Guns in America

[oldschooler]

Just now, T-Dub said:

 

I don't see it as a "gun suicide" so much as a plain old suicide.  Nothing changes for me if she'd OD'd on pills or whatever.  The means aren't nearly as important to me as the cause, which unfortunately seems to be overshadowed because she did use a gun.

 

 

 

In the national debate over gun violence—a debate stoked by mass murders such as last December’s tragedy in a Newtown, Connecticut, elementary school—a glaring fact gets obscured: Far more people kill themselves with a firearm each year than are murdered with one. In 2010 in the U.S., 19,392 people committed suicide with guns, compared with 11,078 who were killed by others. According to Matthew Miller, associate director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center (HICRC) at Harvard School of Public Health, “If every life is important, and if you’re trying to save people from dying by gunfire, then you can’t ignore nearly two-thirds of the people who are dying.” Suicide is the 10th-leading cause of death in the U.S.; in 2010, 38,364 people killed themselves. In more than half of these cases, they used firearms. Indeed, more people in this country kill themselves with guns than with all other intentional means combined, including hanging, poisoning or overdose, jumping, or cutting. Though guns are not the most common method by which people attempt suicide, they are the most lethal. About 85 percent of suicide attempts with a firearm end in death. (Drug overdose, the most widely used method in suicide attempts, is fatal in less than 3 percent of cases.) Moreover, guns are an irreversible solution to what is often a passing crisis. Suicidal individuals who take pills or inhale car exhaust or use razors have time to reconsider their actions or summon help. With a firearm, once the trigger is pulled, there’s no turning back.

 

 

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/guns-suicide/

 

[T-Dub]

Again, you're focusing on the "how" iinstead of the "why".   Are suicidal people who don't use guns somehow less important?

[oldschooler]

6 hours ago, T-Dub said:

Again, you're focusing on the "how" iinstead of the "why".

 

 

 

This thread is about guns. 

[T-Dub]

3 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

 

This thread is about guns. 

 

Granted, but they aren't responsible for that poor girl's suicide.  It's an inanimate object, it has no agency of its own.  Like these mass shootings, it's a lot easier to focus on the make or model of weapon than it is to examine root causes.  The AR-15 doesn't make someone a white supremacist but unfortunately you can't effectively enforce a law saying people can't be racists.

[oldschooler]

Just now, T-Dub said:

 

Granted, but they aren't responsible for that poor girl's suicide.  It's an inanimate object, it has no agency of its own. 

 

 

 

Guns are made to kill with little effort or expertise. That's what they do. 

A lot of people are suicidal, especially teenagers. Guns give you very little to no chance 

of living to regret an attempt.

[T-Dub]

1 minute ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

 

Guns are made to kill with little effort or expertise. That's what they do. 

A lot of people are suicidal, especially teenagers. Guns give you very little to no chance 

of living to regret an attempt.

 

Neither does jumping off a bridge or high-rise.  I agree that a 17 year old kid should not have unsupervised access to a handgun but that handgun didn't make her kill herself.

[oldschooler]

31 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

Neither does jumping off a bridge or high-rise.  I agree that a 17 year old kid should not have unsupervised access to a handgun but that handgun didn't make her kill herself.

 

 

I never insinuated the gun killed her. My points are she was able to take a gun to school and 

kill herself during school hours, and people that attempt (and usually commit) suicide with guns is a huge problem

in this country. 

[T-Dub]

2 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

I never insinuated the gun killed her. My points are she was able to take a gun to school and 

kill herself during school hours, and people that attempt (and usually commit) suicide with guns is a huge problem

in this country. 

 

edited to illustrate my point

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

edited to illustrate my point

 

 

 

I guess you didn't read the quote from that article I posted, did you?

[T-Dub]

1 hour ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

 

I guess you didn't read the quote from that article I posted, did you?

 

I did, and it also neglects to mention methods like jumping off buildings because there's no walking that decision back, either, and focusing on guns is a lot easier than focusing on causes of suicide.  It's like focusing on the AR-15 instead of the far more common handgun (or even what drives these crimes) because a handgun ban isn't going to happen, but banning one specific model of semi-automatic rifle seems more feasible to people who don't know one rifle from another anyway.

 

Are we trying to prevent gun crimes & suicide, or are we just looking for ways to bolster an argument about gun control?   You know I'm for stricter/better gun control and enforcement but making an oblique sort of argument for one by rolling it into a much more emotional topic strikes me as deceptive.

[oldschooler]

15 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

I did, and it also neglects to mention methods like jumping off buildings because there's no walking that decision back, either, and focusing on guns is a lot easier than focusing on causes of suicide.  It's like focusing on the AR-15 instead of the far more common handgun (or even what drives these crimes) because a handgun ban isn't going to happen, but banning one specific model of semi-automatic rifle seems more feasible to people who don't know one rifle from another anyway.

 

Are we trying to prevent gun crimes & suicide, or are we just looking for ways to bolster an argument about gun control?   You know I'm for stricter/better gun control and enforcement but making an oblique sort of argument for one by rolling it into a much more emotional topic strikes me as deceptive.

 

 

 

http://lostallhope.com/suicide-statistics/us-methods-suicide

 

 

The AR 15 has been focused on because it's the preferred weapon for mass shooters.

 

Just like guns in general are being focused on by me because it is the preferred means of suicide

and it is very effective and doesn't give many second chances to get past whatever struggles

one may be having that makes them feel so hopeless.

 

 

We prevent more gun crimes and suicides with gun control. I don't see how using facts and 

reasoning is being deceptive. 

 

[T-Dub]

1 minute ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

 

 

The AR 15 has been focused on because it's the preferred weapon for mass shooters.

 

 

 

 

It's really not though, it's just that media calls any semi-automatic rifle with a composite stock an "AR-15".  Just like how every rifle in a gang shooting or robbery becomes an AK-47.  "AR-15" sounds like some scary military thing & has an emotional impact you just don't get from "Semi-Auto Rifle".   Vegas guy had a literal room full of different rifles.  

 

Question:  Do you think the young woman in that story doesn't kill herself if she doesn't have access to a handgun? You don't think "suffocation/hanging" would suddenly shoot way up if somehow firearms disappeared? One more; you don't think it'd be more productive to examine why someone kills themselves instead of how?

 

 

[oldschooler]

 

[oldschooler]

7 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

Question:  Do you think the young woman in that story doesn't kill herself if she doesn't have access to a handgun? You don't think "suffocation/hanging" would suddenly shoot way up if somehow firearms disappeared? One more; you don't think it'd be more productive to examine why someone kills themselves instead of how?

 

 

 

 

 

I have no idea if she would have still killed herself. Maybe she would have attempted.

But using a gun means you're pretty much committing and not just attempting.

 

Suffocation/hanging ,numbers would probably rise, but I would also think overall suicide rates would fall.

 

It doesn't have to be one or the other. Make it less easy and attempts less effective and focus on why also.

 

 

Question fro you. If you had a loved one that was suicidal would you rather them have

easy access to a gun or some rope?

[oldschooler]

 

[T-Dub]

2 hours ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

 

 

Question fro you. If you had a loved one that was suicidal would you rather them have

easy access to a gun or some rope?

 

Most of my relatives do have easy access to guns but yeah, rope, obviously.  

[oldschooler]

 

[oldschooler]

So many different threads this could have been posted in.

But since he mentioned bullets, figured this one would do.

 

First off, how in the wide world of fuck is this piece of shit a congressman?

Secondly, why does he think that only people in Red States have guns and/or know how to use them?

And lastly, the dumb motherfucker posted a meme that has HIS state of Iowa in the Blue states.

So he is inciting violence against his own constituents. Makes me fucking head hurt how some Americans

think this shit is worth "liking" or even "loving"

 

 

 

 

 

 

ETA: Because King obviously deleted his post on facebook

 

 

[oldschooler]

Did they even TRY thoughts and prayers?

 

 

 

 

[oldschooler]

 

[T-Dub]

On 3/18/2019 at 11:34 AM, oldschooler said:

So many different threads this could have been posted in.

But since he mentioned bullets, figured this one would do.

 

First off, how in the wide world of fuck is this piece of shit a congressman?

Secondly, why does he think that only people in Red States have guns and/or know how to use them?

And lastly, the dumb motherfucker posted a meme that has HIS state of Iowa in the Blue states.

So he is inciting violence against his own constituents. Makes me fucking head hurt how some Americans

think this shit is worth "liking" or even "loving"

 

 

 

 

 

 

ETA: Because King obviously deleted his post on facebook

 

 

 

Hey I get to post this again!

 

 

If that's what needs to happen to put this horseshit down for another 150 years, then that's what needs to happen.  

 

Nobody tell them the entire US military is only around 50% white.. and most of them aren't down with the white power horseshit either.

[oldschooler]

 

[T-Dub]

13 hours ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

If "the American people" were demanding this it would be done.  The fact is there are just as many American people who are opposed to ANY kind of gun legislation.   

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

If "the American people" were demanding this it would be done.  The fact is there are just as many American people who are opposed to ANY kind of gun legislation.   

 

 

Well, that's simply not true

 

 

Six in 10 Americans Support Stricter Gun Laws - Gallup News

 

According to the poll, 69 percent of Americans, including 85 percent of Democrats and 57 percent of Republicans, want strong or moderate restrictions placed on firearms. To stop gun violence, 55 percent said they wanted policies that make it tougher to own guns, while 10 percent said making firearm ownership easier would be better.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-anniversary-poll/americans-support-gun-control-but-doubt-lawmakers-will-act-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKCN1PX11I

 

[T-Dub]

27 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

Well, that's simply not true

 

 

Six in 10 Americans Support Stricter Gun Laws - Gallup News

 

According to the poll, 69 percent of Americans, including 85 percent of Democrats and 57 percent of Republicans, want strong or moderate restrictions placed on firearms. To stop gun violence, 55 percent said they wanted policies that make it tougher to own guns, while 10 percent said making firearm ownership easier would be better.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-anniversary-poll/americans-support-gun-control-but-doubt-lawmakers-will-act-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKCN1PX11I

 

 

 

So 55%, slightly more than half, according to a single poll from Reuters.  That's hardly conclusive, and not exactly an overwhelming majority.

 

Regardless, "the American people" still includes the other 45% .  Pretending like they don't exist is probably not a good way to win them over.