Andy Dalton contract: Cincinnati Bengals should have waited

[Squirrlnutz]

San Francisco 2013,1991
Baltimore Ravens 2001
Minnesota Vikings 1972,1990,1994,1998.1999
Lions:1994
Oilers/Titan: 1993
Tampa Bay:1983,2001
St. Louis:1985,1986,2002
Eagles:1991, 2010

Clearly my rage post earlier had me off my game. You are the only one who has ever tried to respond to me.

So each one of these teams were coming off consecutive playoff berths and THEN in the off-season added a new QB because they were unsatisfied with the current one? None of them had the QB retire or his contract was up and they let him walk? I know a few of them went with guys already on their roster (Kapernick and Young) so that again misses the point...if you are getting to the playoffs the QB is doing his job and NFL teams dont abandon those QBs, if they want to change post season results they change coaches.

[|Harley|]

I have to think they would go all in on a rookie if Andy shits the bed ala Rivers when Bree's was there. Bree's did have an awful season that year. Pro bowl the next.

I would hope same old Andy would bring in competition at least. Hell it could be Mccarron. Salary cap is going up.

 

Agreed on the shit the bed scenario. It's a marginal year that scares me. If he only wins 8 games or so, misses the playoffs, or just doesn't look better would they simply stay the course because of the contract/upfront money and not doing anything dramatic in the draft? I'm hopeful we won't need to find out.

[|Harley|]

 

So we give MJ a 12.5 million dollar deal for his 2.5 sacks and pay Collins 9 million to ride the bench again.  Makes no sense

 

Give me Collins because he proved himself at LT. Whitworth's health scares me and they will need OL help. I think they were smart to let MJ walk.

[scharm]

Jake Plummer another Qb that was found by Broncos that was apart of 2 playoff teams, one reaching AFC Championship game.

 

That was 2005, so does that fit in the limited sample? 

[Squirrlnutz]

 

This is wrong.  Collins has starting ability at Left Tackle.  The entrenched starter has All-Pro ability at LT or LG.   The interior line is under question.   To say there was absolutely no reason is your lack of insight.

 

Yes Collins does have starting ability...for another team because we have a LT who gets paid like an LT and teams don't pay two LTs.  You can continue to move the roster around like its Madden but you're being disingenuous with how the team viewed its offensive line.  We have an LT they committed too, there wasn't a chance in hell they paid Collins starter money.  He had 5 years to earn the job and send Whitworth to guard.

 

 

Doesn't matter.   The Qbs that had success were mentioned to refute the notion that there was "no alternative".     Your admission that it can a happen refutes it.   The listing of examples demonstrates frequency and possibility.

 

Yes one soda bottle cap won a million dollars, better cash out that 401k and start buying soda so I can retire in style.  I suppose most teams should look to the 6th round for QBs since Tom Brady turned out so well.  Without a total number of QBs who changed teams and a gross estimation of success vs failure, the fact that a handful of teams won a superbowl with a QB they didn't draft means nothing, at least in the sense that you're peddling: "its happened once therefore its a good strategy for us to use."

 

 

 

I don't know how the conversation of voluntarily changing QBs is applicable.  Dalton is under contract this year and about 100 times I mentioned they could retain him with a franchise tag.    Which is true

 

Finding a Qb from the Free Agent market or trade happens to be an alternative.

 

 

Because it points out what you and everyone else is missing...the non-starter...the Bengals, like all other NFL teams, aren't/weren't looking for a new QB when the current one repeatedly gets them to the playoffs.  Once you understand that, everything else falls into place

[scharm]

 

Show me a fucking team coming off two consecutive playoff berths who voluntarily changed QBs the next season... ANYONE?! 

 

Pittsburgh Steelers.   1994 AFC Runner ups.  1995 AFC Champions - did not sign Neil O' Donnell to his contract demands.   They went with Kordell Stewart and were AFC Runner up in 1998.

 

1991/1992 Kansas City Chiefs - made the switch to Joe Montana via Free Agency.   AFC Runner Up in 1993.

 

2004/2005 Denver Broncos replaced Jake Plumer with draft pick Jay Cutler

 

2000 Ravens (one year but Superbowl champs) replaced Trent Dilfer with Elvis.  Divisional round.

[|schotzee|]

I think MJ overpriced himself. Dalton deal or not. Good riddance MJ. Thx for your years here but you won't be missed. Guenther says next man up.

[scharm]

 

Yes Collins does have starting ability...for another team because we have a LT who gets paid like an LT and teams don't pay two LTs. You can continue to move the roster around like its Madden but you're being disingenuous with how the team viewed its offensive line.

 

Ignoring the fact the team played Whitworth at Left guard before drafting Collins and recently during the last season is being disingenuous. 

 

We have an LT they committed too, there wasn't a chance in hell they paid Collins starter money. He had 5 years to earn the job and send Whitworth to guard.

 

 

They could have rented Collins with the franchise tag this year with no effect on future cap structure.  This would have paid him starter money for 1 season and reduced some of the issues we have seen in training camp.

 

Yes one soda bottle cap won a million dollars, better cash out that 401k and start buying soda so I can retire in style. I suppose most teams should look to the 6th round for QBs since Tom Brady turned out so well. Without a total number of QBs who changed teams and a gross estimation of success vs failure, the fact that a handful of teams won a superbowl with a QB they didn't draft means nothing, at least in the sense that you're peddling: "its happened once therefore its a good strategy for us to use."

 

 

Actually it does.   Your avoidance of facts means nothing.   Just like SF2 trying to start NFL free agency history from yesterday.  Your attempt to minimalize the frequency means nothing.    There are numerous examples of teams finding successful QB play in the Salary Cap era that have led them all the way to Superbowl championships.

 

 

Because it points out what you and everyone else is missing...the non-starter...the Bengals, like all other NFL teams, aren't/weren't looking for a new QB when the current one repeatedly gets them to the playoffs. Once you understand that, everything else falls into place

 

No one is assuming the Bengals were looking to replace Dalton.     Alternatives are being pointed out IF the Bengals would have waited.

 

The need to find a QB in free agency comes about if the Franchise Tag fails to extend Dalton's time with the Bengals.

[|SF2|]

 

It is your claim the Bengals had no alternative.   All you are doing is limiting the sample so your point of view can have more merit.   This does not strengthen your arguement it points out the weakness.

 

The Bengals are regulated by a system put in place since 1993.   Your attempt to limit this to a few years doesn't make it the norm or the reality for future years.

 

This is just 1 aspect of your point of view being incorrect.   As the Bengals still had the tag to use.  Still have Campbell.  Still have a 5th round Qb which extend the period of replacement beyond next offseason.

Your definition of alternative is FAR different than mine.  I actually believe any alternative at the QB position must be better than the current one.

 

I limit it to a FOUR years to explain that a BETTER alternative to a mid tiered QB doesn't come around often and in fact has been rather rare in RECENT history.  You respond by giving me a few names  to include quite a few PRE 1993 names.   You also completely ignore the fact that their are probably 15 other teams that might want that upper echelon FA.

 

The Bengals have taken 2 of the highest rated FA QBs the past 4 years.  One was so highly thought of (Grad) that at the age of 28(prime years for a QB) , he was beat out by a 2nd round rookie out of TCU.

 

The other, Campbell, a former first rounder, was given 1 red shirt year and 4 additional years to prove himself in Washington which he did not.   Washington thought so highly of him they replaced him with a broken down  Donovan McNabb and let him go via FA.   He has impressed our staff so much that we just signed Andy to a 6 year deal.  

 

Sorry but hoping that a franchise QB hits the market next year is NOT a strategy, its simply HOPE.

[|SF2|]

Clearly my rage post earlier had me off my game. You are the only one who has ever tried to respond to me.

So each one of these teams were coming off consecutive playoff berths and THEN in the off-season added a new QB because they were unsatisfied with the current one? None of them had the QB retire or his contract was up and they let him walk? I know a few of them went with guys already on their roster (Kapernick and Young) so that again misses the point...if you are getting to the playoffs the QB is doing his job and NFL teams dont abandon those QBs, if they want to change post season results they change coaches.

Yep.  There were cases of guys retiring (Marino and Tarkenton) which I did NOT include.  Sure, some probably had their contract expire (not sure)  but I I wasn't aware that was a condition of the search and the fact is they still let him walk.

[scharm]

Your definition of alternative is FAR different than mine.  I actually believe any alternative at the QB position must be better than the current one.

 

I limit it to a FOUR years to explain that a BETTER alternative to a mid tiered QB doesn't come around often and in fact has been rather rare in RECENT history.  You respond by giving me a few names  to include quite a few PRE 1993 names.   You also completely ignore the fact that their are probably 15 other teams that might want that upper echelon FA.

 

The Bengals have taken 2 of the highest rated FA QBs the past 4 years.  One was so highly thought of (Grad) that at the age of 28(prime years for a QB) , he was beat out by a 2nd round rookie out of TCU.

 

The other, Campbell, a former first rounder, was given 1 red shirt year and 4 additional years to prove himself in Washington which he did not.   Washington thought so highly of him they replaced him with a broken down  Donovan McNabb and let him go via FA.   He has impressed our staff so much that we just signed Andy to a 6 year deal.  

 

Sorry but hoping that a franchise QB hits the market next year is NOT a strategy, its simply HOPE.

 

You talked about the Bengals having no alternative initially.   An organization's on field goal is to win a Superbowl.   Your individual assessment of QBs being better than the other is invalid and not applicable.   The fact is teams have found QBs to play and have the team qualify for playoffs and more.

 

Your attempt at trying to limit the discussion to find a QB that must be better than Dalton points out the weakness in it.   Just like forcing me to name a QB available in August.   

 

In addition,  your attempt to limit the discussion to what you define as "recent history" is flawed because there is no reasoning to believe that represents the norm going forward.

 

Filling your QB spot outside the draft has happened frequently enough that it is alternative and strategy that NFL teams pursue during the offseason.    Claiming that is hope is a complete distortion of the reality of the NFL.

[Oldcat]

This thread is everything wrong with this board.  So much stupid and too much "madden" attitude towards team building.  There was absolutely no reason to sign our backup left tackle to a starters contract, and the moment they drafted Hunt, one of MJ or Dunlap was designated to leave.  How can people be so insanely dense that they can't understand this?

 

Not once has someone pointed out the number of new starting QBs who DIDN'T win an MVP or take their team to the playoffs or win a superbowl.  Sure it CAN happen, but the vast majority of QB additions don't do shit.  Like I've asked time and time and time and time again:

 

Show me a fucking team coming off two consecutive playoff berths who voluntarily changed QBs the next season...  ANYONE?!  

 

Additionally, the decision to extend a QB is based on his regular season performance, his playoff performance shapes the money.  Dalton earned a new contract already.

 

Cap Economics means we have to keep some inexpensive talent at any position like DE that requires depth.  To do that, you will not be able to afford to keep every player in a long term deal.  So when we had 3 DL to sign in a year or so, we pretty much knew we were keeping only 2.  Thus we tagged MJ, drafted Hunt, and signed the others.  And now we have drafted another DE, who is primed to replace Geathers if he works out.

[scharm]

1. Franchise tag invalid

2.Campbell does not have NFL starting experience

3. Campbell does not have experience with Hue Jackson

3. QBs drafted after round 4 have 0 chance to be productive starters

4. Accept that NFL free agency doesn't produce starting QB options

5. Accept that the team's goal is just to improve the QB position instead of playoff advancement

6. Ignore Peyton Manning and Alex Smith as recent examples.

 

 

If these things are true then the Bengals had no alternative to extend Dalton before this season.   

[|SF2|]

1. Franchise tag invalid

2.Campbell does not have NFL starting experience

3. Campbell does not have experience with Hue Jackson

3. QBs drafted after round 4 have 0 chance to be productive starters

4. Accept that NFL free agency doesn't produce starting QB options

5. Accept that the team's goal is just to improve the QB position instead of playoff advancement

6. Ignore Peyton Manning and Alex Smith as recent examples.

 

 

If these things are true then the Bengals had no alternative to extend Dalton before this season.   

Or just sign your mid tiered QB to a team friendly deal and move on to the next issue.  Seem a lot easier and safer than your route.  

[scharm]

Or just sign your mid tiered QB to a team friendly deal and move on to the next issue.  Seem a lot easier and safer than your route.  

 

If you ignore reality.  Dalton was already under contract it takes 0 effort to let him play that out and wait for an extension.   Not sure what's easier than that.

 

Focusing on an extension prematurely took cap room from retaining their free agents or exploring other improvements via free agency.   To claim that is easy is shortsighted and fits with your previous arguements that they had no alternatives.

[|SF2|]

Jake Plummer another Qb that was found by Broncos that was apart of 2 playoff teams, one reaching AFC Championship game.

 

That was 2005, so does that fit in the limited sample? 

Well,it was actually 2003 when they made the switch or 11 years ago but I will give you that one to add to your massive list.   BTW, Plummer was truly awful in Arizona with a 6 year QB rating of 69 but did well on an excellent team and organization.  Andy has been WAY better.   Pretty gutsy move by Denver but Griese was surrounded by talent on both sides of the ball yet missed the playoff two straight years.  Can't keep throwing to the other team.   

 

How many are we up to now?

 

Ignoring reality would be to pretend that a 2nd round rookie QB thrown into the fire day one on a totally dysfunctional 4-12 team didn't lead that team to the playoffs 3 straight years and sucks.  It will also require me to believe Campbell or Mccarron will be better than him....ever.   It also requires me to roll the dice and hope and pray a better QB will be available to start the season in 2015.

 

Also, I have already said Mccarron will never be anything more than a backup at best in this league. The REAL football minds know a good QB when they see one, hence the ease at which we picked up Campbell.  Hue knows he will be a good backup, better than Grad or Josh J, nothing more.

 

Nothing screams runaway in the NFL more than the third and second to last sentences.  Also, we throw a lot of deep outs, or we did.  Recipe for numerous pick 6's.

 

WEAKNESSES  AJ Mccarron

 Surrounded by an NFL-caliber supporting cast with a very good offensive line that provides a lot of time to dissect the field. Does not have a big-time, vertical arm. Average athlete. Makes occasional bone-headed decisions. Heaves the deep ball and forces receivers to make adjustments. Does not drive the deep out.

[|schotzee|]

As an unbiased spectator,_I have to give the advantage to scharm in this debate.

[|kennethmw|]

As an unbiased spectator,_I have to give the advantage to scharm in this debate.

FIFY! :D

[JC]

If we were offering Anthony Collins a comparable contract to the one he received from Tampa, which was reported, there was zero chance he was going to be a swing tackle and Whitworth was going to move to LG.

[|Montana Bengal|]

All things being 'equal' contract-wise, I'm pretty sure the tax situation in Florida swings things quite a bit.  In other words: Not really equal.

[|SF2|]

If we were offering Anthony Collins a comparable contract to the one he received from Tampa, which was reported, there was zero chance he was going to be a swing tackle and Whitworth was going to move to LG.

I have to agree with this.   I think you tag him and let MJ go just due to our lack of depth at tackle.   Not sure of the ramifications of doing this AND signing Andy, Taze and AJ capwise if that is the goal.

[B.A.B.]

As an unbiased spectator,_I have to give the advantage to scharm in this debate.

No shit. This dude just keeps trying to invalidate all the names he's giving him for bullshit reasons when the majority of them haven't shit the bed the way Andy has in the postseason. Like....we keep forgetting to bring that part up.

HE. SHITS. THE. BED.

In the playoffs that is. He's decent in the regular season. If you want to discredit everyone named by pointing at Andy's supreme irreplaceable skills, make sure you remember that they're being compared to someone who shits the bed in the playoffs in remarkable fashion.

[JC]

All things being 'equal' contract-wise, I'm pretty sure the tax situation in Florida swings things quite a bit.  In other words: Not really equal.

 

Regardless, if it was in the 5 year $30 million dollar range, or anywhere even remotely close, he was going to be part of the starting 22 and not sitting on the sidelines in case of injury.  You don't pay a guy $6 mil annually for insurance.

[|kennethmw|]

 

Regardless, if it was in the 5 year $30 million dollar range, or anywhere even remotely close, he was going to be part of the starting 22 and not sitting on the sidelines in case of injury.  You don't pay a guy $6 mil annually for insurance.

 

However, If I recall correctly, he said that one of the reasons he went to Tampa was because the Bengals would not guarantee him the starting LT position.

[HairOnFire]

Your attempt at trying to limit the discussion to find a QB that must be better than Dalton points out the weakness in it.   Just like forcing me to name a QB available in August.  

 

 

Not sure why you're so reluctant to name which Grbac you'd target.

 

By playing the field you aren't locked into any choice.

 

The moment someone better appears you can switch.

 

You can't call it an alternative plan unless it has a goal or target or name.

 

So if not Dalton, who dey?