big_dish Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I totally get what Madeiu is saying, and totally get what 1181 is saying as well. I think both have valid points, honestly. I have no idea what Rumble is saying, but thats just because he plays with meat sticks all day also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Jesus guys, give it a rest. Sam is coming out as gay. Big fucking deal. Could he have handled his "coming out party" better? Maybe. But there are certainly valid points being made (Khatmandude) about the culture of an NFL locker room (versus what the NFL will publicly say) that are valid points as well. I personally feel that while the NFL will publicly do everything they can to "protect" Sam as a draft prospect and a player that he will ultimately face the "fag" issues that prevail in NFL locker rooms. I don't think there's any getting around that. He's going to have to have tough skin at first to get through it with whatever team drafts him and then kick ass on the field to earn the (possibly grudging) respect of his teammates. That's it. Other than it being a media nightmare, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Feel free to give any example of my "tone" that you felt was distasteful. As far as I can tell, I was immediately called a bigot for my beliefs. We've had other people come on here and echo this hypocrisy that you and others have expressed. My tone is poor? Please show me these examples of how I, the big bad wolf, needlessly attacked you and others without provocation. You don't like my beliefs. I'll never waver on them. You choose to name-call as a way of dismissing me. It's the oldest game in the book. Your beliefs are no better than mine. There are millions of people in this Country who share my beliefs. Perhaps the fuhrer will come and dispose of us because of them. I'm sure you wouldn't have a problem with that. if you're looking for tone, look no further than your last two sentences. You're continually coming off immature, and stand-offish. Don't forget that yesterday, it was me, and only me who was defending you when you were called a bigot. I still don't think you're a bigot. You're being naive about the way the world works however, and your continued calling of Michael Sam as a narcissist only shows that you fail to grasp why he did what he did. But then again, I suppose you're just name calling him because you can't argue against what he did...that's what people do when they can't argue against a point right? They name-call and call someone a narcissist for telling his story before someone else tells it for him. You seem to have a misguided notion that I care anything about your beliefs about gay people. I don't, and we've never discussed it. This conversation has purely been about an understanding of WHY and WHEN Michael Sam made his announcement. It has nothing to do with his sexuality. It's about whether you want to tell your story, or have it told for you. It's clear you're a very private person. That's cool. I consider myself one as well. Much of the world, isn't private however, and even less care about a person's privacy. If you can't understand why Sam made the announcement, and that his private life was about to become very public whether he wanted it to or not, I don't know what to tell you. You're damning a guy for telling his story before the media could tell it for him. It's pretty simple, and considering some of the comments you've made in this thread about the media, you'd think it would sink in. It doesn't make him a narcissist, an attention whore, and in his own words he's not looking to be an activist. He's merely a guy who wanted to tell his story before someone told it for him, and any truths and untruths that come with it. As for breaking barriers, that's why I asked if you thought it was an issue in NFL locker rooms that African Americans are present. The obvious answer is no, it's not an issue. Why? Because 60 years ago a group of men broke that barrier, and over time, too much time, it became acceptable. Being gay in a sports locker room is not currently considered acceptable, whether you and I think it should be or not. There's not a single openly gay athlete in any of the four major American sports. That's not a coincidence, and its why this story was going to be a big deal whether Sam told it or someone else did. It's an indictment of where those sports, and society as a whole, currently stands as far as homosexuality. Certainly gay players reside in each of those sports. They aren't openly gay however, and a factor in that is because they have some level of fear of not just how the public will react, but specifically their teammates and employers. It's out there, there's no denying it. Just in the last 2 days you've had players and front office people, anonymously and not anonymously, saying they aren't sure if the NFL is ready for it. No person should have to live in fear. Hopefully, this announcement is a step in helping others feel comfortable enough to own their sexuality and be courageous enough to be honest with those around them, because they don't fear they'll be judged. 60 years ago it took 4 men and a lot of time for it to be acceptable for African Americans to be in football locker rooms. Gay players won't find the same level of comfort until that barrier is broken and openly gay players are actively in locker rooms. It's really that simple. You may not like that Sam publicly announced it, but that doesn't mean that it isn't needed for sports to get to the point we both hope it does. In an ideal world, you're right, this isn't a story. The world you want isn't the world that currently exists. Sometimes, it takes one person making something a big deal, for that something to eventually no longer be a big deal. Again, I really hope you look back on this thread someday. Hopefully you learn something from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Jesus guys, give it a rest. Sam is coming out as gay. Big fucking deal. Could he have handled his "coming out party" better? Maybe. But there are certainly valid points being made (Khatmandude) about the culture of an NFL locker room (versus what the NFL will publicly say) that are valid points as well. I personally feel that while the NFL will publicly do everything they can to "protect" Sam as a draft prospect and a player that he will ultimately face the "fag" issues that prevail in NFL locker rooms. I don't think there's any getting around that. He's going to have to have tough skin at first to get through it with whatever team drafts him and then kick ass on the field to earn the (possibly grudging) respect of his teammates. That's it. Other than it being a media nightmare, that is. I think it will ultimately help curtail that. Yes there are gay jokes in locker rooms. Why aren't there racist jokes in locker rooms? Because, obviously, players know that there are players of other races in the locker room. IMO, gay jokes will die down if players know there's a gay player in the locker room. Football players can be meatheads, but I think 99% of players in the league are smart enough to get that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_dish Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I think it will ultimately help curtail that. Yes there are gay jokes in locker rooms. Why aren't there racist jokes in locker rooms? Because, obviously, players know that there are players of other races in the locker room. IMO, gay jokes will die down if players know there's a gay player in the locker room. Football players can be meatheads, but I think 99% of players in the league are smart enough to get that. I guarantee there are plenty of racially tinged jokes in locker rooms. Most people, especially friends, arent as PC hyped about stuff like that as many people in this country and the media hype tries to create. Jokes are probably tempered, to an extent, but I am absolutely positive they are said, laughed about and handled even if offense is had by someone. And yeah, there probably wont be many, if any, gay jokes anymore if Sam is in the locker room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I guarantee there are plenty of racially tinged jokes in locker rooms. Most people, especially friends, arent as PC hyped about stuff like that as many people in this country and the media hype tries to create. Jokes are probably tempered, to an extent, but I am absolutely positive they are said, laughed about and handled even if offense is had by someone. And yeah, there probably wont be many, if any, gay jokes anymore if Sam is in the locker room. racially tinged perhaps, just look at a lot of the top comedians of the last 20 years. Some of them do ONLY race jokes. I bet it stops short of outright offensive however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FONN-0uoTHI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 You guys know JamieB is a Gay poster. He's a good guy and I never looked at him differently! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNOFHnB8jQY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 By the way Jason you could not be more wrong about the sinful thing Read and reread until it becomes part of your zeitgeist http://www.thegodarticle.com/7/post/2011/10/clobbering-biblical-gay-bashing.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I guarantee there are plenty of racially tinged jokes in locker rooms. Most people, especially friends, arent as PC hyped about stuff like that as many people in this country and the media hype tries to create. Jokes are probably tempered, to an extent, but I am absolutely positive they are said, laughed about and handled even if offense is had by someone. And yeah, there probably wont be many, if any, gay jokes anymore if Sam is in the locker room. Do you guys not have gay friends? It's the exact same thing as a race joke you mention. You rib them about hooking up with dudes or checking you out or something, just like you would your friend for nailing a fat chick, but you treat them like a brother. Think about Gays like you think about guys who like fat chicks and that's how it would work in the locker room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Do you guys not have gay friends? It's the exact same thing as a race joke you mention. You rib them about hooking up with dudes or checking you out or something, just like you would your friend for nailing a fat chick, but you treat them like a brother. Think about Gays like you think about guys who like fat chicks and that's how it would work in the locker room. None us us has friends that are NFL players. Big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_dish Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Do you guys not have gay friends? It's the exact same thing as a race joke you mention. You rib them about hooking up with dudes or checking you out or something, just like you would your friend for nailing a fat chick, but you treat them like a brother. Think about Gays like you think about guys who like fat chicks and that's how it would work in the locker room. I'm sure his friends do it, I just don't think it's done in a locker room full of guys that are basically strangers- many of which won't know him well for months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I'm sure his friends do it, I just don't think it's done in a locker room full of guys that are basically strangers- many of which won't know him well for months. The locker room certainly has unique things to it but if you really think about it all groups are the same. http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newLDR_86.htm This guy worked at OSU for a long time. If you really think about every group you have been in it has been like this. Forming In this stage, most team members are positive and polite. Some are anxious, as they haven't fully understood what work the team will do. Others are simply excited about the task ahead. As leader, you play a dominant role at this stage, because team members' roles and responsibilities aren't clear. This stage can last for some time, as people start to work together, and as they make an effort to get to know their new colleagues. Storming Next, the team moves into the storming phase, where people start to push against the boundaries established in the forming stage. This is the stage where many teams fail. Storming often starts where there is a conflict between team members' natural working styles. People may work in different ways for all sorts of reasons, but if differing working styles cause unforeseen problems, they may become frustrated. Storming can also happen in other situations. For example, team members may challenge your authority, or jockey for position as their roles are clarified. Or, if you haven't defined clearly how the team will work, people may feel overwhelmed by their workload, or they could be uncomfortable with the approach you're using. Some may question the worth of the team's goal, and they may resist taking on tasks. Team members who stick with the task at hand may experience stress, particularly as they don't have the support of established processes, or strong relationships with their colleagues. Norming Gradually, the team moves into the norming stage. This is when people start to resolve their differences, appreciate colleagues' strengths, and respect your authority as a leader. Now that your team members know one-another better, they may socialize together, and they are able to ask each other for help and provide constructive feedback. People develop a stronger commitment to the team goal, and you start to see good progress towards it. There is often a prolonged overlap between storming and norming, because, as new tasks come up, the team may lapse back into behavior from the storming stage. Performing The team reaches the performing stage when hard work leads, without friction, to the achievement of the team's goal. The structures and processes that you have set up support this well. As leader, you can delegate much of your work, and you can concentrate on developing team members. It feels easy to be part of the team at this stage, and people who join or leave won't disrupt performance. Adjourning Many teams will reach this stage eventually. For example, project teams exist for only a fixed period, and even permanent teams may be disbanded through organizational restructuring. Team members who like routine, or who have developed close working relationships with other team members, may find this stage difficult, particularly if their future now looks uncertain. - See more at: http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newLDR_86.htm#sthash.jAVj6KFO.dpuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madieu Superstar Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 It doesn't make him a narcissist, an attention whore, and in his own words he's not looking to be an activist. He's merely a guy who wanted to tell his story before someone told it for him, and any truths and untruths that come with it. Shockingly, that's bizarrely similar to the statements Jason Collins made when he decided to come out of the closet. here's his quote: "I've never sought the spotlight. Though I'm coming out to the world, I intend to guard my privacy. I'm making this blanket statement in part to keep rumors and misunderstandings at bay." That whole not seeking the spotlight thing didn't last very long. Since then, he's landed a major endorsement deal with Nike, marched in the gay pride parade (while wearing his signature Nike t-shirt), attended the State of the Union speech (where he was made mention of by the POTUS), and implied that he was being black-listed out of the NBA because of his sexuality. As for breaking barriers, that's why I asked if you thought it was an issue in NFL locker rooms that African Americans are present. The obvious answer is no, it's not an issue. Why? Because 60 years ago a group of men broke that barrier, and over time, too much time, it became acceptable. When it did I make any mention that I believed gays shouldn't be in the NFL? I believe what I said was that he will be a huge distraction this season. It's not worth it for my team at this time. The Bengals are on the precipice of possibly winning a Super Bowl, why risk it? You said it yourself, it takes time for it to become acceptable. The Bengals don't have a lot of time. Don't forget that yesterday, it was me, and only me who was defending you when you were called a bigot. I still don't think you're a bigot. You're being naive about the way the world works however, and your continued calling of Michael Sam as a narcissist only shows that you fail to grasp why he did what he did. But then again, I suppose you're just name calling him because you can't argue against what he did...that's what people do when they can't argue against a point right? They name-call and call someone a narcissist for telling his story before someone else tells it for him. This coming from the person who called me a "jackass", completely unprovoked? But I digress. Here's the quote from the OutSports article regarding what Sam's intentions were: "Sam said he wanted to come out publicly;" As far as I can tell, there were many ways in which Sam could have dealt with this. He chose the most public way possible. That's his right. Narcissism is defined as, "extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration" I think that certainly fits. The craving for admiration has certainly been satisfied. Sam wanted to announce to the whole world that he was gay. he wanted to be known as the first openly gay NFL player. That's all fine and dandy, but I'd have more respect for someone who didn't view the act of being gay as some sort of signature achievement, relative to one's profession. Gay people are gay, straight people are straight. It should never be considered a big deal. if you're looking for tone, look no further than your last two sentences. You're continually coming off immature, and stand-offish. A wise man once told me, the only way to combat hard-headed ridiculousness is through satire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 This didn't have an affect on his college locker room. Why would his pro locker room be different? http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/35521/richardson-roomed-with-michael-sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madieu Superstar Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 This didn't have an affect on his college locker room. Why would his pro locker room be different? http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/35521/richardson-roomed-with-michael-sam Like I stated before, it's not the players that you have to worry about (not most of them, at least), it's the media. Same thing happened with Tebow. I don't think players really have a problem with Tebow. Unfortunately, the media is like a virus that attempts to destroy anything healthy in its path. Sam didn't tell the media in Mizzou. It's a whole different thing now and our team has shown many times before that they don't handle attention well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumble In the Jungle Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Anyone who thinks God hates gay people does not know what they are talking about. God loves all people (except maybe stealers fans). But God does call homosexuality a sin. And pride. And hate of people. And adultery. And fornication And so on. God does not send gay people to hell. He allows people who choose not to obey him to be separated from him in eternity. If you don't want to spend your life loving God, why would you want to spend your "afterlife" loving him? God died for our sins so sin anyways right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Shockingly, that's bizarrely similar to the statements Jason Collins made when he decided to come out of the closet. here's his quote: "I've never sought the spotlight. Though I'm coming out to the world, I intend to guard my privacy. I'm making this blanket statement in part to keep rumors and misunderstandings at bay." That whole not seeking the spotlight thing didn't last very long. Since then, he's landed a major endorsement deal with Nike, marched in the gay pride parade (while wearing his signature Nike t-shirt), attended the State of the Union speech (where he was made mention of by the POTUS), and implied that he was being black-listed out of the NBA because of his sexuality. When it did I make any mention that I believed gays shouldn't be in the NFL? I believe what I said was that he will be a huge distraction this season. It's not worth it for my team at this time. The Bengals are on the precipice of possibly winning a Super Bowl, why risk it? You said it yourself, it takes time for it to become acceptable. The Bengals don't have a lot of time. This coming from the person who called me a "jackass", completely unprovoked? But I digress. Here's the quote from the OutSports article regarding what Sam's intentions were: "Sam said he wanted to come out publicly;" As far as I can tell, there were many ways in which Sam could have dealt with this. He chose the most public way possible. That's his right. Narcissism is defined as, "extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration" I think that certainly fits. The craving for admiration has certainly been satisfied. Sam wanted to announce to the whole world that he was gay. he wanted to be known as the first openly gay NFL player. That's all fine and dandy, but I'd have more respect for someone who didn't view the act of being gay as some sort of signature achievement, relative to one's profession. Gay people are gay, straight people are straight. It should never be considered a big deal. A wise man once told me, the only way to combat hard-headed ridiculousness is through satire. you keep thinking this is all about you and what you think. It doesn't matter what you think. The world doesn't think like you think. It's not the nice rosey world you want to pretend it is. It's not a world where everyone is accepted equally and people aren't judged for their beliefs. The fact that you completely gloss over the "breaking barriers" section of my post and only focus on Sam as a narcissist, shows all that really needs to be said at this point. Do you have the same level of disdain for Tebow, and how he publicly talks about his religious faith, even during football press conferences? Even as an active player he went and participated in a religious and anti-abortion commercial during the most watched tv moment of the year. Do you have an issue with Tebow speaking publicly about his personal beliefs and life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madieu Superstar Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 you keep thinking this is all about you and what you think. It doesn't matter what you think. The world doesn't think like you think. It's not the nice rosy world you want to pretend it is. The fact that you completely gloss over the "breaking barriers" section of my post and only focus on Sam as a narcissist, shows all that really needs to be said at this point. Do you have the same level of disdain for Tebow, and how he publicly talks about his religious faith, even during football press conferences? On the contrary, it's not the 1950's anymore; the grief industry and the media like to pretend that it is. The vast majority of Americans could care less about Michael Sam's bedroom or Tim Tebow's religion. You, and others like you, pretend that we care in order to elevate your cause far beyond it's actual impact. It's so artificial, it's sickening. As for Tebow, I never care much for people bringing up God, as it relates to athletics. After all, I don't point to the sky when I successfully send a fax at work. I do, however, have a disdain for the demon-cats in the media who mock and ridicule Tebow, while elevating Sam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Being gay is small potatoes. [attachment=1320:js.jpg] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madieu Superstar Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Being gay is small potatoes. js.jpg And who is saying this stuff? Wait for it... THE MEDIA THE MEDIA THE MEDIA THE MEDIA THE MEDIA THE MEDIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madieu Superstar Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 :doh: No need to respond, I'm assuming you should take shelter before the Klan Rally begins down the block. Stay indoors, their opening the fire hydrants! I also heard The Outsiders are on the prowl for gay people. It's a dangerous, bigoted country, out to marginalize all minorities! By the way, the march from Selma to Montgomery begins at 8 PM. Be there or be nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I can't keep track of what's bothering you about all this. Can you put down some concise bullet points why or point me to a concise post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 And who is saying this stuff? Wait for it... THE MEDIA THE MEDIA THE MEDIA THE MEDIA THE MEDIA THE MEDIA The media is a reflection of society. If you don't watch something they won't report on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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