Ben vs Carson

[Vis Major]

You guys are obsessed with Pittsburgh's QB. Your guy doesn't suck (for the first time in ages). Still, to believed that Carson was better last year than the Steelers' rookie is delusional.

Tell me, except for the fact that Palmer had his number called more often than Roethlisberger, how was he better?

Ben wins yards per attempt (8.88 to 6.71), comp % (66.4 to 60.9) and rating (98.1 to 77.3)
Ben had 1 less td (17 to 18) but 7 fewer interceptions (11 to 18)

Another way to compare QB's is by their DPAR, or Defense-adjusted Points Above Replacement. This number represents the total number of points scored due to plays where this QB passed or carried the ball, compared to a replacement-level QB in the same game situations.

Still another is DVOA, or Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. This number represents value, per play, over an average QB in the same game situations. The more positive the DVOA rating, the better the player's performance.

The simple version: DPAR means a quarterback with more total value. DVOA means a quarterback with more value per play.

Ben: DPAR - 75.3 (10th best in league)
DVOA - 40.3% (3rd best in league)

Carson: DPAR - 39.0 (15th best in league)
DVOA - 7.2% (15th best in league)

Again, how is Palmer better?

[JC]

[quote name='Vis Major' date='Jul 24 2005, 03:40 PM']You guys are obsessed with Pittsburgh's QB.  Your guy doesn't suck (for the first time in ages).  Still, to believed that Carson was better last year than the Steelers' rookie is delusional.

Tell me, except for the fact that Palmer had his number called more often than Roethlisberger, how was he better?

Ben wins yards per attempt (8.88 to 6.71), comp % (66.4 to 60.9) and rating (98.1 to 77.3)
Ben had 1 less td (17 to 18) but 7 fewer interceptions (11 to 18)

Another way to compare QB's is by their DPAR, or Defense-adjusted Points Above Replacement. This number represents the total number of points scored due to plays where this QB passed or carried the ball, compared to a replacement-level QB in the same game situations.

Still another is DVOA, or Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. This number represents value, per play, over an average QB in the same game situations. The more positive the DVOA rating, the better the player's performance.

The simple version: DPAR means a quarterback with more total value. DVOA means a quarterback with more value per play.

Ben: DPAR - 75.3 (10th best in league)
DVOA - 40.3% (3rd best in league)

Carson: DPAR - 39.0 (15th best in league)
DVOA - 7.2% (15th best in league)

Again, how is Palmer better?
[right][post="118627"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


Because carson can throw a spiral

and he had more passing yards and touchdowns

You didnt put in passing yards

Carson-2897

Benni-2621

and more completions to...jeez how can you forget those

I also forgot to add that carson has a better teacher in marvin lewis so in the long run he will be better

(waits to see if a steeler fan makes a mistake and disses marvin)

[Guest #22]

Compare each of their last 5 or six stats.
How do you find the DVOA and DPAR. Are there websites that do it?

[Vis Major]

[quote name='Palmerforpresident9' date='Jul 24 2005, 04:47 PM']Because carson can throw a spiral

and he had more passing yards and touchdowns

You didnt put in passing yards

Carson-2897

Benni-2621

and more completions to...jeez how can you forget those
[right][post="118632"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

I'll take this as a white flag post. I put in the touchdowns. Look at the # of attempts. Total yards means nothing. Yards per attempt does. Every time Ben dropped back he was more likely to complete the pass and for more yards. Not Ben's fault he wasn't behind as often as Palmer.

[Vis Major]

[quote name='#22' date='Jul 24 2005, 04:49 PM']Compare each of their last 5 or six stats.
How do you find the DVOA and DPAR. Are there websites that do it?
[right][post="118633"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Here's where I got them along with the explanations:
[url="http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb.php"]http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb.php[/url]

[Guest #22]

Thanks, I think this a good gauge.

I don't think anyone will say Carson had a better season, but his last several games before the crippling were amazing. I saw a steady progression in Palmer's play throughout the season, which I really did not see in Roethlisberger.

I would just assume both of them have HOF careers, especially if they got HOF numbers against the Turds and the Ratbirds.

edit: Ben is kind of acting like a dick in all of his recent interviews, though.

[Ben]

[quote name='Vis Major' date='Jul 24 2005, 03:58 PM']Not Ben's fault he wasn't behind as often as Palmer.
[right][post="118635"][/post][/right][/quote]

Cant really argue that.... THough in the long run I think it helped palmer... If Ben had been in more situation where the game was on his shoulders and he had to pass 30 time ina game, you think he would have been better prepared later int he year? especially playoff time?

[TheWretchedMass]

I'm sick a steeler fans turning this shit int a Carson/Ben thread, its annoying, its redundanted and it's pointless.

No one is trying to argure who was better (maybe some, but not I) I am simply trying to offer some evidence that Ben was way overhyped and overrated, but you can't get it out of your head that I am comparing the two.

[Vis Major]

[quote name='TheWretchedMass' date='Jul 24 2005, 05:52 PM']I'm sick a steeler fans turning this shit int a Carson/Ben thread, its annoying, its redundanted and it's pointless.

No one is trying to argure who was better (maybe some, but not I) I am simply trying to offer some evidence that Ben was way overhyped and overrated, but you can't get it out of your head that I am comparing the two.
[right][post="118648"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Yeah, by the hype and rating you'd think he had the best rookie season by a QB ever...

[Southern Steeler]

[quote name='Ben' date='Jul 24 2005, 04:45 PM']Cant really argue that.... THough in the long run I think it helped palmer...   If Ben had  been in more situation where the game was on his shoulders and he had to pass 30 time ina  game, you think he would  have been better prepared later int he year?  especially playoff time?
[right][post="118644"][/post][/right][/quote]


Good point......thus the benefit of having a better overall team around him. We just have to hope that the AFCC game was a valuable learning experience for him.

I happen to think that Carson Palmer is going to be a stellar QB in this league, as will Ben. Hiring Marvin Lewis was the best move your sorry ass owner has made in ..........well, ever. Cincy will be a force, no doubt.

BUT.........the Steelers are the team that everyone else in the North division WANTS TO BE.

Simple fact is this......when the Bengals and Steelers play, we expect to win. You guys HOPE to win.

Huge difference

[TheWretchedMass]

God that is so funny.

You expect to win against us? Were you singing this tune in 2003 in the second meeting between the teams.

Heres a re-cap: From a steeler site nonetheless.

It's all over now. The shred of playoff hope that the Steelers were clinging on to was destroyed in brutal fashion today at Heinz Field. This game was sickening, and it shows just how far the Steelers have fallen.

The Steelers could do nothing right in the first half. Chad Scott got smoked twice, once on a 51 yards pass from Jon Kitna to Kelley Washington, then again on a 4 yard pass from Kitna to Chad Johnson. The Bengals were doing everything right, even running the ball successfully. Meanwhile, the Steeler offense looked putrid like last week. On their best drive (which came near halftime), they got inside the Bengals 5 only to see Randle El drop a TD pass and Charlie Batch (who temporarily replaced an injured Tommy Maddox) fumble the ball away. Cincinnati held a commanding 14-3 lead at halftime.

The Steelers had their backs against the wall yet again, but they came out a different team in the second half. They put together a 75 yard drive, but found themselves facing 4th and goal from the Cincy one yard line. Jerome Bettis pounded it thru, going over 12,000 career yards at the same time, cutting the lead to 14-10. The two teams traded field goals in the 4th quarter, and the Steelers had one chance to put together a drive in the final minutes. Down by 4, the offense had to score a touchdown, and they did it in dramatic fashion. Maddox led an 80 yard, 11 play drive in which he spread the ball around to all of his receivers. But the real star of the drive was Hines Ward, who has more heart than the rest of this pitiful team put together. Ward got kneed in the spine early in the drive, but stayed in to catch several key passes. He was hobbling around the field, but still managed to get open enough to catch a 16 yard TD pass with just 65 seconds remaining, putting the Steelers ahead by three! It was the drama that the Steelers had lacked all year. Maybe this would miraculously turn their season around. All they had to do was stop Kitna and the Bengals. I thought at worst they would maybe get into FG range and send the game into overtime. I never imagined that the defense would lay down, play dead, and show absolutely zero heart whatsoever. It only took the Bengals 4 plays - yes, 4 plays - to drive 52 yards down the field and win the game on an 18 yard TD pass with just 13 seconds remaining. What a complete joke.

I am sick of football. This season has been nothing but disappointment (I won't even go into my disgust over the Pitt game last night as the Steelers have provided sufficient frustration for everyone). I try not to care anymore, but this could have been huge. The Bengals came in to Pittsburgh wanting to take the torch away from the Steelers, and we had a chance to tell them it wouldn't be that easy. But then the defense remembered what a bunch of sorry-ass losers they are. They remembered how they can't make one single clutch play, even when the entire season is on the line. They let us fans down again and again and again and again. There is no more pride left in Steeler football, because the defense was always the source of that pride. I hate this team so much right now. I can understand when a team like the Penguins lose constantly, because they are young and in a rebuilding phase. But Mr. Rooney invested a lot of money in guys like Gildon, Porter, Scott, Smith, ect. And how do they earn their money? By letting Jon Freaking Kitna drive down the field in FOUR FREAKING PLAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!! If they each take about 500 grand out of their salaries to give us fans our money back, then maybe, just maybe, I will begin to forgive them. Otherwise they can all go to hell, because I am personally done sitting in the frigid cold or rain to watch this CRAP. Here are the numbers:

Cause if thats what you were singing you probably sounded like the most tone-deaf person on earth.

[JC]

[quote name='Vis Major' date='Jul 24 2005, 03:58 PM']I'll take this as a white flag post.  I put in the touchdowns.  Look at the # of attempts.  Total yards means nothing.  Yards per attempt does.  Every time Ben dropped back he was more likely to complete the pass and for more yards.  Not Ben's fault he wasn't behind as often as Palmer.
[right][post="118635"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
I didnt think they had white towels in pittsburgh...i always thought they were yellow

[Vis Major]

[quote name='TheWretchedMass' date='Jul 24 2005, 06:57 PM']God that is so funny.

You expect to win against us? Were you singing this tune in 2003 in the second meeting between the teams.

Heres a re-cap: From a steeler site nonetheless.

It's all over now. The shred of playoff hope that the Steelers were clinging on to was destroyed in brutal fashion today at Heinz Field. This game was sickening, and it shows just how far the Steelers have fallen.

The Steelers could do nothing right in the first half. Chad Scott got smoked twice, once on a 51 yards pass from Jon Kitna to Kelley Washington, then again on a 4 yard pass from Kitna to Chad Johnson. The Bengals were doing everything right, even running the ball successfully. Meanwhile, the Steeler offense looked putrid like last week. On their best drive (which came near halftime), they got inside the Bengals 5 only to see Randle El drop a TD pass and Charlie Batch (who temporarily replaced an injured Tommy Maddox) fumble the ball away. Cincinnati held a commanding 14-3 lead at halftime.

The Steelers had their backs against the wall yet again, but they came out a different team in the second half. They put together a 75 yard drive, but found themselves facing 4th and goal from the Cincy one yard line. Jerome Bettis pounded it thru, going over 12,000 career yards at the same time, cutting the lead to 14-10. The two teams traded field goals in the 4th quarter, and the Steelers had one chance to put together a drive in the final minutes. Down by 4, the offense had to score a touchdown, and they did it in dramatic fashion. Maddox led an 80 yard, 11 play drive in which he spread the ball around to all of his receivers. But the real star of the drive was Hines Ward, who has more heart than the rest of this pitiful team put together. Ward got kneed in the spine early in the drive, but stayed in to catch several key passes. He was hobbling around the field, but still managed to get open enough to catch a 16 yard TD pass with just 65 seconds remaining, putting the Steelers ahead by three! It was the drama that the Steelers had lacked all year. Maybe this would miraculously turn their season around. All they had to do was stop Kitna and the Bengals. I thought at worst they would maybe get into FG range and send the game into overtime. I never imagined that the defense would lay down, play dead, and show absolutely zero heart whatsoever. It only took the Bengals 4 plays - yes, 4 plays - to drive 52 yards down the field and win the game on an 18 yard TD pass with just 13 seconds remaining. What a complete joke.

I am sick of football. This season has been nothing but disappointment (I won't even go into my disgust over the Pitt game last night as the Steelers have provided sufficient frustration for everyone). I try not to care anymore, but this could have been huge. The Bengals came in to Pittsburgh wanting to take the torch away from the Steelers, and we had a chance to tell them it wouldn't be that easy. But then the defense remembered what a bunch of sorry-ass losers they are. They remembered how they can't make one single clutch play, even when the entire season is on the line. They let us fans down again and again and again and again. There is no more pride left in Steeler football, because the defense was always the source of that pride. I hate this team so much right now. I can understand when a team like the Penguins lose constantly, because they are young and in a rebuilding phase. But Mr. Rooney invested a lot of money in guys like Gildon, Porter, Scott, Smith, ect. And how do they earn their money? By letting Jon Freaking Kitna drive down the field in FOUR FREAKING PLAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!! If they each take about 500 grand out of their salaries to give us fans our money back, then maybe, just maybe, I will begin to forgive them. Otherwise they can all go to hell, because I am personally done sitting in the frigid cold or rain to watch this CRAP. Here are the numbers:

Cause if thats what you were singing you probably sounded like the most tone-deaf person on earth.
[right][post="118658"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Relax, wretch. Bengals aren't the laughingstock of the league anymore. They aren't the class of the AFC North either.

[Nati Ice]

[quote name='Palmerforpresident9' date='Jul 24 2005, 06:11 PM']I didnt think they had white towels in pittsburgh...i always thought they were yellow
[right][post="118660"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
the correct term is "pissed-stained"

[Vis Major]

[quote name='Palmerforpresident9' date='Jul 24 2005, 07:11 PM']I didnt think they had white towels in pittsburgh...i always thought they were yellow
[right][post="118660"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Bwahahahaha. Did you write that? Classic. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/30.gif[/img]

[JC]

[quote name='Southern Steeler' date='Jul 24 2005, 05:17 PM']Good point......thus the benefit of having a better overall team around him.  We just have to hope that the AFCC game was a valuable learning experience for him.

I happen to think that Carson Palmer is going to be a stellar QB in this league, as will Ben.  Hiring Marvin Lewis was the best move your sorry ass owner has made in ..........well, ever.  Cincy will be a force, no doubt. 

BUT.........the Steelers are the team that everyone else in the North division WANTS TO BE.

Simple fact is this......when the Bengals and Steelers play, we expect to win.  You guys HOPE to win.

Huge difference
[right][post="118651"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


when you become the best team in your state come back and talk to us

until then...work on becoming the best team in your state

[Guest Diamond Dave]

[quote name='TheWretchedMass' date='Jul 24 2005, 06:57 PM']God that is so funny.

You expect to win against us? Were you singing this tune in 2003 in the second meeting between the teams.[/quote]

2003? That's the best you can come up with? No, seriously...2003?

As for your article, how about if I go dig up some stuff from Mike Brown Sucks and tack it to your forehead?

[JC]

[quote name='Diamond Dave' date='Jul 24 2005, 06:18 PM']2003? That's the best you can come up with? No, seriously...2003?
[right][post="118666"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
We used to have a guy named big dave

any relation?

[Guest Diamond Dave]

[quote name='Palmerforpresident9' date='Jul 24 2005, 07:16 PM']when you become the best team in your state come back and talk to us

until then...work on becoming the best team in your state
[right][post="118664"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


Umm...

Steelers, better record than the Eagles and won the head to head match up.


You were saying?

[Guest Diamond Dave]

[quote name='Palmerforpresident9' date='Jul 24 2005, 07:21 PM']We used to have a guy named big dave

any relation?
[right][post="118667"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


Yes. I'm related to every other guy named Dave.

[TheWretchedMass]

Keep on thinkin' we don't have a chance, it will only be that much sweeter when we woop your ass for the AFCN Divisional Title.

Oh and that dude said they don't hope to beat us the expect to beat us. Used more as an example to show how idiotic that comment was. But I did notice (like most of your steeler buddies) you only picked out what you wanted from the post instead of commenting on the whole thing...

Did you read the rest and relive that horrible memory of being beaten by Cincinnati, if not, you'll have fresh ones of Pollack making Ben eat dirt 4 times a game this year...

[bengaldee]

Ben had a healthy line last year, which helped with your passing and opened up your running game.Palmer had his line hurt almost all year and when they were some what healthy he exploded and had great numbers.Hell Ben couldn't come back from being down 21 points.He showed what he could do under pressure and what happened.You guys got to watch the superbowl at home.With our line being healthy this year , watch out for Palmer he will show why he was our number one pick.Yes Ben had a great year and yes you were in the playoffs ,but we will see if he can have that kind of a year this year.Who Dey and In Marvin We Trust

[Guest mongoloido]

I think Carson did more last year with less. He didn't have the two headed running game or the monster defense. I think more was asked of him than of Ben. I think Ben did a great job of managing games, but not a great job of going out and winning games. Not his fault really, he wasn't asked to win many games. It will take time for him.

Carson had to go win games from the start because our defense forced that on him. He struggled early, then showed game management skills against Dallas and Washington. After having a good half against you Steelers, he looked pretty crappy in the fourth quarter. After that last stumble though (against your great defense), Carson played lights out football against Cleveland, Baltimore, and New England (until that damn injury). He kept us in games early and won those games for us late.


Ultimately, I think Carson had the better year. The Steelers had a fantastic year, but I think Carson learned the NFL game and has proven capable of putting the team on his shoulder and winning. I believe Steelers players and fans still have to be holding their breath a little to see if Ben has that ability. I suspect he does, but I think he still needs to show it.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='mongoloido' date='Jul 24 2005, 10:56 PM']I think Carson did more last year with less. He didn't have the two headed running game or the monster defense. I think more was asked of him than of Ben. I think Ben did a great job of managing games, but not a great job of going out and winning games. Not his fault really, he wasn't asked to win many games. It will take time for him.

Carson had to go win games from the start because our defense forced that on him. He struggled early, then showed game management skills against Dallas and Washington. After having a good half against you Steelers, he looked pretty crappy in the fourth quarter. After that last stumble though (against your great defense), Carson played lights out football against Cleveland, Baltimore, and New England (until that damn injury). He kept us in games early and won those games for us late.
Ultimately, I think Carson had the better year. The Steelers had a fantastic year, but I think Carson learned the NFL game and has proven capable of putting the team on his shoulder and winning. I believe Steelers players and fans still have to be holding their breath a little to see if Ben has that ability. I suspect he does, but I think he still needs to show it.
[right][post="118844"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
There is simply no way anyone in their right mind can possibly argue with this honest, truthful assessment.
Ben isn't a BAD QB....
BUT he was really never REQUIRED to win games with his arm. And when he was, the Steelers lost, especially when it mattered most. You won't hear any argument from me that the Steelers aren't a very good TEAM. They are. In fact, they are the reigning AFC North Champs. I certainly don't think you'll repeat your record from last year, and if you do, you're insane.
Advantage, Carson, for sheer learning experience.
And as someone else posted before, apparently Ben is reading all of your press up there, living the life and sucking down pink drinks in floozy-ridden clubs while his Plaxico-inspired gangsta bling drapes all over his sorry ass...I am currently enjoying a fantasy where Ben gets busted for DUI in midseason.....And I honestly don't think that's a stretch, given what I can glean from his recent behavior....I think you guys have an attitude/potential Rosenhaus client type thing brewing over yonder.....

[dieselman44]

[quote name='Southern Steeler' date='Jul 24 2005, 06:17 PM']Good point......thus the benefit of having a better overall team around him.  We just have to hope that the AFCC game was a valuable learning experience for him.

I happen to think that Carson Palmer is going to be a stellar QB in this league, as will Ben.  Hiring Marvin Lewis was the best move your sorry ass owner has made in ..........well, ever.  Cincy will be a force, no doubt. 

BUT.........the Steelers are the team that everyone else in the North division WANTS TO BE.

Simple fact is this......when the Bengals and Steelers play, we expect to win.  You guys HOPE to win.

Huge difference
[right][post="118651"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]




i dont want to be old