Jump to content

Guns in America


MichaelWeston

Recommended Posts

While I really don't see the need for gun violence research, I also do not see the need to ban it. 

To me it's common sense... if there is a gun in the home and someone wants to commit suicide or homicide... they're going to use the gun if they can for the most part.

Why spend millions of dollars to something that is common sense?

 

Once again... if they enforced existing gun laws and mental health institutions weren't so woefully staffed AND underfunded... that information we would get from them would make any study a moot point.

 

Only way to really address this issue is to ban the NRA and also ban those against the 2nd Amendment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites



Only way to really address this issue is to ban the NRA and also ban those against the 2nd Amendment.


Ooookay... :huh:

Glad I already banned myself. You do realize that the framers of the Constitution put a mechanism in place for repealing amendments, including the 2nd, right?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Elflocko said:

 


Ooookay... :huh:

Glad I already banned myself. You do realize that the framers of the Constitution put a mechanism in place for repealing amendments, including the 2nd, right?

 

LMAO! One of the three I expected a response from...

 

After I posted it I saw that I phrased that poorly.

 

I do not think we should repeal the 2nd Amendment, because I feel the framers of the Constitution had very good reasons for writing it. 

 

That being said... if we are to ever have gun laws that DO make sense and are ENFORCED, we need to EXCLUDE the NRA (and others like them) ALONG WITH those who want to repeal the 2nd Amendment.

 

Like I stated before... due to my life's experiences, you will have to drag my guns out of my cold dead hands, as I refuse to be unarmed while the criminal element will be armed.

I don't need an AR-15, bump stock, etc... to defend myself and my family. I believe I DO have common sense... which seems to be in exceedingly short supply in our world today.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://www.topbuzz.com/@tokstesla/george-clooney-donates-500000-to-washington-march-against-gun-violence-CgKADEt4jFo

 

George Clooney and his family will be on hand next month in Washington, D.C., standing "side by side with this incredible generation of young people from all over the country" in hopes of prioritizing safety in schools and combating gun violence.

Funerals have been taking place this week for the teens and teachers who were shot and killed on Feb. 14 by suspected shooter and former classmate Nikolas Cruz.

In a statement to ABC News, Clooney wrote, "Amal and I are so inspired by the courage and eloquence of these young men and women from Stoneman Douglas High School. Our family will be there on March 24 to stand side by side with this incredible generation of young people from all over the country."

The actor and producer added, "In the name of our children Ella and Alexander, we’re donating 500,000 dollars to help pay for this groundbreaking event. Our children’s lives depend on it.”

Clooney joins fellow actors like Josh Gad, who have taken to social media to praise the planned march.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At least most of us can agree that the NRA sucks.  Spreading fear & disinformation sells guns, and that has become their single overriding purpose.

 

Still waiting to hear where this latest loser managed to get a ~ $1500 rifle & another $200+ worth of ammo.  Read some stuff claiming that the white power militia story was a hoax.. perpetrated by alt-right goons.  Some 5th-dimensional chess reasons I guess? They were suggesting that it lets them claim reports about someone like Dylann Roof are fabricated as well.   Seems like a lot of work only to reinforce that their type have completely split from consensus reality. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, oldschooler said:

 

Memes are all I am posting here? I've added plenty more to the conversation than that.

If you don't think so, you should pay closer attention.

 

And gun control applies to all of those countries compared to the U.S.

 

Want me to add Norway? OK. They had 1 mass shooting 7 years ago.

We've had one that was worse in October, 2017 and 3 more highly publicized ones since that one.

Because America.

 

 

 

This was America before that mass shooting in Norway even happened. And it has only gotten worse. 

 

 

Between 2000 and 2010, the recorded 57 incidents in 36 countries.
Half of those incidents — 28 — occurred in the United States.

That's right. In U.S. schools, there was as much violence as schools in:
Argentina
Australia
Azerbaijan
Belgium
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Brazil
Bulgaria
Canada
China
Denmark
England
Finland
France
German
Greece
Guatemala
Hungary
India
Israel
Italy
Japan
Kenya
Latvia
Netherlands
Northern Ireland
Norway
Poland
Russian Federation
Scotland
South Africa
South Korea
Swaziland
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Yemen
Combined.

 

Do you think the only difference between us and all of those countries are a few laws? Thailand just had a military coup a few years back, I shouldn't need to point out the history of guns & violence in Northern Ireland, Bosnia, South Africa, Guatemala and Yemen? We should be more like Yemen?!  My point here is that the United States is unique in demographics, culture & history.  In many parts of our country law enforcement can be hours away.  100 years ago you could've been the victim of a train robbery! What other country in the world was settled/conquered in the last 2 centuries by armed private citizens?  I'm not saying we're stuck with the problem, but it's important IMO to understand that we aren't Europe.  Pointing to Denmark or whoever as an example is flawed from the start.  There's no Chicago in Denmark, or Tulsa, or BFE Nevada for that matter and there was never a Deadwood or Tombstone there, either. There aren't isolated mountain towns overrun with tweakers &/or cartels.  Point being that in many ways we are reaping what we've sown.  I don't like it either but I don't think the laws of Sweden have much to do with anything here.

 

You aren't unique in having children or other people in public schools that you love.  My mom's a retired teacher & had one of her 13 year old student bring a gun to school & had another ex-student caught planning to go sniper on the HS next door from a nearby hill.  One of my closest friends has a daughter that is like a niece to me & just entered public schools; I would take a bullet for either of his kids.  

 

I wasn't trying to insult you but some of the stuff you've been posting is a little reactionary & inaccurate or unfocused.   Right or wrong, spamming stuff like that makes people tune out & I don't think that's your intention.  Take that for what you will, just an observation from someone trying to find a middle ground.

 

 

 

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

Do you think the only difference between us and all of those countries are a few laws?

  

 

Not at all.

 

The biggest difference is the fact 4.4% (US) of the world has 48% of the world's guns with the shitty laws.

And the fact we have the NRA.

 

 

 

Quote

I wasn't trying to insult you but some of the stuff you've been posting is a little reactionary & inaccurate or unfocused.   Right or wrong, spamming stuff like that makes people tune out & I don't think that's your intention.  Take that for what you will, just an observation from someone trying to find a middle ground.

 

 

If you think I post something like that, comment to it. I am posting stuff that is fitting to my beliefs.

The fact you call it spam, or inaccurate and unfocused is your opinion. That does not make it untrue.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

If you think I post something like that, comment to it. I am posting stuff that is fitting to my beliefs.

The fact you call it spam, or inaccurate and unfocused is your opinion. That does not make it untrue.

 

 

 

Not about true or untrue, it's about tone & volume.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, USN Bengal said:

LMAO! One of the three I expected a response from...

 

After I posted it I saw that I phrased that poorly.

 

I do not think we should repeal the 2nd Amendment, because I feel the framers of the Constitution had very good reasons for writing it. 

 

That being said... if we are to ever have gun laws that DO make sense and are ENFORCED, we need to EXCLUDE the NRA (and others like them) ALONG WITH those who want to repeal the 2nd Amendment.

 

Like I stated before... due to my life's experiences, you will have to drag my guns out of my cold dead hands, as I refuse to be unarmed while the criminal element will be armed.

I don't need an AR-15, bump stock, etc... to defend myself and my family. I believe I DO have common sense... which seems to be in exceedingly short supply in our world today.

 

Nope. The 2nd Amendment needs to be highly modified or repealed outright. It won't happen in our lifetime but it must as the carnage will reach a level that will demand change or cause collapse (which in itself will cause change). It needs to specify the kinds of weapons and use that are acceptable for a private citizen, because no one, including you, needs a machine gun in their home (and yes that comment is dripping with hyperbole).

 

12 hours ago, Homer_Rice said:

Written after Newtown, but still relevant:

 

From "Operation Wetback" To Newtown: Tracing The Hick Fascism Of The NRA

 

Well that explains a helluva lot... 

 

9 hours ago, T-Dub said:

What other country in the world was settled/conquered in the last 2 centuries by armed private citizens?  I'm not saying we're stuck with the problem, but it's important IMO to understand that we aren't Europe.  Pointing to Denmark or whoever as an example is flawed from the start.  There's no Chicago in Denmark, or Tulsa, or BFE Nevada for that matter and there was never a Deadwood or Tombstone there, either. There aren't isolated mountain towns overrun with tweakers &/or cartels.  Point being that in many ways we are reaping what we've sown.  I don't like it either but I don't think the laws of Sweden have much to do with anything here.

  

 

As does this. I'm often asked WTF is wrong with the USA when it comes to gun violence, and my flippant response is usually that the US is psychologically damaged on a deep level when it comes to the regulation of firearms. The bolded comment distills the difference in psyche that sets the US apart from most of the world quite nicely. I'll be stealing that. The concept of private weapon ownership (note I didn't say firearms) is quite different here (in the CR in particular) because common citizens rarely owned weapons, even going back hundreds of years. Swords were ceremonial swag for the aristocracy. Gunpowder weapons were also only supplied via the aristocracy to their armies; unless you were a soldier you couldn't afford a rifle, and once you were done serving you didn't get to keep it. There have also been numerous examples of weapons restrictions over the centuries so the concept of personal weapon ownership is still kind of new here. That said:

 

There are a fuckton of guns here, more than I realized. Hell, I had a lesson where one of my students walked in a laid a loaded Czech-made 9mm on the table, because we had discussed guns in a previous lesson and he wanted to show me his favorite. Naturally, being an American I was able to pick it up and field strip it. :lol: Street cred = Obtained. 

 

The moral of that rambling tale is that I think the firearms regulations they have here could be implemented in the US and be effective.

 

Here's a detailed link to their firearm regulations ( I know it's Wikipedia but it's better than the official site via Google translate, trust me), but in a nutshell it includes:

 

  • Theoretical Examination - Written
  • Practical Examination - Mechanical and shooting accuracy
  • Physical and Psychological Examination
  • Criminal Background Check
  • Societal Integrity

You need to go through these steps for each weapon you wish to own, and if approved, you receive a license/license card that must be with the weapon at all times. And you have to justify to the State Police why you need this weapon, and they can veto it. For example, the aforementioned student has extensive military experience, so was approved for a WWI military-style rifle. If I were to try to apply for that same weapon, it would likely be denied (rightfully so) because I have no experience with that style of weapon. They can also deny it simply because they think you have enough guns already, or because the cop happens to know you and knows that you're kind of a drunken asshole. 

 

Is that really too much to ask? There are a lot of guns here, but the mindset of the citizens is completely different. They've never had a school shooting, and there has only been one mass shooting here (5 people in a small village by someone who was insane using a hunting rifle) in the last 50 years that wasn't directly related to the Communists. And I can't really put into words what a relief it is to not have to look for an escape route every time we enter a mall/grocery store/theater in case someone starts shooting. No place is a utopia, but we have found the difference to be quite stark... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/17/2018 at 10:44 AM, oldschooler said:

 

 

You're talking to yourself, literally and figuratively.

He said as much in his post you quoted and the fact he sent me a message a year ago

telling me he wasn't my friend anymore because it was "time to choose sides"

and I am on the other side. Basically his enemy on the subject, which makes me

not worthy of anything but disdain on all subjects, especially this one.

 

He sent me that message right in the middle of one of the worst times of my life.

Okay, I have to respond to this.

 

This is what was in my message to you, with one sentence removed that alluded to a couple other posters, no need to include it here.

 

"You were one of the few reasons I even still came here at all, but now I can't even stand reading your posts. I used to think of you as almost a brother, but we are now so opposite there isn't even a chance at any common ground. I used to say I didn't even need to post, whatever you said was pretty much what I would have said anyway. Not anymore. For the most part, I couldn't disagree with you more.

Oh well. We all have our own opinions, and it's time to choose sides.

I still wish you and your family the best, I probably won't be back. Never post anymore anyway, so no big deal, just wanted to say bye I guess."

 

I had no idea, and still don't know what you were going through as far as being "in the middle of one of the worst times of my life". Just look at your posts in the last few days in this thread. They are typical of why I sent you that message. The kind of rhetoric you spew backs people like me into a corner, and makes anything resembling discussion impossible. One of the things you posted basically said I have a morality problem. If you think your views make you morally superior to me you couldn't be more wrong. My right to defend myself and my family, including my 9 year old granddaughter who means more to me than anything in the world, trumps any insults you can throw at me.

 

Yes I voted for Trump and would do so again. I wouldn't have voted for Hillary if you put a bazooka to my head. IMO she is the personification of evil. I believe Obama was the worst president of my lifetime. You didn't see me in here for the 8 years he was in office making personal insults towards those who voted for him. That kind of shit makes it impossible to have a discussion.

 

Ahh, fuck it, what's the point?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://time.com/5167687/florida-shooting-lawmakers-assault-weapon-ban/

 

(PARKLAND, Fla.) — Students who survived the Florida school shooting began a journey Tuesday to the state Capitol to urge lawmakers to prevent another massacre, but within hours the gun-friendly Legislature had effectively halted any possibility of banning assault-style rifles like the one used in the attack.

The legislative action further energized the teens as they prepared to confront legislators who have quashed gun-control efforts for decades in a state where 1.3 million people have concealed carry permits.

 

“They’re voting to have shootings continually happen. These people who voted down the bill haven’t experienced what we did. I want to say to them, ‘It could be you,'” 16-year-old Noah Kaufman said as he made the 400-mile (640-kilometer) trip to Tallahassee.

 

Three buses carried 100 students who, in the aftermath of the attack that killed 17 people, want to revive the gun-control movement. The teens carried sleeping bags and pillows and hugged their parents as they departed, many wearing burgundy T-shirts in their school colors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Elflocko said:

 

Nope. The 2nd Amendment needs to be highly modified or repealed outright. It won't happen in our lifetime but it must as the carnage will reach a level that will demand change or cause collapse (which in itself will cause change). It needs to specify the kinds of weapons and use that are acceptable for a private citizen, because no one, including you, needs a machine gun in their home (and yes that comment is dripping with hyperbole).

 

 

Well that explains a helluva lot... 

 

 

As does this. I'm often asked WTF is wrong with the USA when it comes to gun violence, and my flippant response is usually that the US is psychologically damaged on a deep level when it comes to the regulation of firearms. The bolded comment distills the difference in psyche that sets the US apart from most of the world quite nicely. I'll be stealing that. The concept of private weapon ownership (note I didn't say firearms) is quite different here (in the CR in particular) because common citizens rarely owned weapons, even going back hundreds of years. Swords were ceremonial swag for the aristocracy. Gunpowder weapons were also only supplied via the aristocracy to their armies; unless you were a soldier you couldn't afford a rifle, and once you were done serving you didn't get to keep it. There have also been numerous examples of weapons restrictions over the centuries so the concept of personal weapon ownership is still kind of new here. That said:

 

There are a fuckton of guns here, more than I realized. Hell, I had a lesson where one of my students walked in a laid a loaded Czech-made 9mm on the table, because we had discussed guns in a previous lesson and he wanted to show me his favorite. Naturally, being an American I was able to pick it up and field strip it. :lol: Street cred = Obtained. 

 

The moral of that rambling tale is that I think the firearms regulations they have here could be implemented in the US and be effective.

 

Here's a detailed link to their firearm regulations ( I know it's Wikipedia but it's better than the official site via Google translate, trust me), but in a nutshell it includes:

 

  • Theoretical Examination - Written
  • Practical Examination - Mechanical and shooting accuracy
  • Physical and Psychological Examination
  • Criminal Background Check
  • Societal Integrity

You need to go through these steps for each weapon you wish to own, and if approved, you receive a license/license card that must be with the weapon at all times. And you have to justify to the State Police why you need this weapon, and they can veto it. For example, the aforementioned student has extensive military experience, so was approved for a WWI military-style rifle. If I were to try to apply for that same weapon, it would likely be denied (rightfully so) because I have no experience with that style of weapon. They can also deny it simply because they think you have enough guns already, or because the cop happens to know you and knows that you're kind of a drunken asshole. 

 

Is that really too much to ask? There are a lot of guns here, but the mindset of the citizens is completely different. They've never had a school shooting, and there has only been one mass shooting here (5 people in a small village by someone who was insane using a hunting rifle) in the last 50 years that wasn't directly related to the Communists. And I can't really put into words what a relief it is to not have to look for an escape route every time we enter a mall/grocery store/theater in case someone starts shooting. No place is a utopia, but we have found the difference to be quite stark... 

I disagree, in large part because even though I would personally have no problem going through these steps (easy for me, had to basically do all this before), why go after the OVERWHELMING majority of law abiding Americans... and not the criminals?

 

I am in complete agreement that no one needs machine guns, and that the local lawman would have a better idea on the actions of individuals. Of course, machine guns have been outlawed to own since 1934 and even that law was upgraded in 1986.

 

Curious about the rich/politicians/1%ers... if guns are banned would they make their security abide by that?

Seriously doubt it, as the "commoner laws" don't apply to the privileged even now. 

As far as gun ownership in Europe, you do realize that is was aristocracy/royals that had the "good" weapons so that the peasants wouldn't overthrow them. That has followed them through the years almost as if it's a legacy. Many of my European friends own weapons, or want to own them but can't because of what they call "priveleged laws".

 

There have been reported shootings at school since the 1800s, but it has especially gotten worse since the late mid/late 90s.

What has changed?

 

Internet, video games, glorification of the gang culture, violence on TV/movies/games became accepted as commonplace and "normal". Mental health care availability has shrunk every year and drug crisis has grown. 

 

Why go after say... me for example.

 

I've had extensive weapons training, had to prove my proficiency year after year, and have had no transgressions which would lawfully disqualify me from owning a weapon.

I've EARNED the right to own my weapons, yet there are many who want to ban them completely or repeal/change the 2nd Amendment.

 

I've had a gun shoved to my head twice (mugged in Chicago and LA) and the home invasion with fatalities just a street over make me say that is the perfect reason for me to own weapons to defend myself and my family. I am also a business owner who makes bank deposits, and I sure as hell am armed when I do.


Now why go after me? Why not go after gangs, known felons, drug dealers, and confiscate THEIR weapons? Why not finally enforce the rules on the books?

Why go after those who have never broken a law, abused the 2nd Amendment, or are the ones who are the danger to our kids, society, and peace of mind?

 

Quit fucking with those who don't deserve to be fucked with, attack the REAL problem... criminals/drugs/mental health deficiencies. 

 

The world is an evil place, and if you take away the means of an average person to defend themselves against a criminal who won't obey the laws, then you've perfected the world...

 

For criminals. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, USN Bengal said:

I disagree, in large part because even though I would personally have no problem going through these steps (easy for me, had to basically do all this before), why go after the OVERWHELMING majority of law abiding Americans... and not the criminals?

 

 

1

 

Why mandate training, licensing, and insurance to drive a motor vehicle? Why mandate licensure and training for medical professionals? Hey, I think I'm capable of driving a fully loaded 18-wheeler, give me a crack at it! We do so to ensure that people with certain responsibilities are capable of performing those tasks in a manner that is safe for the general public. 

 

Look, you're the type of guy I want owning weapons; you're smart, you're even keel, and you're well trained, but there is no way to paint you as the typical gun owner because you're certainly not. You ask why we would burden the "Overwhelming majority of law-abiding Americans" with requirements I listed above. You can talk about citizens being "law-abiding" all you want, it doesn't mean that they aren't dipshits with impulse control problems that have no business owning a firearm. I think it's common sense to root those people out and exclude them. 

 

As for the criminal aspect: I have no answer, but I did touch on it in my response to T-Dub's comment, and when you speak out against criminality, you're really speaking out against violence. I do believe that the source of that violence is rooted in institutional racism, poverty, and income disparity, but again I have no solution aside from a good plague. We have crime here, but it's mainly pick-pockets and petty theft. Violent crime is very rare, murders are extremely rare (and I live in the capital city). That's a cultural difference. The Czechs are decidedly non-confrontational, which is a cultural mark, just like violence and oppression are hallmarks of the American culture, starting with eradicating the native inhabitants on the continent, to shipping in other human beings from across the globe as chattel for economic gain, to the storied violence of the "Wild West" (though they did have gun control then, just FYI). Does that mean every American is a murderous douchebag? Of course not, but violence has been a running thread since the founding of the country, and I've no delusions of it ever changing. 

 

That said, I'm not even sure why I continue to discuss this topic, aside from the fact that you're a good egg and I value your opinion. I do not believe that anything will ever change in my lifetime, and I'm just glad that we didn't procreate...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Elflocko said:

 

Why mandate training, licensing, and insurance to drive a motor vehicle? Why mandate licensure and training for medical professionals? Hey, I think I'm capable of driving a fully loaded 18-wheeler, give me a crack at it! We do so to ensure that people with certain responsibilities are capable of performing those tasks in a manner that is safe for the general public. 

 

Look, you're the type of guy I want owning weapons; you're smart, you're even keel, and you're well trained, but there is no way to paint you as the typical gun owner because you're certainly not. You ask why we would burden the "Overwhelming majority of law-abiding Americans" with requirements I listed above. You can talk about citizens being "law-abiding" all you want, it doesn't mean that they aren't dipshits with impulse control problems that have no business owning a firearm. I think it's common sense to root those people out and exclude them. 

 

As for the criminal aspect: I have no answer, but I did touch on it in my response to T-Dub's comment, and when you speak out against criminality, you're really speaking out against violence. I do believe that the source of that violence is rooted in institutional racism, poverty, and income disparity, but again I have no solution aside from a good plague. We have crime here, but it's mainly pick-pockets and petty theft. Violent crime is very rare, murders are extremely rare (and I live in the capital city). That's a cultural difference. The Czechs are decidedly non-confrontational, which is a cultural mark, just like violence and oppression are hallmarks of the American culture, starting with eradicating the native inhabitants on the continent, to shipping in other human beings from across the globe as chattel for economic gain, to the storied violence of the "Wild West" (though they did have gun control then, just FYI). Does that mean every American is a murderous douchebag? Of course not, but violence has been a running thread since the founding of the country, and I've no delusions of it ever changing. 

 

That said, I'm not even sure why I continue to discuss this topic, aside from the fact that you're a good egg and I value your opinion. I do not believe that anything will ever change in my lifetime, and I'm just glad that we didn't procreate...

I hear you... frustrating t say the least. Definitely a helluva lot less violence overall in Europe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...