|BlackJesus| Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Andy’s ARM is the issue - The problem isn’t that Andy can’t win the majority of his games … he’s 40-23 as a starter and has gone to the playoffs every year as a pro. I have no doubt that if Andy is the QB next season that the team can go 10-6 and make the playoffs again. Andy is good enough to beat the bad teams and in today’s NFL that usually means you can get the wildcard spot at a minimum. - The problem isn’t that Andy is an asshole. I have heard of him referred to as “the nicest guy in the NFL”. He’s not a jackass, I’m sure he’s a great teammate, and I’m sure that guys on the team like him. He seems like a decent human being, and Marvin trusts him. That’s great. He has an attractive wife, a cute baby, and endearing ginger hair. That’s all fine. But when it’s 3rd and 14 that good personality doesn’t complete an out route across the field. - The problem isn’t Andy’s legs. He’s actually quite mobile and can run for a first down when he sees an opening. He even showed a few times that he can do the option or read zone in pistol formation. * - The problem is ANDY’s ARM. … While yes he possesses above average accuracy in the short yardage passes, he is willfully lacking when it comes to arm strength and the ability to put zip on the ball and throw it downfield. As I watched Andrew Luck throw passes today it dawned on me … “So that’s what an NFL pass is supposed to look like!” I had actually forgotten what an NFL QB throw was supposed to consistently look like and forgot how hard a CB’s job really is, because when Andy drops back he simply is not a threat to complete any of those long lazer like passes. Andy’s passes float, they wobble, they wiggle in the air, and they are usually too high or under thrown. Rarely do you see him throw a “fast ball” and there is a reason that coaches don’t have him throw the deep ball very often. Even on the times when he completes a long pass to AJ down the field, it is usually underthrown and AJ has to slow down for it, or the ball floats in the air and is only a TD because of an acrobatic AJ adjustment. Passing yards are not a good barometer of arm talent because if Andy dumps off a 2 yd screen that Gio takes for 70 yards, Andy gets credit for all 70 yards ... the same as if he threw a 65 yd bomb down the field. I'd love to see a computation of Andy's yards before the catch, it HAS to be the lowest of nearly every starter in the NFL. Now having an inadequate arm can be covered up for in some circumstances with a dominant defense and good running game and a ball control west coast offense, but the Bengals don’t have that and Andy’s arm is now a serious liability against good teams. No CB’s in the NFL fear an Andy Dalton long pass. This puts a heavy burden on the offense as nearly all defenders are within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage. The fact that the Bengals ran as well as they did this season is a testament to the OL, and their best runs today came when they brought in 7 OL – and at least matched size for size and didn't even pretend to pass. The reason though that the team has so many 2 yard runs and stuffs is because they usually come on first down, when the defense knows that Andy will not be able to throw it deep and the offense is in a normal pro set giving the false appearance of a pass (that the defense calls their bluff on by rushing the box). I feel that Andy’s contract and his position on the team are because of his intangibles and the fact he's kept Marvin and Co. employed all this time with playoff appearances … plus he’s a nice guy, he’s a leader in the locker room, teammates like him, Marvin trusts him, etc. He also is a serviceable QB who can beat the bad squads and get you to the playoffs every year. But his ARM then fails him and the team against a good defense because he CAN NOT complete many of the throws that an NFL QB needs to be able to make DOWN the field. It's not that he flops in the "big primetime / playoff games", it's that his arm is a liability against MOST good teams! Going forward something needs to be done. I’m not sure if his arm can be made much stronger … and if that is the case then I feel a replacement is necessary. I have been one of his defenders and wanted the team to draft him because he was a "winner" ... but winning 2/3 of your regular season games was great for a franchise emerging from the 'dark decade', but it's not cutting it any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Jersey Bengal Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I agree here wholeheartedly. I would cut bait with him right now. I don't care if we take a step back. Or at least have someone come in and challenge him for his job.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumble In the Jungle Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Now I am agreeing with you on this cause I noticed the same shit when luck was tossing fucking 40 yard passes like it ain't no thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Jersey Bengal Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Andy’s ARM is the issue - The problem isn’t that Andy can’t win the majority of his games … he’s 40-23 as a starter and has gone to the playoffs every year as a pro. I have no doubt that if Andy is the QB next season that the team can go 10-6 and make the playoffs again. Andy is good enough to beat the bad teams and in today’s NFL that usually means you can get the wildcard spot at a minimum. - The problem isn’t that Andy is an asshole. I have heard to him referred to as “the nicest guy in the NFL”. He’s not a jackass, I’m sure he’s a great teammate, and I’m sure that guys on the team like him. He seems like a decent human being, and Marvin trusts him. That’s great. He has an attractive wife, a cute baby, and endearing ginger hair. That’s all fine. But when it’s 3rd and 14 that good personality doesn’t complete an out route across the field. - The problem isn’t Andy’s legs. He’s actually quite mobile and can run for a first down when he sees an opening. He even showed a few times that he can do the option or read zone in pistol formation. * - The problem is ANDY’s ARM. … While yes he possesses above average accuracy in the short yardage passes, he is willfully lacking when it comes to arm strength and the ability to put zip on the ball and throw it downfield. As I watched Andrew Luck throw passes today it dawned on me … “So that’s what an NFL pass is supposed to look like!” I had actually forgotten what an NFL QB throw was supposed to consistently look like and forgot how hard a CB’s job really is, because when Andy drops back he simply is not a threat to complete any of those long lazer like passes. Andy’s passes float, they wobble, they wiggle in the air, and they are usually too high or under thrown. Rarely do you see him throw a “fast ball” and there is a reason that coaches don’t have him throw the deep ball very often. Even on the times when he completes a long pass to AJ down the field, it is usually underthrown and AJ has to slow down for it, or the ball floats in the air and is only a TD because of an acrobatic AJ adjustment. Passing yards are not a good barometer of arm talent because if Andy dumps off a 2 yd screen that Gio takes for 70 yards, Andy gets credit for all 70 yards ... the same as if he threw a 65 yd bomb down the field. I'd love to see a computation of Andy's yards before the catch, it HAS to be the lowest of nearly every starter in the NFL. Now having an inadequate arm can be covered up for in some circumstances with a dominant defense and good running game and a ball control west coast offense, but the Bengals don’t have that and Andy’s arm is now a serious liability against good teams. No CB’s in the NFL fear an Andy Dalton long pass. This puts a heavy burden on the offense as nearly all defenders are within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage. The fact that the Bengals ran as well as they did this season is a testament to the OL, and their best runs today came when they brought in 7 OL – and at least matched size for size and didn't even pretend to pass. The reason though that the team has so many 2 yard runs and stuffs is because they usually come on first down, when the defense knows that Andy will not be able to throw it deep and the offense is in a normal pro set giving the false appearance of a pass (that the defense calls their bluff on by rushing the box). I feel that Andy’s contract and his position on the team are because of his intangibles and the fact he's kept Marvin and Co. employed all this time with playoff appearances … plus he’s a nice guy, he’s a leader in the locker room, teammates like him, Marvin trusts him, etc. He also is a serviceable QB who can beat the bad squads and get you to the playoffs every year. But his ARM then fails him and the team against a good defense because he CAN NOT complete many of the throws that an NFL QB needs to be able to make DOWN the field. It's not that he flops in the "big primetime / playoff games", it's that his arm is a liability against MOST good teams! Going forward something needs to be done. I’m not sure if his arm can be made much stronger … and if that is the case then I feel a replacement is necessary. I have been one of his defenders and wanted the team to draft him because he was a "winner" ... but winning 2/3 of your regular season games was great for a franchise emerging from the 'dark decade', but it's not cutting it any more. I was one of the Bengals fans who was hoping we would pick Teddy Bridgewater last year in the draft. We could have drafted him and it would have been the right thing to do.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
membengal Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 If you want him gone, you need to remove the coaches who put him there and keep doubling down on him. I believe I was on record for wanting Bridgewater and not extending Dalton and seeing how this year played out. And now we are here. Cannot address Dalton until you address the regime that has invested in him and keeps investing in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|BlackJesus| Posted January 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 If you want him gone, you need to remove the coaches who put him there and keep doubling down on him. The coaches are a separate issue. But I don't believe that any coach can win playoff games with a QB who can not throw a pass over 10 yards down the field. In some ways it's remarkable this team does as well as they do in the regular season (thankfully the NFL has a lot of bad defenses). Sit and think for a minute, when was the last time Andy Dalton threw a ball that made you sit up and think "damn, nice throw!" ... Every Andy Dalton pass is a short pass to the flat or something within 10 yards. I wouldn't even object to a coaching change at this point, but that still wouldn't fix the issue of Andy's lack of arm strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Montana Bengal| Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 A couple of times I thought he was trying to throw an int today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|BlackJesus| Posted January 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontPushMe Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Now I am agreeing with you on this cause I noticed the same shit when luck was tossing fucking 40 yard passes like it ain't no thing. That perfect 40 yard throw for a TD as he was falling down was a pass Dalton wouldnt be able to complete if he was standing in the pocket with no real pressure and time to step into his throw. We're in a tough spot, because we have an above average qb signed long term. He's never going to do anything so bad like jay cutler that demands a change, but he sure as hell isn't winning a super bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|BlackJesus| Posted January 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
membengal Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 The coaches are a separate issue. But I don't believe that any coach can win playoff games with a QB who can not throw a pass over 10 yards down the field. In some ways it's remarkable this team does as well as they do in the regular season (thankfully the NFL has a lot of bad defenses). Sit and think for a minute, when was the last time Andy Dalton threw a ball that made you sit up and think "damn, nice throw!" ... Every Andy Dalton pass is a short pass to the flat or something within 10 yards. I wouldn't even object to a coaching change at this point, but that still wouldn't fix the issue of Andy's lack of arm strength. The coaches are not a separate issue. They chose Dalton. They continue to choose Dalton. New coaches would, presumably, see what we all see and bring a different QB. You want to move on from Dalton? You want them to move on from Marvin - because, literally, Marvin apparently has no problems with Dalton's arm. Get Marvin gone, or, otherwise, Dalton isn't going anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elijah15 Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 The last time dalton threw a beautiful pass that i loved was against seattle in 2011 to AJ Green and this year he had one to AJ against the saints on 3rd and long but those are the only 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Jameis Winston was the only QB I watched who threw NFL caliber passes into very small windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 The coaches are a separate issue. But I don't believe that any coach can win playoff games with a QB who can not throw a pass over 10 yards down the field. In some ways it's remarkable this team does as well as they do in the regular season (thankfully the NFL has a lot of bad defenses). Sit and think for a minute, when was the last time Andy Dalton threw a ball that made you sit up and think "damn, nice throw!" ... Every Andy Dalton pass is a short pass to the flat or something within 10 yards. I wouldn't even object to a coaching change at this point, but that still wouldn't fix the issue of Andy's lack of arm strength. I don't see the same level of preparation or professionalism with our team and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkansas Bengal Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Jameis Winston was the only QB I watched who threw NFL caliber passes into very small windows. Yeah, but he might rape your daughter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Alice Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 If I hadn't seen Amdy Dalton complete a zillion out routes to A.J. Green over the last 4 years, I'd probably agree. Andy Dalton doesn't have arm strength like Matt Stafford or Aaron Rodgers. He never will. However, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees don't have that kind of arm strength either. Manning doesn't anymore and Brees never did. Is the deep out ever going to be the back bone of an Andy Dalton led offense? Nope. No more than it is for either of those guys. Dalton set the team record for yardage last year. He didn't do it throwing shovel passes to Gio Bernard. He did it throwing to receivers that got open. I honestly don't know what you guys are looking at. Minus A.J. Green, there's no one on this team that gets open with ANY regularity. The biggest armed quarterback on the planet can't comsistenly compete deep outs to a receivers that have a defender draped all over them. I've said this a dozen times before. Mo Sanu is a nice weapon in the slot because he can sit down in a zone and out muscle defenders. Outside, he's useless, because he's not fast enough to run past a corner and not nimble enough get free underneath. When teams play off man against him, he disappears. Brandon Tate is a special teamer. If one person is to blame for this year's offense, it's either Mike Sheppard or Hue Jackson. They simply have not put anybody (other than A.J.) out there that can get open. Could Rodgers, Brady, and Manning have done better throwing to this group? Yep. But the list of others that could have is short. Getting Green and Jones back is going to go a long way toward "fixing" the offense. Pining for more arm strength is not. I've got news for you, guys that can accurately throw a football really, really hard are usually already starting quarterbacks somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Alice Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 The last time dalton threw a beautiful pass that i loved was against seattle in 2011 to AJ Green and this year he had one to AJ against the saints on 3rd and long but those are the only 2. Well damn, he's thrown for over 10,000 yards since then. That's an awful lot of "not beautiful" passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackettj22 Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I was at the game so I don't know if they showed a replay, Dalton threw a beautiful deep ball to Little today and Little stopped running his route. It was unfortunate and set up perfect. Would have been 6, assuming Little catches it. Jameis Winston was the only QB I watched who threw NFL caliber passes into very small windows. No thanks. Not only is he a head case, his mechanics are very flawed. His throw has a windup and takes too long. Not a chance he's successful in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Alice Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Now I am agreeing with you on this cause I noticed the same shit when luck was tossing fucking 40 yard passes like it ain't no thing. That's why Andrew Luck was the #1 overall pick in the draft. If you want one like him, that's where you find it. Who's down for 1-15 next year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.A.B. Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 That's why Andrew Luck was the #1 overall pick in the draft. If you want one like him, that's where you find it. Who's down for 1-15 next year? I am. Wed get rid of Marvin AND Andy. Better than 5 straight wild card losses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COB Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I doubt AJ Green will sign a second contract that has Andy throwing passes to him. I base that on his body language and facial expressions. He looks to be having a hard time dealing with the adversity that comes with being Andy Dalton's primary target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyrid Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Andy is one of the 20 or so best QBs in the world. That isn't enough to beat one of the 5 best QBs in the world (Luck) unless the rest of the team is a good amount better than the rest of the opposing team. Today our QB was worse than theirs, but so were the guys surrounding him. They had equal/better lines and better skill position guys. And Luck>>>Dalton. There are really only 2 possible solutions: 1. Try to build up the rest of the team around him to a dominant level (think 2000 Ravens) and hope that enough of them stay healthy that we can win with a defense, run and get it to legit WR/TE playmakers plan (which was impossible today). Add a stud LB next to Vontaze or a stud DE opposite Dunlap in the 1st round. 2. Try to hit a homerun by finding the very rare elite QB outside of the top 10 of the draft (use a late round 1 pick). I think either are viable plans but neither are real likely to work. And you can't really try to do both plans at once (if you are going the 1st route, you need to draft a stud non-QB in the 1st). You just have to decide which is more likely to work (impossible to tell without knowing what QBs are going to be available at #21) and go with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Alice Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I doubt AJ Green will sign a second contract that has Andy throwing passes to him. I base that on his body language and facial expressions. He looks to be having a hard time dealing with the adversity that comes with being Andy Dalton's primary target. Smh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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