MichaelWeston Posted June 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 With the disclaimer that I am just spitballing since you asked - education. We have shitty public schools. I also think another WPA-type jobs program to repair our 2nd-world infrastructure would be a good idea. That'd mean closing the corporate tax loopholes to fund it though and apparently paying taxes for things other than war is socialism, so... :shrug: Ultimately though I think it comes down to what kind of country we want to be, what we want our society to be.. Right now what we seem to want is to be left alone to consume, consume, consume & to have some vaguely-threatening other on which to take out our frustration. There are powerful ppl getting stupid rich off the status quo and a whole lot more who are just comfortable enough to not cause problems but still kept just angry enough to blame someone else & be easily manipulated. The idea that what we do is right because it's us, overwhelming apathy from living in a corrupt plutocracy.. A lot of things. I don't think there's any one thing that will fix it all but generally I feel like this is a ridiculously wealthy country with ridiculously shitty priorities & an unsustainable way of life that it's going to be incredibly difficult to convince people to let go of, even a little bit. This is very true. I am always amazed that we keep electing the same people and hating them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdWarrior Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 We do not have shitty public schools. We have shitty inner-city public schools. And if you took every teacher from Sycamore and switched them with, say, Taft, do you think the scores would dramatically change? I don't. So really, it's not the schools. It's the culture (economic, household, peers, media) which drives the educational success. But back to guns, there is also a reason that shootings are higher in OTR than Sycamore. Is it related to schools, or to discipline, respect for authority, and parental involvement? Sadly, horribly, I have to admit that my life was touched today by a gun-related tragedy. My son came to me weeping this morning. One of his Moeller sports teammates shot himself last night. The earlier post (by MichaelWeston) about the success of male suicide proved tragically true. I never really worried about my kids accidentally shooting themselves, but I have to admit in my heart that an available firearm may have made this student's "permanent solution to temporary problems" easier and quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted June 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 We do not have shitty public schools. We have shitty inner-city public schools. And if you took every teacher from Sycamore and switched them with, say, Taft, do you think the scores would dramatically change? I don't. So really, it's not the schools. It's the culture (economic, household, peers, media) which drives the educational success. But back to guns, there is also a reason that shootings are higher in OTR than Sycamore. Is it related to schools, or to discipline, respect for authority, and parental involvement? Sadly, horribly, I have to admit that my life was touched today by a gun-related tragedy. My son came to me weeping this morning. One of his Moeller sports teammates shot himself last night. The earlier post (by MichaelWeston) about the success of male suicide proved tragically true. I never really worried about my kids accidentally shooting themselves, but I have to admit in my heart that an available firearm may have made this student's "permanent solution to temporary problems" easier and quicker. Rural public schools are shitty too. We have shitty public schools in poor areas. Sorry I didn't read past that. I am sorry to hear how it has effected you. People are far more likely to shoot themselves then to ever use the gun to protect themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 We do not have shitty public schools. We have shitty inner-city public schools. And if you took every teacher from Sycamore and switched them with, say, Taft, do you think the scores would dramatically change? I don't. So really, it's not the schools. It's the culture (economic, household, peers, media) which drives the educational success. But back to guns, there is also a reason that shootings are higher in OTR than Sycamore. Is it related to schools, or to discipline, respect for authority, and parental involvement? Sadly, horribly, I have to admit that my life was touched today by a gun-related tragedy. My son came to me weeping this morning. One of his Moeller sports teammates shot himself last night. The earlier post (by MichaelWeston) about the success of male suicide proved tragically true. I never really worried about my kids accidentally shooting themselves, but I have to admit in my heart that an available firearm may have made this student's "permanent solution to temporary problems" easier and quicker. Sure, completely ignore the fact that the way we fund our schools guarantees that those who live in poor neighborhoods will always have shittier schools, while those in nice neighborhoods have nice schools and blame it all on the "culture". That is some loaded ass shit you just said right there.. Don't you think this very systematic firewall that is there for the exact reason of keeping people "in their place" might have a fair impact on this "culture" you speak of? Why would you value your education when your school is falling apart, your text books are out of date.. And extracurricular activities? Fuck it, even music classes.. Forget about it.. You don't think the people in these areas KNOW that the deck is stacked against them on purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdWarrior Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Ignore the fact? "Economic" is the first word in parentheses after "culture" in my post. I absolutely agree that the way we fund our schools desperately needs to change. Didn't Ohio just change that law? The post mentioning rural schools is spot on too. Sure, completely ignore the fact that the way we fund our schools guarantees that those who live in poor neighborhoods will always have shittier schools, while those in nice neighborhoods have nice schools and blame it all on the "culture". That is some loaded ass shit you just said right there.. Don't you think this very systematic firewall that is there for the exact reason of keeping people "in their place" might have a fair impact on this "culture" you speak of? Why would you value your education when your school is falling apart, your text books are out of date.. And extracurricular activities? Fuck it, even music classes.. Forget about it.. You don't think the people in these areas KNOW that the deck is stacked against them on purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdWarrior Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Nobody from Sycamore is trying to "keep anyone in their place". They are willing to pay more for a house in order to be in a good school district. The economic problem is real, but you attribute way too much maliciousness to it. Every human, black, white or yellow, is willing to stretch their economics to provide the best for their children. Actually, I guess that's not true. Some fathers choose to abandon their children altogether, thereby creating a monstrous economic sinkhole for the abandoned wife and children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Numbers| Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I don't hunt, and have no interest in hunting unless I have to in order to survive. The second amendment has nothing whatsoever to do with hunting. Automatic weapons are already for all intents and purposes illegal. They cost a fortune and you have to do all kinds of government paperwork and pay government fees. Virtually no one in this country owns automatic weapons. Handguns are critical to the natural right of self defense. For those that have a class 3 license, how many of them commit a crime with their weapons or have one of their weapons used in a crime ? Really next to none if any at all. The hoops necessary to jump through to become a legal owner of class 3 are unbelievable. Don't even think about manufacturing, that's a whole other mess. More people should have to go through the money, paperwork, investigation, personal unannounced visits / inspection, range training, etc... To be a gun owner. The personal visits may be a little extreme but they serve a purpose believe it or not. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 For those that have a class 3 license, how many of them commit a crime with their weapons or have one of their weapons used in a crime ? Really next to none if any at all. The hoops necessary to jump through to become a legal owner of class 3 are unbelievable. Don't even think about manufacturing, that's a whole other mess. More people should have to go through the money, paperwork, investigation, personal unannounced visits / inspection, range training, etc... To be a gun owner. The personal visits may be a little extreme but they serve a purpose believe it or not. Peace. This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Nobody from Sycamore is trying to "keep anyone in their place". They are willing to pay more for a house in order to be in a good school district. The economic problem is real, but you attribute way too much maliciousness to it. Every human, black, white or yellow, is willing to stretch their economics to provide the best for their children. Actually, I guess that's not true. Some fathers choose to abandon their children altogether, thereby creating a monstrous economic sinkhole for the abandoned wife and children. I call bull shit. They want the "nice" school because of the advantages it gives their children over the other children who didn't go to as nice a school. It's the necessary other side of the "nice school" coin that gives the whole thing value in the first place. Elevate all the other schools to the same level as theirs and there would be an uproar like you wouldn't believe. There would be lots of justifications listed as reason, but the big underlying one will always be, "My kid deserves a "better" education because I earned it". That might make sense to you, but what I see are children. Who didn;t make any decision in life about how much their parents make or where they live. I think they deserve an equal shake. And it infuriates me that this is so easy to fix yet will never happen for the reason I just explained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted June 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Id love to learn more about funding of schools in Ohio because I think everything each of you say is right. The school funding is out of wack I think. Basing it off local property taxes and than allowing cities within cities like Bexley or Upper Arlington or Grandview in Columbus is a really odd thing. But I also often hear that more money is spent per pupil in low income areas than in high income areas. I also know that the funding of schools in Ohio has been declared unconstitutional several times with nothing happening. I also think that it has a lot to do with money and culture. Some places value education some don't. Some people have to work 3 jobs to make what others make in 3 hours so they can't be there to help their kids with their homework etc. I don't know what's true. I don't know how to fix it. I do know we need a much more utilitarian approach to it. I think there is a lot of blaming the other side and pointing fingers and not a lot of bold ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Id love to learn more about funding of schools in Ohio because I think everything each of you say is right. The school funding is out of wack I think. Basing it off local property taxes and than allowing cities within cities like Bexley or Upper Arlington or Grandview in Columbus is a really odd thing. But I also often hear that more money is spent per pupil in low income areas than in high income areas. I also know that the funding of schools in Ohio has been declared unconstitutional several times with nothing happening. I also think that it has a lot to do with money and culture. Some places value education some don't. Some people have to work 3 jobs to make what others make in 3 hours so they can't be there to help their kids with their homework etc. I don't know what's true. I don't know how to fix it. I do know we need a much more utilitarian approach to it. I think there is a lot of blaming the other side and pointing fingers and not a lot of bold ideas. Can you find something to show where more is spent per student in the low income school districts. This does not pass initial muster to me. You are going to have to back that up with something reputable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|OneHeartBeat| Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I call bull shit. They want the "nice" school because of the advantages it gives their children over the other children who didn't go to as nice a school. It's the necessary other side of the "nice school" coin that gives the whole thing value in the first place. Elevate all the other schools to the same level as theirs and there would be an uproar like you wouldn't believe. There would be lots of justifications listed as reason, but the big underlying one will always be, "My kid deserves a "better" education because I earned it". That might make sense to you, but what I see are children. Who didn;t make any decision in life about how much their parents make or where they live. I think they deserve an equal shake. And it infuriates me that this is so easy to fix yet will never happen for the reason I just explained. You are absolutely correct that these children deserve a fair shake. I've worked in education at a fairly high level at one time.I got to visit many schools across the state and talk with teachers and students . What became obvious is that there are shitty teachers and their are very good teachers. The more passionate teachers were in the poor inner city schools. They're is also an unbelievable number of shitty parents. I don't think any amount of money can solve the problem of shitty parents. The top complaint from teachers besides the lack of money is the lack of parental involvement with their children. How do you solve that problem? You can't legislate parents to be involved. I don't know the answer to funding either. I do know that there's an incredible amount of waste at the government level. It is mind-boggling. That's where the cuts should start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 You are absolutely correct that these children deserve a fair shake. I've worked in education at a fairly high level at one time.I got to visit many schools across the state and talk with teachers and students . What became obvious is that there are shitty teachers and their are very good teachers. The more passionate teachers were in the poor inner city schools. They're is also an unbelievable number of shitty parents. I don't think any amount of money can solve the problem of shitty parents. The top complaint from teachers besides the lack of money is the lack of parental involvement with their children. How do you solve that problem? You can't legislate parents to be involved. I don't know the answer to funding either. I do know that there's an incredible amount of waste at the government level. It is mind-boggling. That's where the cuts should start. My mother is a professor. One of my step fathers was a teacher. I have 2 friends who are teachers that I hang out with intimately. I think I am familiar with the viewpoints of teachers. They would say that about parents. But they would never conflate that issue with funding, which is abhorrently disparate. And my hackles raise about "good teachers" and "bad teachers". There are surely good and bad teachers, but lets try and fix the most obvious problems in the system first so we can make a valid assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|OneHeartBeat| Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 My mother is a professor. One of my step fathers was a teacher. I have 2 friends who are teachers that I hang out with intimately. I think I am familiar with the viewpoints of teachers. They would say that about parents. But they would never conflate that issue with funding, which is abhorrently disparate. And my hackles raise about "good teachers" and "bad teachers". There are surely good and bad teachers, but lets try and fix the most obvious problems in the system first so we can make a valid assessment. Would you consider the most obvious problem to be funding? If so, how would you fix it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdWarrior Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 You can call bullshit all you want and you'd be partly right. We live in a free country where free markets are a reality (generally). Med schools are competitive. P&G hiring is competitive. I'm all for raising the quality of public education and achieving more parity, but since our economic system is competitive, our educational system is likely to strive for competive results as well. And parents who seek to prepare their kids for the brutal reality of capitalism take the appropriate measures. Those Indian kids in Sycamore schools whose parents are busting their balls to get straight A's don't spend a nanosecond thinking about why the inner city kids are failing. They just know what Mom, Dad, and their teachers expect on the report card. I also don't think its a secret that professional athletics pays pretty well. Many, against all odds, think that is gonna be the ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 education is not something the free market should handle it should be completely socialized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|OneHeartBeat| Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 education is not something the free market should handle it should be completely socialized. It pretty much is and it performs poorly in many cases. I'm not advocating that it be privatized, but I really don't know how you fix the funding issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 This article is tangentially relevant re housing side of education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Can you find something to show where more is spent per student in the low income school districts. This does not pass initial muster to me. You are going to have to back that up with something reputable. I will have to search around a bit. I had the same reaction you did when I had read it. Some random article that I found and have not given much more than a glance. http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2011/06/06/School-Budgets-The-Worst-Education-Money-Can-Buy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 An NRA board member blamed the pastor killed in Charleston for the deaths of his members http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/19/an-nra-board-member-blamed-a-murdered-pastor-for-the-deaths-in-charleston-yes-really/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 It pretty much is and it performs poorly in many cases. I'm not advocating that it be privatized, but I really don't know how you fix the funding issue. You know all those schools we built and funded in Iraq & Afghanistan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdWarrior Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 education is not something the free market should handle it should be completely socialized. And there's the rub! I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but I can share an experience from living in Germany. In that socialized educational system, kids are "sorted" earlier than in the USA based upon scores and directed to appropriate training for their skill set. The cream of the crop gets put on a fast track to engineering or medicine. (This is how their system was explained to me by the Germans who worked in our Berlin Command HQ.) What is even worse is that in East Berlin, then run by the Communists, if you were known to attend church regularly, then you weren't "bought in" to Party values and your kids would never be admitted to higher education. Those Christians put their lives and prosperity on the line to worship. Yeah, lets just socialize everything! To those who have never seen it in practice, it sounds lovely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalRugby Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 And there's the rub! I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but I can share an experience from living in Germany. In that socialized educational system, kids are "sorted" earlier than in the USA based upon scores and directed to appropriate training for their skill set. The cream of the crop gets put on a fast track to engineering or medicine. (This is how their system was explained to me by the Germans who worked in our Berlin Command HQ.) What is even worse is that in East Berlin, then run by the Communists, if you were known to attend church regularly, then you weren't "bought in" to Party values and your kids would never be admitted to higher education. Those Christians put their lives and prosperity on the line to worship. Yeah, lets just socialize everything! To those who have never seen it in practice, it sounds lovely. Conventional wisdom is that top U.S. students fare well compared to their peers across the globe. According to this line of reasoning, the US doesn’t make it on the list of the top 25 countries in math (or top 15 in reading) because America has higher poverty and racial diversity than other countries do, which drags down the national average. Wrong. The latest 2012 PISA test results, released Dec. 3, 2013, show that the U.S. lags among 65 countries (or sub country entities) even after adjusting for poverty. Top U.S. students are falling behind even average students in Asia. I emphasize Asia because Asian countries (or sub entities) now dominate the top 10 in all subjects: math, reading and science. In descending order from the top spot in math, they are (1) Shanghai, (2) Singapore, (3) Hong Kong, (4) Taipei, (5) Korea, (6) Macao, (7) Japan, (8) Lichtenstein, (9) Switzerland and (10) the Netherlands $$$$: The OECD data show almost no link between spending on education and PISA test results. Wealthier nations tend to score better. But the amount of money that a nation spends on education doesn’t seem to matter much. The United States is one of the biggest spenders in education, spending $115,000 per student on average between the ages of 6 and 15. The Slovak Republic spends less than half that amount at achieves similar test scores. Only four countries spend more than the United States: Austria, Norway, Luxembourg and Switzerland. http://educationbythenumbers.org/content/top-us-students-fare-poorly-international-pisa-test-scores-shanghai-tops-world-finland-slips_693/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I never experienced that in DOD schools when I lived there, and I would suggest DOD schools are a form of socialized education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.