughen him up, and failing that they expected Martin to honor some unwritten player code that dictates that everything be handled internally. But there's the rub because Martin had tried to deal with the bullying internally. Point blank, a bully can force a fight but he doesn't have control over what type of fight takes place. Further, the Dolphins embrace of outdated hazing practices are built on outdated beliefs that unwritten player rules somehow trump actual written law. We don't always see eye to eye, but you knocked this shit out of the park! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalBacker Posted November 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 Just keeps getting stranger. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/warren-sapp-says-richie-incognito-called-him-n-181618860--nfl.html?vp=1 Well, I've spoken to multiple people today about this and the explanation from all of them is that in the Dolphins locker room, Richie Incognito was considered a black guy. He was accepted by the black players. He was an honorary black man. And Jonathan Martin, who is bi-racial, was not. Indeed, Martin was considered less black than Incognito. "Richie is honarary," one player who left the Dolphins this offseason told me today. "I don't expect you to understand because you're not black. But being a black guy, being a brother is more than just about skin color. It's about how you carry yourself. How you play. Where you come from. What you've experienced. A lot of things." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The PatternMaster Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 Just keeps getting stranger. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/warren-sapp-says-richie-incognito-called-him-n-181618860--nfl.html?vp=1 As a black person this comment by these players show me how stupid they are, being black isn't about being an aggressive asshole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 Just keeps getting stranger. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/warren-sapp-says-richie-incognito-called-him-n-181618860--nfl.html?vp=1 As a black person this comment by these players show me how stupid they are, being black isn't about being an aggressive asshole. I was just about to write that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 Just keeps getting stranger and stranger.... Just read a blurb about Incognito swiping then rookie Ryan Tannehill's credit card last season. Bought himself a jet ski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 Seems to me the options were to beat Incognito with a baseball bat or walk away. Dude was being a relentless punk, the rest of the position group had his back, and the coaching staff was orchestrating the whole thing. If no one would blame Martin for beating Incognito into a bloody pulp, I think it's weird that people would blame him for walking away. No man, you go to your local hunting supply store, buy the fox urine, get some latex gloves and pour that shit in the cowl of Richie's pimped out ride. Key to this is you NEVER tell anyone you did it. NEVER. Oh, and unscrewing the air valves on said douchebag's tires is another thing you can do. No permanent damage but boy does it piss them off, especially when they try to fill the tires back up with air.. Sometimes that doesn't work so the next step is the fox urine. There is no third step. That shit don't go away. See, every school needs that one person who doesn't get picked on, gets along with everyone but is a closet vigilante that takes care of stupid fucks like what Richie most likely was. School protects the rich and super athletes so if they need to get bitch slapped you need someone well versed in Black Ops. I read all this in a book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 No man, you go to your local hunting supply store, buy the fox urine, get some latex gloves and pour that shit in the cowl of Richie's pimped out ride. Key to this is you NEVER tell anyone you did it. NEVER. Oh, and unscrewing the air valves on said douchebag's tires is another thing you can do. No permanent damage but boy does it piss them off, especially when they try to fill the tires back up with air.. Sometimes that doesn't work so the next step is the fox urine. There is no third step. That shit don't go away. See, every school needs that one person who doesn't get picked on, gets along with everyone but is a closet vigilante that takes care of stupid fucks like what Richie most likely was. School protects the rich and super athletes so if they need to get bitch slapped you need someone well versed in Black Ops. I read all this in a book. :lmao: :lmao: :good3: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 I listened to a lot of radio today with both Mike Golic and Craig Krenzel saying that it was essentially part of Martin's fault for not being tough enough for the NFL. What an absurd statement but it speaks to how crazy these people start thinking just by being around similar minded people all the time. Creating a climate where you think people get tougher by being abused is crazy. Creating a climate where it's wrong to be the nice guy is also crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 I listened to a lot of radio today with both Mike Golic and Craig Krenzel saying that it was essentially part of Martin's fault for not being tough enough for the NFL. What an absurd statement but it speaks to how crazy these people start thinking just by being around similar minded people all the time. Creating a climate where you think people get tougher by being abused is crazy. Creating a climate where it's wrong to be the nice guy is also crazy. This is essentially what I was trying to say in the post on page 2 where I got negative repped for it. I wasn't advocating any of Incognito's actions, nor the Dolphins organization for supporting it or whatever. I was merely pointing out how the perceptions were and are playing out. There are many, many people (including current and former players)that think that Martin was part of the problem. I don't think I worded it well in my last post, but Martin isn't to blame here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalsOwn Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Anyone who thought the voice mail from Incognito left on the other dude's phone was anything other than joking and giving a teammate shit is a moron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hint of Snow Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Taking more strange turns this morning. Chris Carter on MIke & Mike as well as a teamate laying out a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooky Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Just keeps getting stranger. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/warren-sapp-says-richie-incognito-called-him-n-181618860--nfl.html?vp=1 What's so strange about black players not thinking Incognito is a racist? He used that word and now he's a racist regardless of what black players that actually know him think? That sounds pretty close-minded to me. He said the word, so he's a racist and people get furious if anybody suggests otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooky Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Isn't that exactly what happened? Martin was placed in a position where he couldn't turn to the Dolphin front office or the coaching staff because he knew they supported, sanctioned, and condoned Incognito's actions. And because he had no protection from the very people tasked with providing a safe workplace Martin was forced to choose how to respond on his own. And he did just that, first by leaving the team, then by leaking the texts and e-mails that explained why he left. I didn't see any articles saying that the whole organization supported Incognito's actions. How do you know that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongo Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Taking more strange turns this morning. Chris Carter on MIke & Mike as well as a teamate laying out a different story. So what's the other story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|RayDoggBengal| Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Other fin players comments must be taken with a grain of salt. The work for the same organization that brought in the troubled player knowing he was a problem. Speaking against him would be speaking against the organization and may put their job on the line. Also anyone of them who admits they knew what was going on was wrong may also be liable unless they say they reported it to the organization and the organization didn't take any action.I don't believe I would have done the same thing, but Martin did the right thing by removing himself from the organization. Me I would have caught him in the weight room and took a weight bar to his knee but that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooky Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Other fin players comments must be taken with a grain of salt. The work for the same organization that brought in the troubled player knowing he was a problem. Speaking against him would be speaking against the organization and may put their job on the line. Also anyone of them who admits they knew what was going on was wrong may also be liable unless they say they reported it to the organization and the organization didn't take any action. I don't believe I would have done the same thing, but Martin did the right thing by removing himself from the organization. Me I would have caught him in the weight room and took a weight bar to his knee but that's just me. That's what I was thinking at first, but then I was wondering if they didn't want to make waves, why they didn't just plead the 5th. or dance around the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalBacker Posted November 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 What's so strange about black players not thinking Incognito is a racist? He used that word and now he's a racist regardless of what black players that actually know him think? That sounds pretty close-minded to me. He said the word, so he's a racist and people get furious if anybody suggests otherwise. Not sure what you're talking about. This is what I quoted from the article. Well, I've spoken to multiple people today about this and the explanation from all of them is that in the Dolphins locker room, Richie Incognito was considered a black guy. He was accepted by the black players. He was an honorary black man. And Jonathan Martin, who is bi-racial, was not. Indeed, Martin was considered less black than Incognito. "Richie is honarary," one player who left the Dolphins this offseason told me today. "I don't expect you to understand because you're not black. But being a black guy, being a brother is more than just about skin color. It's about how you carry yourself. How you play. Where you come from. What you've experienced. A lot of things." I certainly didn't say he was racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooky Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Not sure what you're talking about. This is what I quoted from the article. I certainly didn't say he was racist. I wasn't directing that at you. I was referring to the author of the article. He seemed to be implying that it was strange and maybe ridiculous that the players would defend Incognito and not think he's racist since that is status quo for somebody that said what he was reported as saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalBacker Posted November 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 I wasn't directing that at you. I was referring to the author of the article. He seemed to be implying that it was strange and maybe ridiculous that the players would defend Incognito and not think he's racist since that is status quo for somebody that said what he was reported as saying. Gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 I didn't see any articles saying that the whole organization supported Incognito's actions. How do you know that? I didn't know it. Rather, I used a few known facts gleaned from dozens of articles to form a personal opinion about why Martin was being bullied. For me all of the known facts, when coupled with a few things that still don't add up, pointed squarely at the Dolphins coaching staff and GM as being the true source behind of the bullying. Truth be told, while I'm happy my opinion turned out to be pretty darn accurate I'm going to resist the opoortunity to say I told ya' so again because...(wait for it)....the story continues to shift and suprise me in numerous ways, including the almost bizarre support Dolphin players have shown Incognito. Simply put, quietly going along with things is one thing. Openly supporting them is another, and I didn't see it coming. But maybe the support being show to Incognito isn't as suprising at it first seems as much of it seems based in the belief that Incognito was simply doing...badly...what he'd been instructed to do by his coaches. Personally I still don't have much support for Incognito and I refuse to look upon him as a sympathetic character. But I do think Kyle Turley may have said it best when he said the Dolphin management and coaching staff had set up both players to fail. And there's the rub because Joe Philbin has all but admitted his role in this mess and at best is going to come out of this looking like a stooge. As for Jeff Ireland, I'm guessing his role in this thing has already confirmed peoples worst suspicions about his character and I wouldn't be suprised or disappointed to see his head roll as a result of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 No idea what to make of this. But my gut tells me that either Martin has masterminded this scheme from the get-go to get a big payday and a release from the Phins; he is a pawn in a similar scheme and is following orders; or the situation developed in a weird way and now they are trying the cash-grab on an opportunistic basis. I could be completely wrong, of course, but the whole thing is fishy. There are no innocents here, including Martin himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 I remember growing up and loving micheal Jordan. Then finding Out he was an a hole and I have not liked him since. This event may open the door to similar things happening in the nfl. As more and more players ok this as just part of being a football player I have less and less interest in supporting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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