What the hell is happening in Ferguson?

[Jamie_B]

also there are no human shields being used by Hamas that's propaganda

[Jamie_B]

you suggested that the percentage of black people that commit serious crimes is higher than the percentage of white people that commit serious crimes

to answer your question very directly I don't believe thatI believe it is probably likely similarand I am asking you for proof

[big_dish]

you suggested that the percentage of black people that commit serious crimes is higher than the percentage of white people that commit serious crimes

to answer your question very directly I don't believe thatI believe it is probably likely similarand I am asking you for proof

 

Here you go

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43

 

Run the numbers yourself. The white population accounts for nearly double the amount as black population for violent crime- but the white population is somewhere along the lines of 78% of the population, whereas blacks are only approx 13% of the population. To be considered even regarding violent crimes committed, whites should account for something like 5 times the amount of crimes.

 

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

[Nati Ice]

also there are no human shields being used by Hamas that's propaganda

Nah bro. It is a real tactic used by Hamas. However, its not as widespread as Fox News would lead you to believe

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y&app=desktop

 

So that's a you dont have any and are talking out of your ass?

Wouldn't be the first time.

 

you suggested that the percentage of black people that commit serious crimes is higher than the percentage of white people that commit serious crimes

to answer your question very directly I don't believe thatI believe it is probably likely similarand I am asking you for proof

 

This is extremely easily confirmed, but this does not effect this singular incident. Nor is it necessarily relevant information.

[big_dish]

Nah bro. It is a real tactic used by Hamas. However, its not as widespread as Fox News would lead you to believe

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y&app=desktop

 

 

 

This is extremely easily confirmed, but this does not effect this singular incident. Nor is it necessarily relevant information.

To this incident, you are correct. This was more in response to the overarching narrative Jaime and Kenneth and whomever else tries to construct to protect violent criminals all the time and act as if nothing is going on, and as if police just target blacks purely based on their skin color. Violent crime is going on at an alarmingly high rate in the AA community, and it will never begin to correct itself until the enablers become a voice of pressure to stop it. We all know those who already loudly oppose violent crime arent changing much (they are often called racists, when in fact it is realistic to current crime stats), even though crime numbers are slightly down.

 

And yes, human shields- it is a real tactic. However, there are people like Jaime who will refuse to believe anything that doesnt fit his extreme left views. There is  grey in between black and white, but Jaime never sees it. As far as I'm concerned, human shields and the very fact that are many innocent people in the areas are the exact reason Israel shouldnt be bombing like that in the first place.

[Jamie_B]

Im pretty sure im not the one trying to paint a narrative here.

[Nati Ice]

To this incident, you are correct. This was more in response to the overarching narrative Jaime and Kenneth and whomever else tries to construct to protect violent criminals all the time and act as if nothing is going on, and as if police just target blacks purely based on their skin color. Violent crime is going on at an alarmingly high rate in the AA community, and it will never begin to correct itself until the enablers become a voice of pressure to stop it. We all know those who already loudly oppose violent crime arent changing much (they are often called racists, when in fact it is realistic to current crime stats), even though crime numbers are slightly down.

The first step in the 12 step program for recovery is to admit there is a problem.

 

Clearly minorities are targeted more often then Caucasians, however this rate of targeting (racism, if you will) quite clearly does not constitute the entire discrepancy for statistically verifiable crimes committed by African-American males.

 

Next point.

 

Lets be honest here. We have video of this kid committing actions consistent with a violent crime. He is not some purely innocent angel. Additionally, the information we currently have suggests that he did not deserve to die and that the local yokel police dept. may be criminally incompetent, tyrannical, and racist.

[MichaelWeston]

The first step in the 12 step program for recovery is to admit there is a problem.
 
Clearly minorities are targeted more often then Caucasians, however this rate of targeting (racism, if you will) quite clearly does not constitute the entire discrepancy for statistically verifiable crimes committed by African-American males.
 
Next point.
 
Lets be honest here. We have video of this kid committing actions consistent with a violent crime. He is not some purely innocent angel. Additionally, the information we currently have suggests that he did not deserve to die and that the local yokel police may be criminally incompetent, tyrannical, and racist.

Not sure you can say racist. There isn't anything to say he shot him because he was black.

[Nati Ice]

Not sure you can say racist. There isn't anything to say he shot him because he was black.

I wasn't suggesting that the police department may be racist because he was possibly shot because he was black. Look at the systematic targeting trends in this locality. Minorities are targeted at a higher rate than Caucasians and are statistically less likely to commit a crime. That is damn near the definition of racism.

[Nati Ice]

Until more information becomes available this is all just mental masturbation. Lets talk about the real issues. WTF is up with escalation of force laws, the militarization of the police, and the general incompetence and targeting by this specific locality's police department?

 

The aiming of weapons at protestors.

 

The gross and obvious incompetence of this police chief.

 

The heavy-handed attempts at curtailing protests through the use of intimidation.

 

 

This should raise eyebrows.

[Rumble In the Jungle]

 

Rumble, it's not about the looting, it's about the second class citizen thing.  You should realize, since they label you as one as well.

 

I know Kenny. Sorry I made a bad joke. But the truth is this shit is never gonna stop. It's the world we live in. 

[|kennethmw|]

I know Kenny. Sorry I made a bad joke. But the truth is this shit is never gonna stop. It's the world we live in.

But it shouldn't be that way.

[|kennethmw|]

Im pretty sure im not the one trying to paint a narrative here.

I'm pretty sure you aren't either. However, reality is often distorted by the views of the beholder.

[T-Dub]

T-dub, I am sorry I started a thread that got you in a circular discussion with Weston. As I can see from the number of ignored posts, he has taken over this thread. My suggestion would be to ignore him, and have discussions with the people on here that are truly interested in discussing this. Weston is not one of those people.

 

Nah, it's my own fault for responding.  I've read enough of his posts to know his MO.  IDK what's up lately with the weird glib little Johnnie Cochran-ish attempts to paint people into a corner in order to have their triumphant "AHA!" moment but it seems to be contagious.

[big_dish]

Until more information becomes available this is all just mental masturbation. Lets talk about the real issues. WTF is up with escalation of force laws, the militarization of the police, and the general incompetence and targeting by this specific locality's police department?

 

The aiming of weapons at protestors.

 

The gross and obvious incompetence of this police chief.

 

The heavy-handed attempts at curtailing protests through the use of intimidation.

 

 

This should raise eyebrows.

 

This is all true..

and the militarization of police is very alarming.

Im pretty sure im not the one trying to paint a narrative here.

Well you manage to follow narratives pretty well.

I'm pretty sure you aren't either. However, reality is often distorted by the views of the beholder.

This is true. Are you willing to admit this about yourself?

[T-Dub]

 

This is all true..

and the militarization of police is very alarming.

 

 

It is, indeed, but I'm inclined to look at it as a militarization of this country as a whole.  IDK if it's just  that we've been at war for the last 15 years or what but there are an awful lot of people who want to play soldier but aren't willing/able to actually enlist.  So instead we get kooks like the ones that turned up at the Bundy ranch.  We've got people who think being able to take military-grade weapons into a Chipotle is important so I can kind of understand why cops are wanting to upgrade their armories as well.

 

End result being a population in an arms race with itself for no particular good reason.  The fine people at Colt Firearms thank you for your support.

[Jamie_B]

 

This is all true..

and the militarization of police is very alarming.

Well you manage to follow narratives pretty well.

This is true. Are you willing to admit this about yourself?

 

 

Actually I don't, its why I don't follow yours

[MichaelWeston]

I wasn't suggesting that the police department may be racist because he was possibly shot because he was black. Look at the systematic targeting trends in this locality. Minorities are targeted at a higher rate than Caucasians and are statistically less likely to commit a crime. That is damn near the definition of racism.

 

Minorities are targeted because they commit more crimes on average. Find me a statistics that says out of 1000 people or what not, BLANK % have committed a crime and break it down by race. I can guarantee you it's more minorities than whites.

[MichaelWeston]

Until more information becomes available this is all just mental masturbation. Lets talk about the real issues. WTF is up with escalation of force laws, the militarization of the police, and the general incompetence and targeting by this specific locality's police department?

 

The aiming of weapons at protestors.

 

The gross and obvious incompetence of this police chief.

 

The heavy-handed attempts at curtailing protests through the use of intimidation.

 

 

This should raise eyebrows.

 

Do you have evidence to back those things up? I have not seen them and they seem like sensationalized stuff.

 

As far as the militarization goes, I agree it SEEMS alarming, but if you have a rioting population what do you want them to have to put down the riot?

[big_dish]

 

 

It is, indeed, but I'm inclined to look at it as a militarization of this country as a whole.  IDK if it's just  that we've been at war for the last 15 years or what but there are an awful lot of people who want to play soldier but aren't willing/able to actually enlist.  So instead we get kooks like the ones that turned up at the Bundy ranch.  We've got people who think being able to take military-grade weapons into a Chipotle is important so I can kind of understand why cops are wanting to upgrade their armories as well.

 

End result being a population in an arms race with itself for no particular good reason.  The fine people at Colt Firearms thank you for your support.

 

I'm about as pro second amendment as you can be, and those people that bring long rifles into Chipotle,or Target, or wherever really piss me off to no ends. Its the most asinine exercise from the biggest Dungeons and Dragons goobers I've ever seen. I am 100% for CCW and law abiding citizens being armed- but if some dudes come walking into a store with rifles, I'm not going to be comfortable.

[T-Dub]

if some dudes come walking into a store with rifles, I'm not going to be comfortable.

 

 

Only a matter of time until this exact scenario results in a shooting

[Nati Ice]

 

Minorities are targeted because they commit more crimes on average. Find me a statistics that says out of 1000 people or what not, BLANK % have committed a crime and break it down by race. I can guarantee you it's more minorities than whites.

Which is something I had quite clearly acknowledged. Seriously. Scroll up.

 

However, in this specific locality the targeting of African-Americans is statistically abnormal. The rate in which they are stopped is much higher than the rate of crimes for their race and locality. That is all I said and it is 100% accurate.

 

 

Do you have evidence to back those things up? I have not seen them and they seem like sensationalized stuff.

 

As far as the militarization goes, I agree it SEEMS alarming, but if you have a rioting population what do you want them to have to put down the riot?

Do I have any evidence of what? That the police chief is incompetent? That seems evident. That the local police force raised their weapons at the protesters? That takes .01 seconds on Google or turning on your tv. That the local and county police tried to curtail the rioting through intimidation? Also quite evident.

 

I'm not going to waste my time linking you to the obvious. The specific claims I made are largely indisputable in this instance.

 

 

As far as curtailing rioters goes... the governor removed the local and county PD's and replaced them with state level forces who chose to spend their time talking with the populace and being relatable rather than arriving kitted up like they've reached the final level in COD and that seemed to work pretty damn well.

[MichaelWeston]

Which is something I had quite clearly acknowledged. Seriously. Scroll up.

 

However, in this specific locality the targeting of African-Americans is statistically abnormal. The rate in which they are stopped is much higher than the rate of crimes for their race and locality. That is all I said and it is 100% accurate.

 

Do I have any evidence of what? That the police chief is incompetent? That seems evident. That the local police force raised their weapons at the protesters? That takes .01 seconds on Google or turning on your tv. That the local and county police tried to curtail the rioting through intimidation? Also quite evident.

 

I'm not going to waste my time linking you to the obvious. The specific claims I made are largely indisputable in this instance.

 

 

As far as curtailing rioters goes... the governor removed the local and county PD's and replaced them with state level forces who chose to spend their time talking with the populace and being relatable rather than arriving kitted up like they've reached the final level in COD and that seemed to work pretty damn well.

People say things seem evident when they don't have the evidence. I have not read anything outside of a lone cop shooting a criminal who was running away....which is awful....that says there was incompetence going on here. A police chief can't be held accountable for one incident like this. If there is a series that I have not seen than show me. I have not seen that the police raised their guns at the protestors. Maybe they did. Post a link. The police tried to curtail it through intimidation, sure. Are you telling me that they should have met molotov cocktails with open discussion?  I want my police safe, some idiot throwing a molotov cocktail, I honestly don't care what happens to him.

 

If it's so obvious it shouldn't take you much time to link to it.

 

It worked well, but you don't know if that's the rioters calming down or the approach from the police. My questions is are you blaming the riots on the presence of the militarized police?

[Nati Ice]

People say things seem evident when they don't have the evidence. I have not read anything outside of a lone cop shooting a criminal who was running away....which is awful....that says there was incompetence going on here. A police chief can't be held accountable for one incident like this. If there is a series that I have not seen than show me. I have not seen that the police raised their guns at the protestors. Maybe they did. Post a link. The police tried to curtail it through intimidation, sure. Are you telling me that they should have met molotov cocktails with open discussion?  I want my police safe, some idiot throwing a molotov cocktail, I honestly don't care what happens to him.

 

If it's so obvious it shouldn't take you much time to link to it.

 

It worked well, but you don't know if that's the rioters calming down or the approach from the police. My questions is are you blaming the riots on the presence of the militarized police?

I'm largely talking about mismanagement and the lack of planned dissemination of information by the police chief. The actions after the event, if you will. If you want to talk about gross incompetence occurring by that police department prior to these events I would point to everything from the statistics that show their excess targeting of African-Americans to the fact that they do not have video cameras in their cars simply because they didn't budget for the installation fees while asking for bids (something that is included in standard bids). I stated that the incompetence of this police chief and the local and county departments are evident because of the overwhelming evidence against them. If you cannot see that then perhaps it is willful. Because it has been apparent to everyone from casual observers, to the replacement captain, to the governor of the state.

 

 

One of the many wannabe badasses leveling their weapons and peaceful protesters (note the time of day in this image).

 

 

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/08/ferguson-protests-0

 

That took 2 seconds on google. You literally could have just googled what you wanted evidence of and had it quicker than asking me to do it for you. There are plenty of other cases of these actions out there and that goes without mentioning the assault and detention of the two reporters in the McDonald's or the trashing of Al Jazeera America's equipment.

 

Since you have such a hard on for this, how about you show me one shred of evidence that Furguson PD was assaulted with molotov cocktails. Word to the wise, you won't find any examples from reputable sources because it did not happen. The rioters used a molotov cocktail to burn down a Domino's. Which is obviously despicable.

 

Stop try to twist anything that has been said here. This is not an either or scenario. Just because local police appear incompetent does not mean that they are the only ones to blame for the rioting. However, their response to the event, and to the gathering of people following the event, did absolutely nothing to curtail rioting and appears to have helped incite it. The heavy handedness for which the local and county police responded is very clear and should concern average citizens.

 

EDIT: There were no molotov cocktails being thrown until late last night. Something I obviously was not speaking to prior to that. You're skewing the hell out of the evidence to meet your narrative. The police and the rioters can be criticized simultaneously. This is more nuanced than one side good, one side bad.

[Rumble In the Jungle]

Was this kid an Angel? Fuck no.

 

Was shooting him to kill him necessary? Fuck no.

 

Is looting a bad reflection on the good peaceful supporters? Yes but they need to get police and regulate that shit and throw those fuckers in jail for a long time. 

 

Also why couldn't that cop or cops in general when they shoot someone to shoot him in the leg or something? Why shoot to kill? Why not have rubber bullets so the fucker can just go down but not die?