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Guns in America


MichaelWeston

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2 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

 

The next time someone goes into a school or other mundane place and murders dozens of people

with a knife, garden gnome or even a car that goes over 80 mph, it will be the first time.

The things do not equate. 

 

Yeah you're still missing the point. I am questioning whether people have been successfully sued or prosecuted for that situation, not whether it's right or wrong or if a terrorist shooting people is different than running them over with a box truck.

 

On thinking about it, I did meet someone once whose brother had stolen a car from a used car lot that he ended up crashing fatally.  The family successfully sued the car lot for not securing the keys well enough. I guess they were on a pegboard out in the open. 

 

Again, I understand cars are different than guns.  My question was about the laws involved.

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10 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Seems like most of them don't own them at all, or shouldn't legally be allowed to have them in the first place. 

Seems like you gleefully ignored the next line. Your recreational gun use shouldn't mean that kids have to die. 

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7 hours ago, MichaelWeston said:

Seems like you gleefully ignored the next line. Your recreational gun use shouldn't mean that kids have to die. 

 

Your recreational pool use shouldn't mean that kids have to die. Drowning kills more kids than guns. Ban assault pools! Ban water!

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On 5/15/2018 at 3:50 PM, USN Bengal said:

If you support ANY politician, something is wrong with you.

 

 

 

You seriously can't believe that Trump is just like every politician.

 

This shit is not "normal" and is a whole other level of shit.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

 

You seriously can't believe that Trump is just like every politician.

 

This shit is not "normal" and is a whole other level of shit.

 

 

Never said he was “just like” anyone, but he and every other politician is a lying piece of shit that doesn’t care about us. I’ve said the same thing over and over, yet people continue to try and twist shit into something resembling “Trump is worse than them all, yet you say he’s just Ike all the others.”

 

Again, Trump is a lying disgusting piece of shit. He has his own brand of shit, different from the others, but in the end they are all shit.

 

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8 hours ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

 

 

What about my views on the militarization of police &/or the history of corruption/racism/abuse within the Houston PD and/or Harris County Sheriffs?

 

Yeah, I bet he's not interested in my views about those either.  But they're not so much views as things that have happened.

 

At any rate, thankfully his views on everyone's rights & everything else get taken along with everyone else's.   That being said, I am still interested in what his views actually are, not least because of his background. It's more useful than whatever the NRA is yelling at the moment. This quote stood out:

 

"The hatred being spewed in our country and the new norms we, so-called people of faith, are accepting, is as much to blame for so much of the violence in our once pragmatic Nation."

 

Houston is open-carry, if anyone else was wondering.

 

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20 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Yeah you're still missing the point. I am questioning whether people have been successfully sued or prosecuted for that situation, not whether it's right or wrong or if a terrorist shooting people is different than running them over with a box truck.

 

On thinking about it, I did meet someone once whose brother had stolen a car from a used car lot that he ended up crashing fatally.  The family successfully sued the car lot for not securing the keys well enough. I guess they were on a pegboard out in the open. 

 

Again, I understand cars are different than guns.  My question was about the laws involved.

 

 

Well, you need to learn to convey your messaging better, because it sure looked

like you were equating  guns with other things. You even went on to ask

why cars are allowed to go over 80 mph. 

 

And people that are ran over with box trucks have been on the streets.

Not in schools and other buildings. And there have been plenty of cities

that have taken steps and put protective barriers in place to prevent such things.

Hell, we're still reeling from the last school shooting, with a Waffle House shooting

in between and here's another. Still nothing is really being done. 

 

To be honest, I don't know where you actually stand on this topic.

You keep seeing mass shootings and say you're not caught up in the WARGLBARGL. (whatever that means)

You seem to conflate everyday objects with guns. You seem to act like all guns are created equally

and people that think they're not are just part of the WARGLBARGL. You call people that are wanting

to see positive changes and being as relentless as the 2ndA gun lovers a "circlejerk".

 

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25 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

To be honest, I don't know where you actually stand on this topic.

You keep seeing mass shootings and say you're not caught up in the WARGLBARGL. (whatever that means)

 

The yelling, the thoughts & prayers, the "sides", etc.  Reacting to it is natural but that's not stopping it.  Some of that reaction further drives it IMO. 

 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/argle-bargle

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You seem to conflate everyday objects with guns. You seem to act like all guns are created equally

 

Because for many, many people it is just an object.  It's dinner on the table or an afternoon target shooting with generations of family, not some insidious weapon of mass murder.  The difference in how you or I feel about them isn't relevant. I'm more nervous using a circular saw than a handgun.  I don't think they're the same thing. I don't think all guns are the same thing. I do think the people who actually write laws that are screaming the loudest about which ones to ban don't seem to know the difference. That's ineffective and stupid and dangerous, because again it just drives the debate further into, yeah, "WARGLBARGL!" where nothing actually happens.  Which is what those same people typically want, I think, so long as they look good doing it.

 

 

 

Quote

 

 You call people that are wanting

to see positive changes and being as relentless as the 2ndA gun lovers a "circlejerk".

 

 

People that think it's one or the other, yes.  People that just want to yell about it & have no patience for the discussion that needs to happen if they want to see things done, or for any viewpoint other than 100% agreement.  You're posting it to a forum, after all.    Maybe I'm just pissing in the wind myself but otherwise it'd be 50 pages of you reposting things ;P

 

I've mentioned all kinds of additional laws I agree with, or more often changes to better the enforcement of existing ones. I've also tried to add some perspective as to why there is an opposition, even when I don't agree with it myself.  

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

Because for many, many people it is just an object.  It's dinner on the table or an afternoon target shooting with generations of family, not some insidious weapon of mass murder.  The difference in how you or I feel about them isn't relevant. I'm more nervous using a circular saw than a handgun.  I don't think they're the same thing. I don't think all guns are the same thing. I do think the people who actually write laws that are screaming the loudest about which ones to ban don't seem to know the difference. That's ineffective and stupid and dangerous, because again it just drives the debate further into, yeah, "WARGLBARGL!" where nothing actually happens.  Which is what those same people typically want, I think, so long as they look good doing it.

 

Well, then those people need to wake up and pay attention.

It's an object that was invented to kill with little skill or effort.

And it's being used in everyday mundane places to murder dozens of Americans at once.

We're not talking about a circular saw. If you use a gun the only thing in danger is what

you're aiming at. There are plenty people writing laws that know the difference in guns.

And if they're not there now, they need to be voted in in November.

 

Only roughly 30% of adults own guns. A very stubborn and vocal minority of that are

the ones resistant to any change. And the NRA is leading the charge in that regards.

I do believe the tide is turning and they are actually being viewed as the minority with

deep pockets that's answer for everything is conform everything around us selling 

more guns. 

 

 

 

 

51 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

People that think it's one or the other, yes.  People that just want to yell about it & have no patience for the discussion that needs to happen if they want to see things done, or for any viewpoint other than 100% agreement.  You're posting it to a forum, after all.    Maybe I'm just pissing in the wind myself but otherwise it'd be 50 pages of you reposting things ;P

 

I've mentioned all kinds of additional laws I agree with, or more often changes to better the enforcement of existing ones. I've also tried to add some perspective as to why there is an opposition, even when I don't agree with it myself.  

 

 

 

Yes, we're on a forum, a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
I can not help it if there is not really much of anyone expressing opposing views and adding to discussion.

But should I not posy here in this forum just because there is no one opposing my views? I made a thread

asking as much and was told to keep posting. I'm not trying to add to a divide. But I sure as hell ain't

wanting to ignore it and accept it as normal either.

 

I see it as there is a problem and the ones that are wanting to do nothing and blame everything but guns

have been winning for far too long and now they've been knocked on their assess. I want to keep pummeling

them while they're down. I have made it clear that I am for people owning guns. I am not for all out bans.

I wouldn't be against some bans, but it is nothing I see as a must do. I am for making it harder to obtain them.

More punishment for negligence and misuse, training and a host of other things. I have no time for people at

the far Right of the topic that sees evil, fatherless boys, too many doors at schools, video games, music and a

host of other bullshit being the problem and the answer being more guns and hard targets everywhere. 

 

I don't feel like I am just adding nonesense to this thread. I definitely think what I add to this topic is a hell

of a lot more than just meaningless talk and noise. 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, oldschooler said:

 

Well, then those people need to wake up and pay attention.

 

 

Didn't want to quote everything again but I think most people are paying attention. They may not all agree with you, is all. I tend to more often than not as far as that goes.  Not saying you shouldn't post w/e you want for the most part but this subforum is an echo chamber most of the time & turns sour quickly when it's not.   In short I see this as more of a mental health crisis than a gun crisis.  You may not want to hear it but the guns aren't new.  Very few of these mass shooter nuts are legal gun owners, or otherwise fell through the cracks in hindsight. Then someone comes along that's even worse and he didn't seem to have raised a single red flag. Being able to amass that kind of arsenal without question is pretty fucked up.  These seem to me like the areas to focus our efforts on. Public schools need counselors & a host of other things more than they need armed teachers. I also think our 2nd Amendment, the 2nd thing addressed in our Bill of Rights, was put there for a reason.  The idea that we've evolved beyond the need for it strikes me as wishful thinking.  

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

  

 

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1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

In short I see this as more of a mental health crisis than a gun crisis

 

Every country has mentally ill people, some with even shittier healthcare than the US. Where are all of their mass shootings?

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10 hours ago, Elflocko said:

 

Every country has mentally ill people, some with even shittier healthcare than the US. Where are all of their mass shootings?

Every country has literally every other issue but the guns. It's so clearly the guns. 

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12 hours ago, Elflocko said:

 

Every country has mentally ill people, some with even shittier healthcare than the US. Where are all of their mass shootings?

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/10/06/555861898/gun-violence-how-the-u-s-compares-to-other-countries

 

https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/

 

Stats aside, the Utoya massacre was worse than anything we've seen so far in the US.  Europe in general has seen terrible mass shootings in the last few years, despite our legal differences.

 

We like to think this is a uniquely American problem (like everything else we do) but it's really not.  The accelerating frequency of them in the US is definitely alarming.  What do you think is causing that? Again, the guns aren't new.  Number of owners hasn't changed much in the last 40 years according to this (which also shows is at closer to 50% than 30%, btw)

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/

 

This quotes the 30% figure but I haven't finished reading it yet. Lots of good info so far but I haven't found a year-to-year stat. 

 

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/americas-complex-relationship-with-guns/

 

It occurs to me that "household" is not the same as "percentage of pop". I would say that "households" is more informative than counting everyone in that house & saying eg only 1/5 people there own a gun.  To put it another way, that would claim that almost 1/2 the households in the US are armed, regardless of who technically owns the gun.

 

On that note, I think accidental shootings or even a negligent discharge should be grounds for losing your right to own a gun at least temporarily, depending on the circumstances.  Make people prove something before returning them.  If someone is killed you probably shouldn't get them back.

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20 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/10/06/555861898/gun-violence-how-the-u-s-compares-to-other-countries

 

https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/

 

Stats aside, the Utoya massacre was worse than anything we've seen so far in the US.  Europe in general has seen terrible mass shootings in the last few years, despite our legal differences.

 

We like to think this is a uniquely American problem (like everything else we do) but it's really not.  The accelerating frequency of them in the US is definitely alarming.  What do you think is causing that? Again, the guns aren't new.  Number of owners hasn't changed much in the last 40 years according to this (which also shows is at closer to 50% than 30%, btw)

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/

 

This quotes the 30% figure but I haven't finished reading it yet. Lots of good info so far but I haven't found a year-to-year stat. 

 

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/americas-complex-relationship-with-guns/

 

It occurs to me that "household" is not the same as "percentage of pop". I would say that "households" is more informative than counting everyone in that house & saying eg only 1/5 people there own a gun.  To put it another way, that would claim that almost 1/2 the households in the US are armed, regardless of who technically owns the gun.

 

On that note, I think accidental shootings or even a negligent discharge should be grounds for losing your right to own a gun at least temporarily, depending on the circumstances.  Make people prove something before returning them.  If someone is killed you probably shouldn't get them back.

 Perhaps I should have specified "Industrialized Nations"? I ask as a lot of the nations in those comparisons are rife with drug cartels (mostly due to our drug policies and meddlesome nature) and awash in weapons (also due to our drug policies and meddling, AKA likely from the CIA). Or, they are dangerous just due to our meddling (read Iraq). 

 

And I touched on what I believe is the underlying cause, or at least one of them, up-thread when I stated that the USA is deeply psychologically damaged when it comes to firearms and violence in general. A dysfunction that runs deep in the history of this country, a fact you pointed out previously. 

 

Here's the thing. Having the opportunity to live in another country and culture, I can tell you that the culture is simply different. Speaking for my current residence, the Czechs are simply non-confrontational. A lot of it stems from being ruled over by the Germans, the Hapsburgs, the Soviets, dating back hundreds of years, but they simply don't get in your face for no fucking reason and keep to themselves. This in turn means they don't have an overwhelming desire to arm themselves to the teeth just to run down to the grocery store to buy some milk. It's part of why the Czech Republic is listed as the sixth most peaceful country on the planet; we've never felt safer anywhere else but Japan. Is it a utopia? Hell no, it has its problems, just like every country. However, it is refreshing no longer feeling compelled to scope out exit plans every time we walk into a building in case someone starts shooting, having to wonder if everyone I meet is armed, or worrying that someone will think I'm looking at them funny and gun me down. 

 

And BTW, they really do have a high rate of gun ownership here compared to much of the EU. They just don't feel the need to whip the fucking things out every chance they get like a 12 year that just learned to masturbate... 

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2 hours ago, Elflocko said:

It's part of why the Czech Republic is listed as the sixth most peaceful country on the planet; we've never felt safer anywhere else but Japan. Is it a utopia? Hell no, it has its problems, just like every country. However, it is refreshing no longer feeling compelled to scope out exit plans every time we walk into a building in case someone starts shooting, having to wonder if everyone I meet is armed, or worrying that someone will think I'm looking at them funny and gun me down. 

 

And BTW, they really do have a high rate of gun ownership here compared to much of the EU. They just don't feel the need to whip the fucking things out every chance they get like a 12 year that just learned to masturbate... 

 

 

That 2nd link claims they have a higher rate of death from mass shootings than we do (for '09-15).  I'm struggling to think of a recent mass shooting there? None of the other countries ahead of us on that list are in the MidEast or Central/South America.

 

All this stuff aside, I'm very interested in the culture there.  My paternal grandma was Czech (Moravian as she would always correct us) & babushka af.   Texas in general is thick with Czechs.  What a shock it was to discover I couldn't get kolache and klobasnik at any old bakery.  Hell the best in Houston are boudin ones from random Viet convenience stores. I still haven't fully recovered from the loss.:(

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3 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

That 2nd link claims they have a higher rate of death from mass shootings than we do (for '09-15).  I'm struggling to think of a recent mass shooting there? None of the other countries ahead of us on that list are in the MidEast or Central/South America.

 

All this stuff aside, I'm very interested in the culture there.  My paternal grandma was Czech (Moravian as she would always correct us) & babushka af.   Texas in general is thick with Czechs.  What a shock it was to discover I couldn't get kolache and klobasnik at any old bakery.  Hell the best in Houston are boudin ones from random Viet convenience stores. I still haven't fully recovered from the loss.:(

That second link is complete tripe. I was suspicious of the data I was seeing In general, and then I hit the line on Czech Republic. Complete and utter bullshit. This country has had exactly ONE mass shooting not associated with the Communists over the last 50 years. And that was a crazy mofo in a small village who thought people were out to get him, locked them in a pub, and killed them with a hunting rifle. The country as a whole freaked the fuck out. 

 

That said, come and visit. The people, the culture, and the food are outstanding. And yes, there's a big difference between Bohemia and Moravia. It's like New York and Boston. Both are awesome here though... 

 

ETA: My wife and I are great tour guides. Just ask Sois or CincyInDC.

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4 hours ago, Elflocko said:

That second link is complete tripe.

 

 

I think what they did is set the bar for "mass shooting" at 8-9 dead in order to exclude some of the events here but include the one you're talking about.  Stats, y'know.

 

Quote

And yes, there's a big difference between Bohemia and Moravia. It's like New York and Boston. Both are awesome here though... 

 

So different but not overstuffed bags of asshole?  Which one is.. Yeah, never mind that.  I appreciate the invite.  If I can put such a trip together I will bug you with more questions.

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3 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

I think what they did is set the bar for "mass shooting" at 8-9 dead in order to exclude some of the events here but include the one you're talking about.  Stats, y'know.

 

 

So different but not overstuffed bags of asshole?  Which one is.. Yeah, never mind that.  I appreciate the invite.  If I can put such a trip together I will bug you with more questions.

 

I found the entire site to be highly partisan and suspect. 

 

And what I meant to elucidate about the regional differences was more about Prague and Brno, in that they hate each other. 😂 

 

There are some small regional differences in food, and Moravia is the wine region. That and the slivovica from that region seems to be better. And my favorite beer is Radegast, which is brewed in Moravia. Other than that... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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