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FUCK ISRAEL!!!!


Rumble In the Jungle

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Hair I don't have a problem with you thinking Hamas' strategy is ill founded, my problem is that you give very little credence to why Hamas exists and why they were elected. They didn't just appear out of a vacuum, the human rights issues play a big role here in creating the kind of blowback that has allowed Hamas to take the power they have.

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Hair I don't have a problem with you thinking Hamas' strategy is ill founded, my problem is that you give very little credence to why Hamas exists and why they were elected. They didn't just appear out of a vacuum, the human rights issues play a big role here in creating the kind of blowback that has allowed Hamas to take the power they have.

 

Exactly who is served by a strategy based upon provoking a military response from a neighbor?

 

Or if you prefer, how does the act of firing thousands of rockets at an enemy serve the needs of a people who are in no position to fight back?

 

Am I to believe Palestinians are incapable of making their voices and complaints heard without the use of rockets? 

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Exactly who is served by a strategy based upon provoking a military response from a neighbor?

 

Or if you prefer, how does the act of firing thousands of rockets at an enemy serve the needs of a people who are in no position to fight back?

 

Am I to believe Palestinians are incapable of making their voices and complaints heard without the use of rockets? 

 

 

Am I to believe Israel is incapable of defending itself without expanding its borders?

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Exactly who is served by a strategy based upon provoking a military response from a neighbor?

 

Or if you prefer, how does the act of firing thousands of rockets at an enemy serve the needs of a people who are in no position to fight back?

 

Am I to believe Palestinians are incapable of making their voices and complaints heard without the use of rockets? 

Exactly herein lies the problem. No one gives a shit about the Palestinian rights. When there is no aggression by the Palestinians, it's out of sight, out of mind. The news here in the US, and most other western news, don't report on the continuous land grabs, human rights violations, sanctions, etc, exerted from the Israelis towards the Palestinians in the Gaza and other Palestinian owned territories. It's laughable to think there is a voice for the Palestinians other than minority groups that have no media outlets or any other means to make the plight of the Palestinian people known to the world.

Hell, most news here don't cover the atrocities of the Israeli strikes to make it look Israel is doing everything in their power to be humanitarian, even though it's just a sham.

The US keeps sanctioning Arab countries for violations of human rights and war crimes, were is the same sanctioning against Israel.

 

Your statement that I bolded is the most ridiculous and one sided opinion on this conflict I've heard yet from any pundit on either side.

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Am I to believe Israel is incapable of defending itself without expanding its borders?

 

You seem unwilling to defend the use of rockets by Hamas. Probably because there's no defense for it.

 

 

 

 

Exactly herein lies the problem. No one gives a shit about the Palestinian rights. When there is no aggression by the Palestinians, it's out of sight, out of mind. The news here in the US, and most other western news, don't report on the continuous land grabs, human rights violations, sanctions, etc, exerted from the Israelis towards the Palestinians in the Gaza and other Palestinian owned territories.

 

Gotta give props to ValleyBengal for having the guts to defend the rocket attacks by Hamas. And for the record I do agree with him that the only reason Hamas is deliberately provoking a military response from Israel is for the publicity it generates.

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You seem unwilling to defend the use of rockets by Hamas. Probably because there's no defense for it.

 

 

 

 

 

Gotta give props to ValleyBengal for having the guts to defend the rocket attacks by Hamas. And for the record I do agree with him that the only reason Hamas is deliberately provoking a military response from Israel is for the publicity it generates.

That's the problem with your arguments. You don't even read what others are saying. Nowhere in my statement did I defend the rocket strikes. I criticized your statement that the Palestinians should pursue other means of making themselves heard - even though have no one that listens to them. And I simply don't condone your statement because they do not have the means to express themselves and get help because it is supressed. Violence is never the right answer, but when a rat is cornered and has no other means to defend itself it will bite. While typically not effective against a much mightier opponent, there is no other choice.

 

So, what in your opinion should the Palestinians do? Throwing out Hamas will not solve this problem - it will simply start over the cycle again of Israel taking what's not theirs.

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Someone may have mentioned it in passing, but it's worth noting: Correct me if I'm wromg, but aren't there still large numbers of displaced Palestinians living in refugee camps in Syria, Jordan, & Lebanon? None of those countries to my knowledge have granted citizenship to those displaced people in any number, leaving entire families effectively stateless for not just years but more importantly *generations*.

There are adults who have grown up longing to return to a place that, frankly, no longer exists. They've been prevented from assimilating into the society where they were raised, though, so they still think of the situation they are in as temporary; again, to be frank, despite all indications to the contrary. The concept of home for them is a fantasy, a someplace else that they naturally are focused on returning to, and of course their frustrations mount as they get older and learn that this homeland they've heard so much of is only in the memories of their parents and grandparents. That Palestine has been replaced with rubble & checkpoints & a border wall that is a staggeringly ugly testament to it all. (Seriously, you rarely see it in pictures but it makes the old Berlin Wall look like an idyllic picket fence. People who want a border wall with Mexico should look at Israel's efforts to contain Palestine behind concrete and consider why I might not want something like that scarring the desert I know.)

I haven't even touched on the massacres in some of those camps committed by their own neighbors while the IDF stood back and watched, but anyone interested can look up Sabra or Shatila. Not the only incidents, I'm guessing, but those are the ones that seem to be known to every Palestinian I've met and virtually nobody else.

Reading this thread, it's clear that a lot of people really do not know who the Palestinians are, what it is they've lost, how they've been treated since and thus why it is that blowing oneself up on a crowded bus could come to be seen as the only way forward.

Yes, there is going to have to recognition for Israel but Israel can not keep expanding. My thoughts on Old Jerusalem have been covered already.

Also thanks to the mods for trying to keep this thread alive, doomed as it may be.
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 Nowhere in my statement did I defend the rocket strikes.

 

Sure you did.

 

Nobody listens to the Palestinians, you claimed.

 

What other choices do they have, you blustered.

 

Violence is never the right answer, but a cornered rat is going to bite, you opined. 

 

The fact of the matter is you support the rocket strikes right up to the point where you actually have to admit you're supporting rocket strikes.

 

 

 

So, what in your opinion should the Palestinians do?

 

You know the answer to this question without me having to say it.  

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You seem unwilling to defend the use of rockets by Hamas. Probably because there's no defense for it.

 

 

 

You seem unwilling to defend the human rights violations by Israel. Probably because there's no defense for it.

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The reason I said fuck them both is Israel is way too aggressive 

and acts like they can do anything and fuck people for even

saying it's wrong. They kill innocent people and act like it is

justified. And America is handing them money and acting

like it's OK. I think it is because a lot of Christians think the

Jews are God's people. So they have to be right, right?

I think it's bullshit. 

 

But let's not pretend Palestine and Hamas are innocent.

They sacrifice their people for the "greater good." 

And I actually think they put innocent people, especially

kids in harm's ways for a photo-op. I think it's bullshit. 

 

What I also think is bullshit is over 10,000 kids have been

killed in Syria in the past 3 years. Hell Isis has been killing

kids too. I just read the other day they wiped out an entire

town and killed babies as young as one. Yet, what's

going on in Gaza is more important here in the U.S.

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 And America is handing them money and acting

like it's OK. I think it is because a lot of Christians think the

Jews are God's people

And ironically approx 50% of religious Jews are atheist and something like 75% don't believe the bible is true lol 

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Hair, you're spitting so much bullshit. Numbers don't lie. This isn't Isreal defending it self, it's genocide! They are chanting on the other side of the wall making fun of all the dead kids. Saying close the schools since there isn't any kids left.

 

Sorry Rumble, but I don't think any good will come from the two of us further conversing. We don't agree about the most fundamental point, the Palestinians so-called right to fire thousands of rockets at Israel, and neither of us is likely to change our opinions. Which would be all well and good on most topics, but you made it abundantly clear you can't keep your emotions in check.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You seem unwilling to defend the human rights violations by Israel. Probably because there's no defense for it.

 

You keep trying to change the subject from your support of terrorism. Or weren't you aware that firing untargeted weapons at civilian population centers was against international law? And are you aware that the rocket attacks by Hamas have been declared acts of terror by the United Nations, the European Union, Amnesty International, etc.

 

Truth be told I haven't offered one word in defense of Israels human rights violations. Rather, what I'm guilty of is repeatedly pointing out how Hamas and other Palestinian groups are guilty of engaging in state sponsored acts of terrorism that don't deserve the support you insist on giving them.

 

BTW, how funny is the level of support Hamas gets on this board? Most of the responses in this thread have been overwhelmingly supportive of Hamas rocketing Israel due to reasons ranging from pride, revenge, acts of pointless symbolism, or the need for publicity. Yet barely 30% of Palestinians still support the strategy of rocket attacks, down sharply for obvious reasons from nearly 80% in 2001.

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So, what in your opinion should the Palestinians do? Throwing out Hamas will not solve this problem - it will simply start over the cycle again of Israel taking what's not theirs.

Before Hamas gained power, Fatah was a LOT closer to some kind of a brokered peace accord than Hamas will ever negotiate...because they refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to exist and they want to kill them all.

 

That said, there's plenty of blame to go around. Israel needs to retract itself within the "green line" established back in the day and not forcefully remove inidigent Palestianians from land that they otherwise own just so Israel can put up another militarily-backed gated community up in their faces.

 

PLENTY of blame to go around on both sides, and no easy solution, because there's no trust on either side, and I can't blame either side for that lack of trust.

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There are adults who have grown up longing to return to a place that, frankly, no longer exists. They've been prevented from assimilating into the society where they were raised, though, so they still think of the situation they are in as temporary; again, to be frank, despite all indications to the contrary. The concept of home for them is a fantasy, a someplace else that they naturally are focused on returning to, and of course their frustrations mount as they get older and learn that this homeland they've heard so much of is only in the memories of their parents and grandparents. That Palestine has been replaced with rubble & checkpoints & a border wall that is a staggeringly ugly testament to it all.

 

All true, which begs the question...what now?

 

Hamas says that as long as rockets fly their dream lives on. So, are you buying that? And if not then let me ask you the very same question that was just put to me. What should Palestinians do? More specifically, should they continue supporting those who are willing to commit acts of terrorism to keep a fantasy alive?

 

 

 

I haven't even touched on the massacres in some of those camps committed by their own neighbors while the IDF stood back and watched, but anyone interested can look up Sabra or Shatila. Not the only incidents, I'm guessing, but those are the ones that seem to be known to every Palestinian I've met and virtually nobody else.

 

My memory is fuzzy on the details but you're talking about massacres that occured in Lebanon in the early 80's, right? And as I recall those massacres were conducted in retaliation for an earlier massacre in the mid 70's, which was commited in retaliation for an even earlier massacre. And so on and so on and so on. 

 

But to the point about nobody outside of Palestine knowing or caring about these events, well...how could we be having this conversation if that were true?

 

 

 

 

 

Reading this thread, it's clear that a lot of people really do not know who the Palestinians are, what it is they've lost, how they've been treated since and thus why it is that blowing oneself up on a crowded bus could come to be seen as the only way forward.

 

 I have empathy for the plight of Palestinians, but I'll never support them if it means I have to condone a Hamas strategy that for years conducted a campaign of suicide bombings before turning to rockets.

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Sorry Rumble, but I don't think any good will come from the two of us further conversing. We don't agree about the most fundamental point, the Palestinians so-called right to fire thousands of rockets at Israel, and neither of us is likely to change our opinions. Which would be all well and good on most topics, but you made it abundantly clear you can't keep your emotions in check.
 
 
 
 
 
 
You keep trying to change the subject from your support of terrorism. Or weren't you aware that firing untargeted weapons at civilian population centers was against international law? And are you aware that the rocket attacks by Hamas have been declared acts of terror by the United Nations, the European Union, Amnesty International, etc.
 
Truth be told I haven't offered one word in defense of Israels human rights violations. Rather, what I'm guilty of is repeatedly pointing out how Hamas and other Palestinian groups are guilty of engaging in state sponsored acts of terrorism that don't deserve the support you insist on giving them.
 
BTW, how funny is the level of support Hamas gets on this board? Most of the responses in this thread have been overwhelmingly supportive of Hamas rocketing Israel due to reasons ranging from pride, revenge, acts of pointless symbolism, or the need for publicity. Yet barely 30% of Palestinians still support the strategy of rocket attacks, down sharply for obvious reasons from nearly 80% in 2001.


Engaging in asymmetrical warfare is hardly a new tactic when one side has inferior technology and numbers. History shows the inferior fighting force will employ those kinds of tactics right down to our own when we faced a superior British army.

Im not sure I've so much condoned that as much as done what you refuse to do put it in the proper context as to why the Palestinians support it.

I imagine if you were in their situation you might employ similar tactics to fight for your own basic human rights.
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Im not sure I've so much condoned that as much as done what you refuse to do put it in the proper context as to why the Palestinians support it.

 

They don't support it.

 

Or rather, they don't support it as strongly as they once did as Palestinian support for the rocket campaign has been halved since 2001.

 

Palestinian support for the rocket campaign has now fallen to roughly 35%, no doubt because Palestinians themselves now see what happens when you hide a weapon system behind civilians.

 

There are even a few recent examples of Palestinians attempting to stop Hamas from launching rockets from their neighborhoods. (Wanna guess how that turned out?)

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Here are some actual quotes from a board I read locally.

 

 

Why is the US even negotiating with Hamas.... A registered terror network!!!!!

All we should be doing is asking Isreal....
WHAT DO YOU NEED???

Unreal

 

 

America the Great is no more thanks to Obama and all of our politicians who are rendered helpless. Sad to see we negotiate with terrorists and yet put force on Israel to back down when all they want is PEACE.

 

Followed by:

 

 

things might change in a couple years.....I just HOPE we can recover from the damage all this CHANGE has done....

With the Senate flipping in November is a huge start...

 

I think old George (Carlin) was right. Nothing you can do but sit back and enjoy the show. You can never educate people (and the millions like them) that are so entrenched.

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