Andy Dalton contract: Cincinnati Bengals should have waited

[|SF2|]

So we give MJ a 12.5 million dollar deal for his 2.5 sacks and pay Collins 9 million to ride the bench again.  Makes no sense

Move Collins to LT,Whit to LG and young Bolling will become a backup. Hue immediately makes running game more effective.

MJ is tagged if the coaches think he can get back to 2012 form. With a healthy Geno this might be the case. Regardless, I don't think he is worth what he signed for to be honest.

[scharm]

My point was finding a BETTER QB in FA than Andy doesn't happen that often. And adding the names of guys who played before the iPod (not iPhone, iPod) came out to pad your numbers is laughable. Hell, add Jim Plunkett and Billy Kilmer while you are at it.

Maddox? Really?

 

No it isn't.   The NFL in the early 90s accepted Unrestricted Free Agency with a salary cap structure.   Since that time the ability to find QBs outside the draft and to have those QBs go on to be apart of playoff teams is FACT.

 

Your attempt to limit it to a recent time period is weak because the NFL system isn't changing and the fact is 3 of the 12 playoff teams from last season were QB'd by players that weren't drafted by that team.

 

Your point is wrong.   The Bengals could have waited to extend Dalton and not suffered the Flacco Contract and if forced to go find a QB there would be options that wouldn't doom their playoff/Superbowl chances.

 

Sure I can't name the potential replacements  in AUGUST but nobody knows what the Free Agent  or Trade market for QBs will look like in AUGUST for the up coming offseason period.

 

Your point is a bad one and it shows you don't really understand the dynamics of the league you follow.   That is laughable.    The NFL isn't a league were capable starting QBs have to be groomed for a few seasons in order to QB a team to success.  

[scharm]

 

So we give MJ a 12.5 million dollar deal for his 2.5 sacks and pay Collins 9 million to ride the bench again.  Makes no sense

 

Bengals are clearly behind the Broncos and Patriots for the AFC Championship on paper.   Short term thinking regardless of the future impact makes sense when the Broncos and Patriots are adding talent like Revis, Ware etc.

 

Our focus on extending guys that were going to be on the roster anyway for 2014 may have robbed them of depth needed to win a Conference championship this season.

 

Allowing Collins to walk into unrestricted Free Agency has us now counting on Newhouse who wasn't good in Green Bay to back up LT.   Boling/Pollack/Bodine have to sort out LG and C.

 

Collins could have taken LT,  Whit LG and then they are that much stronger in depth and that might be a better line than the best case scenario for 2014 will be.

[HairOnFire]

 

So we give MJ a 12.5 million dollar deal for his 2.5 sacks and pay Collins 9 million to ride the bench again.  Makes no sense

 

It makes even less sense than you're thinking.

 

Schien's rant about the Bengals waiting to extend Dalton is still being made after both of those players bolted in FA.

 

So no MJ, no Collins, and no Bridgewater.

 

Thus, under the limitations imposed by Schein's "keep waiting" rant Westin's woulda coulda shoulda dream is reduced to the Bengals being willing to wait for Mallett or someone else to shake loose. 

 

As for Scharm, it's impossible to tell who he'd be willing to wait for since he refuses to name which newer version of Elvis Grbac he's waiting for.

[scharm]

 

As for Scharm, it's impossible to tell who he'd be willing to wait for since he refuses to name which newer version of Elvis Grbac he's waiting for.

 

 

 

I'm not refusing.  Kindly give me the results of the 2014 season for the QBs and I would happily name a few to replace Dalton.

 

When the offseason kicks off in March don't GMs have that available to them?    

 

Unless the NFL is going to revamp the unrestricted FA period/trade rules and salary cap, why wouldn't that reality be applicable? 

[scharm]

Bengals had free agents bolt because they didn't use cap room to apply a tag available to them.   That cap room was earmarked for an extension to Dalton and others.

 

Schein's rant = valid.

 

Schein's example of Baltimore = invalid because Baltimore didn't choose to wait.  Flacco had a rookie deal of 30 mil in his back pocket and agents that knew the Baltimore cap situation forced the Ravens to wait.

 

 

Broncos and Patriots  were in the conference championship last year.   They added short term improvements.   Bengals lost depth in favor to extend players that were going to be on the roster in 2014 anyway.

 

The correct path will rightfully be determined by which organizations add to their respective trophy cases in the next few seasons.

[MichaelWeston]

 

It makes even less sense than you're thinking.

 

Schien's rant about the Bengals waiting to extend Dalton is still being made after both of those players bolted in FA.

 

So no MJ, no Collins, and no Bridgewater.

 

Thus, under the limitations imposed by Schein's "keep waiting" rant Westin's woulda coulda shoulda dream is reduced to the Bengals being willing to wait for Mallett or someone else to shake loose. 

 

As for Scharm, it's impossible to tell who he'd be willing to wait for since he refuses to name which newer version of Elvis Grbac he's waiting for.

 

After you decided to let MJ and Collins walk it made no sense not to pay Dalton. Essentially you are getting the same things out of Dalton for about the same price with the possibility of  5 more years at a reduced rate. 

[HairOnFire]

Bengals had free agents bolt because they didn't use cap room to apply a tag available to them.   That cap room was earmarked for an extension to Dalton and others.

 

Schein's rant = valid.

 

Nope.

 

Schein's rant about how the Bengals should have waited even longer to extend Dalton was written two days ago, several months after MJ and Collins left in FA.

 

Happily, in Schein's "what-if" scenario the loss of those departed free agents is partially offset but the addition of backup QB AJ McCooter, who you wanted in the draft.

[scharm]

 

Nope.

 

Schein's rant about how the Bengals should have waited even longer to extend Dalton was written two days ago, several months after MJ and Collins left in FA.

 

Happily, in Schein's "what-if" scenario the loss of those departed free agents is partially offset but the addition of backup QB AJ McCooter, who you wanted in the draft.

 

Timing of pen to paper does not dispute the actual reality.    The idea of extending Dalton and other key players just didn't appear out of August air.

[scharm]

 

After you decided to let MJ and Collins walk it made no sense not to pay Dalton. Essentially you are getting the same things out of Dalton for about the same price with the possibility of  5 more years at a reduced rate. 

 

This is correct.     The give was MJ and Collins.   The take will hopefully be extensions for key players in addition to Dalton.

 

Schein has a valid point when he points to the Bronc and Pats.     His example of using Baltimore is incorrect because Baltimore didn't choose to wait, they were forced into it.

 

As the struggle for power in the AFC unfolds for this season these decisions will play out and hopefully our reliance on roster depth and future focus beats out the Broncos/Pats moves to win now.

[HairOnFire]

Timing of pen to paper does not dispute the actual reality.    The idea of extending Dalton and other key players just didn't appear out of August air.

 

Actual reality is what prevents you from including MJ and Collins in your own what-if scenarios.

 

Further, it was out of the August air that Schein put forward his latest rant about still not extending Dalton, an idea he continues to advocate despite MJ and Collins now being in Tampa Bay.

 

Truth be told neither you nor Westin think Schein's rant makes any sense unless it was complimented with a few woulda-shoulda-coulda scenarios of your own.

[scharm]

 

Actual reality is what prevents you from including MJ and Collins in your own what-if scenarios.

 

Further, it was out of the August air that Schein put forward his latest rant about still not extending Dalton, an idea he continues to advocate despite MJ and Collins now being in Tampa Bay.

 

Truth be told neither you nor Westin think Schein's rant makes any sense unless it was complimented with a few woulda-shoulda-coulda scenarios of your own.

 

Yes,  Schein wrote an article in August.   Why?  Because that's when the extension was signed?  This is how news cycles work.   His article and viewpoint gets more conversation/reads when it is timed with the actual event, duh.   It is shameful that this concept is lost and the posting date has been become the critical point of your rebuttal.  Awesome Job.

 

Now, I'm an NFL fan that knows Free Agency opens in March.  That's why I don't have a good list of future QBs available in August and it's also why I know the Bengals didn't elect to tag a key free agent and saved the cap room for extensions of players on the roster.   This  free agent thing has been happening since 1993.

 

Like it or not when Schein talks about Pats/Bronc vs. extending Dalton he has a valid point that isn't reduced because he waited to make that point near the time Dalton was extended so his article would likely be more successful.   Why?  Because the idea of extending Dalton was not reactionary it was the plan, the choice to do that over retaining key free agents.

 

Were he went wrong is pointing to Baltimore, because Baltimore didn't choose to wait.  They were forced into it.

 

 

The parts were he makes valid points will be proven right or wrong by the organization that actaully adds to their trophy case. 

[HairOnFire]

 It is shameful that this concept is lost and the posting date has been become the critical point of your rebuttal.  Awesome Job.

 

 

Should I have done what you did and simply ignore how Schein continued to advocate not extending Dalton long after those players had left?

 

Seems to me that as circumstances change a persons opinions should change with them.

 

Seems to me the loss of those players should be a factor that needs to be considered.

 

Yet Schein continues to make his rant in much the same manner as he did months ago.

 

And for the most part so do you.

[HairOnFire]

 

Were he went wrong is pointing to Baltimore, because Baltimore didn't choose to wait.  They were forced into it.

 

Seems like Schein went wrong in a couple of ways.

 

Yet you still think his opinion is valid.

 

Go figure.

[scharm]

 

Should I have done what you did and simply ignore how Schein continued to advocate not extending Dalton long after those players had left?

 

I said he made a valid point from this particular article.   How can I be accountable for this bug up your ass about whatever he wrote from the past? 

 

 

The reality is the Bengals plan was to let those free agents test the market instead of locking up cap room that would have retained 1 via tags.    The Bengals elected not to match a restricted free agent offer sheet.   This cap room was protected in order to reach extensions for players already under contract for 2014.

[|SF2|]

 

No it isn't.   The NFL in the early 90s accepted Unrestricted Free Agency with a salary cap structure.   Since that time the ability to find QBs outside the draft and to have those QBs go on to be apart of playoff teams is FACT.

 

Your attempt to limit it to a recent time period is weak because the NFL system isn't changing and the fact is 3 of the 12 playoff teams from last season were QB'd by players that weren't drafted by that team.

 

Your point is wrong.   The Bengals could have waited to extend Dalton and not suffered the Flacco Contract and if forced to go find a QB there would be options that wouldn't doom their playoff/Superbowl chances.

 

Sure I can't name the potential replacements  in AUGUST but nobody knows what the Free Agent  or Trade market for QBs will look like in AUGUST for the up coming offseason period.

 

Your point is a bad one and it shows you don't really understand the dynamics of the league you follow.   That is laughable.    The NFL isn't a league were capable starting QBs have to be groomed for a few seasons in order to QB a team to success.  

You can't keep changing the parameters of the discussion.  I said in the last 10 years there hasn't been a large amount of FA QBs available who were better than Andy.   If we were going to take the risk that we may have to go that route, the facts are they haven't been that many recently.   Who were the guys who were better than Andy the last two years?  Best FA QBs were Schaub and Fitz.  I don't care what happened in the 90s, its 2014 and three or 4 names over a 10 year span is NOT MANY. 

 

If Andy has a very good year and plays well in a playoff game, his guaranteed numbers and years simply go up substantially.  No, nothing like Flacco which was a stupid move by the Ravens but certainly enough to hurt us in other areas.

 

I already pointed out that we should have taken a legitimate prospect in this year's draft.  We didn't (Mccarron is broken) so we have Andy and Campbell.   That is what management was facing.

 

I also said if a Kurt Warner type had become available, SIGN HIM.   Windows of opportunity don't stay open long as MJ and Collins leaving show.  That simply has not been the case.  Fact is if Locker or Gabbert became available next year and Andy wets the bed, I wouldn't have a problem bringing either in although I like Locker better (He has been getting killed in Tenn and his receiving corps is bad).  Both went to very weak teams.

[scharm]

 

You can't keep changing the parameters of the discussion. I said in the last 10 years there hasn't been a large amount of FA QBs available who were better than Andy.

 

Your attempt to limit the discussion to your qualifications is an example of how weak your initial point was.   The NFL salary cap/free agency era began in 1993.   Since that time teams have been able to find QBs capable enough to play for teams that qualify and advance in the playoffs.

 

Your inclusion of "large"  is also an indication of weakness of your point.   I don't need "large",  Andy Dalton fills 1 spot.  

 

My viewpoint is based on what has happened in the NFL. 

 

This is a key point because your initial point was based on their being no alternatives and having the Flacco contract as a warning.  Just not true.    Just because I don't have a listing of QBs in August of Qbs that would meet your qualifications of "large" or "better"  doesn't mean the Bengals had no alternatives.  

[|SF2|]

 

Your attempt to limit the discussion to your qualifications is an example of how weak your initial point was.   The NFL salary cap/free agency era began in 1993.   Since that time teams have been able to find QBs capable enough to play for teams that qualify and advance in the playoffs.

 

Your inclusion of "large"  is also an indication of weakness of your point.   I don't need "large",  Andy Dalton fills 1 spot.  

 

My viewpoint is based on what has happened in the NFL. 

 

This is a key point because your initial point was based on their being no alternatives and having the Flacco contract as a warning.  Just not true.    Just because I don't have a listing of QBs in August of Qbs that would meet your qualifications of "large" or "better"  doesn't mean the Bengals had no alternatives.  

No, your attempt to dramatically extend the time frame to make it seem like this is a common occurrence is the issue....Period.

 

Here are  the top rated FA QBs , in order, actually available the past few seasons.  

 

2014: Josh McCown (5 decent games does not erase 10 years of suck and he is old), Vick (turnover machine, can't read a defense, speed diminishing) Josh Freeman (basketcase),  Schaub (was a trade and we would have had to take on his contract)

 

2013: Tim Tebow (LOL), Kevin Kolb (21 games in 7 years)  Fitzpatrick (makes Andy's arm look like a cannon), Matt Cassel (Worse arm than Fitz). 

 

2012: Manning (not coming here but it would have been AWESOME),  Flynn (lost training camp battle to a rookie), Alex Smith (career 81 rated QB), Chad Henne (never has had a season above 80) and Campbell who we now have.

 

In 2011 It was Hasselbeck(Very Old and nothing more than a backup at his age), Vince Young(cut) and Gradkowski (signed by Bengals).

 

So in the last 4 years we have actually signed two of the higher rated FA QBs......to include one currently on our roster but still, management decided Andy was better and signed him.

 

The talent needed to surpass Andy is most likely to be found in the 1st or 2nd round of the draft, NOT in FA unless Mike Brown has a stroke and starts throwing money around when the rare Brees or Manning is available.

 

Your options (besides Manning) would not have made us a better team the last 3 years or this year.

 

Smith played on GREAT teams in SF and was average.  He was dumped for a guy with 7 career starts.  His OLine last year in KC was excellent and the the CAP issue it caused lost him 3 of 5 Oline starters this year.  

[Squirrlnutz]

This thread is everything wrong with this board.  So much stupid and too much "madden" attitude towards team building.  There was absolutely no reason to sign our backup left tackle to a starters contract, and the moment they drafted Hunt, one of MJ or Dunlap was designated to leave.  How can people be so insanely dense that they can't understand this?

 

Not once has someone pointed out the number of new starting QBs who DIDN'T win an MVP or take their team to the playoffs or win a superbowl.  Sure it CAN happen, but the vast majority of QB additions don't do shit.  Like I've asked time and time and time and time again:

 

Show me a fucking team coming off two consecutive playoff berths who voluntarily changed QBs the next season...  ANYONE?!  

 

Additionally, the decision to extend a QB is based on his regular season performance, his playoff performance shapes the money.  Dalton earned a new contract already.

[|SF2|]

This thread is everything wrong with this board.  So much stupid and too much "madden" attitude towards team building.  There was absolutely no reason to sign our backup left tackle to a starters contract, and the moment they drafted Hunt, one of MJ or Dunlap was designated to leave.  How can people be so insanely dense that they can't understand this?

 

Not once has someone pointed out the number of new starting QBs who DIDN'T win an MVP or take their team to the playoffs or win a superbowl.  Sure it CAN happen, but the vast majority of QB additions don't do shit.  Like I've asked time and time and time and time again:

 

Show me a fucking team coming off two consecutive playoff berths who voluntarily changed QBs the next season...  ANYONE?!  

 

Additionally, the decision to extend a QB is based on his regular season performance, his playoff performance shapes the money.  Dalton earned a new contract already.

San Francisco 2013,1991

Baltimore Ravens 2001

Minnesota Vikings 1972,1990,1994,1998.1999

Lions:1994

Oilers/Titan: 1993

Tampa Bay:1983,2001

St. Louis:1985,1986,2002

Eagles:1991, 2010

[scharm]

No, your attempt to dramatically extend the time frame to make it seem like this is a common occurrence is the issue....Period.

 

Here are  the top rated FA QBs , in order, actually available the past few seasons.  

 

2014: Josh McCown (5 decent games does not erase 10 years of suck and he is old), Vick (turnover machine, can't read a defense, speed diminishing) Josh Freeman (basketcase),  Schaub (was a trade and we would have had to take on his contract)

 

2013: Tim Tebow (LOL), Kevin Kolb (21 games in 7 years)  Fitzpatrick (makes Andy's arm look like a cannon), Matt Cassel (Worse arm than Fitz). 

 

2012: Manning (not coming here but it would have been AWESOME),  Flynn (lost training camp battle to a rookie), Alex Smith (career 81 rated QB), Chad Henne (never has had a season above 80) and Campbell who we now have.

 

In 2011 It was Hasselbeck(Very Old and nothing more than a backup at his age), Vince Young(cut) and Gradkowski (signed by Bengals).

 

So in the last 4 years we have actually signed two of the higher rated FA QBs......to include one currently on our roster but still, management decided Andy was better and signed him.

 

The talent needed to surpass Andy is most likely to be found in the 1st or 2nd round of the draft, NOT in FA unless Mike Brown has a stroke and starts throwing money around when the rare Brees or Manning is available.

 

Your options (besides Manning) would not have made us a better team the last 3 years or this year.

 

Smith played on GREAT teams in SF and was average.  He was dumped for a guy with 7 career starts.  His OLine last year in KC was excellent and the the CAP issue it caused lost him 3 of 5 Oline starters this year.  

 

It is your claim the Bengals had no alternative.   All you are doing is limiting the sample so your point of view can have more merit.   This does not strengthen your arguement it points out the weakness.

 

The Bengals are regulated by a system put in place since 1993.   Your attempt to limit this to a few years doesn't make it the norm or the reality for future years.

 

This is just 1 aspect of your point of view being incorrect.   As the Bengals still had the tag to use.  Still have Campbell.  Still have a 5th round Qb which extend the period of replacement beyond next offseason.

[Jackie Treehorn]

Your logic has no place here sir. Please repeat an inane argument over and over. Thanks.

 

 

This thread is everything wrong with this board.  So much stupid and too much "madden" attitude towards team building.  There was absolutely no reason to sign our backup left tackle to a starters contract, and the moment they drafted Hunt, one of MJ or Dunlap was designated to leave.  How can people be so insanely dense that they can't understand this?

 

Not once has someone pointed out the number of new starting QBs who DIDN'T win an MVP or take their team to the playoffs or win a superbowl.  Sure it CAN happen, but the vast majority of QB additions don't do shit.  Like I've asked time and time and time and time again:

 

Show me a fucking team coming off two consecutive playoff berths who voluntarily changed QBs the next season...  ANYONE?!  

 

Additionally, the decision to extend a QB is based on his regular season performance, his playoff performance shapes the money.  Dalton earned a new contract already.

[|kennethmw|]

No, your attempt to dramatically extend the time frame to make it seem like this is a common occurrence is the issue....Period.

 

Here are  the top rated FA QBs , in order, actually available the past few seasons.  

 

2014: Josh McCown (5 decent games does not erase 10 years of suck and he is old), Vick (turnover machine, can't read a defense, speed diminishing) Josh Freeman (basketcase),  Schaub (was a trade and we would have had to take on his contract)

 

2013: Tim Tebow (LOL), Kevin Kolb (21 games in 7 years)  Fitzpatrick (makes Andy's arm look like a cannon), Matt Cassel (Worse arm than Fitz). 

 

2012: Manning (not coming here but it would have been AWESOME),  Flynn (lost training camp battle to a rookie), Alex Smith (career 81 rated QB), Chad Henne (never has had a season above 80) and Campbell who we now have.

 

In 2011 It was Hasselbeck(Very Old and nothing more than a backup at his age), Vince Young(cut) and Gradkowski (signed by Bengals).

 

So in the last 4 years we have actually signed two of the higher rated FA QBs......to include one currently on our roster but still, management decided Andy was better and signed him.

 

The talent needed to surpass Andy is most likely to be found in the 1st or 2nd round of the draft, NOT in FA unless Mike Brown has a stroke and starts throwing money around when the rare Brees or Manning is available.

 

Your options (besides Manning) would not have made us a better team the last 3 years or this year.

 

Smith played on GREAT teams in SF and was average.  He was dumped for a guy with 7 career starts.  His OLine last year in KC was excellent and the the CAP issue it caused lost him 3 of 5 Oline starters this year.  

 

You and scharm remind me of the Michael Jackson song in the Wiz.  "You can't win, You can't break even, and you can't get out of the game"!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPVpMxVn6mk

 

:lmao:

[scharm]

 

There was absolutely no reason to sign our backup left tackle to a starters contract, and the moment they drafted Hunt, one of MJ or Dunlap was designated to leave. How can people be so insanely dense that they can't understand this?

 

This is wrong.  Collins has starting ability at Left Tackle.  The entrenched starter has All-Pro ability at LT or LG.   The interior line is under question.   To say there was absolutely no reason is your lack of insight.

 

    

 

Not once has someone pointed out the number of new starting QBs who DIDN'T win an MVP or take their team to the playoffs or win a superbowl. Sure it CAN happen, but the vast majority of QB additions don't do shit. Like I've asked time and time and time and time again:

 

 

 

Doesn't matter.   The Qbs that had success were mentioned to refute the notion that there was "no alternative".     Your admission that it can a happen refutes it.   The listing of examples demonstrates frequency and possibility.

 

 

 

Show me a fucking team coming off two consecutive playoff berths who voluntarily changed QBs the next season... ANYONE?! 

This is not the conversation so don't get so angry.   The conversation is about identifying alternatives instead of signing Dalton to an extension this year.

 

I don't know how the conversation of voluntarily changing QBs is applicable.  Dalton is under contract this year and about 100 times I mentioned they could retain him with a franchise tag.    Which is true

 

Finding a Qb from the Free Agent market or trade happens to be an alternative.

[|Harley|]

I honestly think Jason Campbell is better than all those guys you mentioned in a backup role. Campbell has never played for a good team, or one with any coaching consistency dating back to his Auburn days until now.

 

Agreed. Rather have Campbell than these other guys.